Sooo..., how long will it be until the bombs start raining down in Iran?

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I give it till say....., end of March 2010.


The only thing that can stop it is a MASSIVE global shift in Eurasia.


2010 is gearing up to be a pretty fucking exciting year.

US/Iran/Israel/Russia

Russia/Baltics/NATO

Israel/Lebanon/Iran/Syria

Yemen/Saudi Arabia/Iran

Armenia/Azerbaijan/Turkey/Russia

US/Pakistan/Afghanistan/India

Burma/China/US/ASEAN

Angola/Zimbabwe/South Africa



Anyway, back to the bombing of Iran....
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pocket_cup

Likes Dirt
im must be unfamiliar with current affairs in Iran (unless its nothing new).
maybe i should stop watching ACA, (the stories are just addictive and shocking! my personal fav was "tonight we reveal the seedy underbelly of shopping trolly collecting":eek::eek::eek::eek:
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
I give it till say....., end of March 2010.

2010 is gearing up to be a pretty fucking exciting year.

US/Iran/Israel/Russia
Do you see anyone really stepping in here in a regional sense? Obviously Russia and the US will get all puffy chested on the issue, but I have the impression the Arab world is quite partial to the idea of the Israel giving those uppity Persians a touch up. Possibly because the Israeli war machine will be smashing someone else for a change, and probably because the Persians spend so much time and money stirring trouble in Arab affairs. Will the response come from Iran only or will Hezbollah and Hamas stand by the country that funds and trains them?

And if the trouble does start, will the US be able to abstain? They have all these UAV drones in Afghanistan, the temptation to fly a few over the border into Iran.......
 

24alpha

mtbpicsonline.com
Does anyone really think the US can spread themselves any thinner than they already are in another war? Maybe the Americans do!
 
Does anyone really think the US can spread themselves any thinner than they already are in another war? Maybe the Americans do!
Not unless they call on us and England or they have another conscription. Maybe America should keep their noses out of other people fights. Stop going looking for them and wait for them to come.
 

Morgan123

Likes Dirt
Am I the only Australian feeling a bit left out? Imo we go for kiwiland, no real need for that island we can name it 'Operation Valkiwi'.

But seriously it should be pretty interesting, doubt US can go any further. Do they actually have more troops overseas then at home?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
would appreciate some news links / articles to these two.
The Houthi rebels on the the north western border are conducting an insurgency against the state and across the border in to KSA. Supposedly they are maginalised, blah blah. It is Iran that is supporting the rebels with arms and hezbollah fighters via the coast. KSA navy is trying to blockade the coast line and there are Iranian ships in the region there under the pretense of Somalian piracy but are supplying the smugglers with information as to where the KSA ships are.

It is Iran expanding itself in the region and creating distractions so other players have their hands full leaving Iran more room to do its thing at home.



Turkey is expanding in power, Russia is resurgent. Turkey and Armenia have historical issues (some little thing about genocide, no biggy) and have had closed borders for ages. Azerbaijan is Turkey's ally and Russia basically supports Armenia. Armenia owns/controls an enclave in Azer called Nagorno Karabach where there have been countless battles already fought.

Turkey has always said that it would never improve relations with Armenia until they sorted out NK with Azer. However lately there has been movement and Turk wants to be friends with Arm and Azer is afraid that it will be forgotten. Azer has been making substantial wealth from energy sales (think BTC and Iran) and has been doing a lot of military spending (from the Russians who are playing both sides).

Turkey doesn't want an enemy on its doorstep as it spends the next few decades expanding in the region, Azer doesn't want to get left out in the cold , Turkey doesn't want shit with Russia and in the middle of all this you have the US fucking around in Georgia who had a war last August.

You can see the tensions in the regional dynamic, yes? Azer is threatening to launch a major offensive in NK if Turkey looks like they will desert them and that means that Russia will be dragged in to it on Arm's side. Azer is looking to join the CIS to try and nullify the Russia threat....., etc.






Do you see anyone really stepping in here in a regional sense? Obviously Russia and the US will get all puffy chested on the issue, but I have the impression the Arab world is quite partial to the idea of the Israel giving those uppity Persians a touch up. Possibly because the Israeli war machine will be smashing someone else for a change, and probably because the Persians spend so much time and money stirring trouble in Arab affairs. Will the response come from Iran only or will Hezbollah and Hamas stand by the country that funds and trains them?

And if the trouble does start, will the US be able to abstain? They have all these UAV drones in Afghanistan, the temptation to fly a few over the border into Iran.......
Israel doesn't have the military capability to go it alone. IT won't get fly over rights from Iraq, Jordan and Turkey and doesn't have the capacity to do it without. Any and all sea going vessels need Egypt's permission to traverse the Suez, which has been done recently but can be pulled at any time.

Short end is that Israel doesn't have the capacity to go it alone and needs to drag the US in. But, they have the ability to do that. As soon as Israel launches the first missile the Iranians will mine the Straits of Hormuz and just as the world is recovering from the financial crisis oil goes up to $250 a barrel. The US cannot allow that and are drawn in. Plus, Iran will never accept that Israel isn't acting without the US.

So the US has told the Israelis that if there is no diplomatic solution there will be crippling sanctions come december. Those sanctions are cutting the supply of petrol. Iran has lots of oil and gas but it has very limited refining capacity and hardly any of its infrastructure runs on gas (it exports gas to Azer who turns it in to electricity and sells it back to Iran).

However Russia has a beef with the US. Ever since the fall of the USSR the US has been fucking around in the area that Russia sees as its zone of exclusive influence (Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Romania/Moldova, Former Yugoslavia/Kosovo, Georgia and to an extent Afghanistan..., which then places bases and supply routes through Central Asia). Russia wants the US to GTFO and uses Iran as a lever to do that.

Russia supplies nuke technology to Iran (Bushehr and thousands of scientists), is threatening to send S-300 air defense systems that make air strikes on Iranian nuke sites extremely difficult and offers Iran veto support in the UN Sec. Council. So when the US tries to place UN sanctions on Iran cutting their petrol supply, Russia vetoes the UN bill. So US says fuck it, us and the Europeans will create our own sanctions regime cutting our supplies and if any other company from Malaysia, Switzerland or whoever tries to ignore us we will make sure that no bank lends them money, no insurance company will insure them and most ports in the world won't accept them.

Russia says "yeah? Give a fuck! I'll use my own oil supplies, my own trucks, trains and pipelines, own insurance companies and do it myself". At this point China takes courage and does the same. Thus, the US efforts fall apart and Russia says that if the US wants Russia to stop supplying nukes, stop supplying defenses and to come on board with the sanctions the US has to GTFO of Poland and Georgia (if the US does that the Baltics and all the others get cold feet and start friendlying up to Russia again as they have long memories of what it was like only 20 years ago under Russia if you tried to resist).

So there's the pickle.

Israel CAN NOT live with a nuclear armed Iran, nor can it live with an S-300 armed Iran. Israel's red lines are literally months away and they have no choice but to act. If they do, Iran mines the H. Straits and says to US to call its dogs off or oil costs will kill the world and US either has to go in head first or make MAJOR compensations in Eurasia that will set in progress a massive shift in the region that sees Russia turn back to pre-1989 strengths (to a point).

Iran also has a few other responses up its sleeve. IT can try its best and do a decent job of destabilising Iraq at a very fragile time (especially politically speaking as they can barely agree on an election format, the Kurds want to break away and you still have Islamists doing their thing..., not to mention a nice long border that their troops can roll over). Iran can also destabilse Afghanistan to a large degree really fucking with the Americans. Hezbollah also has a significant amount of shelf attacks that they can pull out at any time in South America, the US, Canada, Africa and more than likely Australia to target Jewish and US interests.

The Hezbollah/Hamas angle is an afterthought. If Israel is existentially threatened there will be no care for anything and Lebanon will be a pill of bricks and bodies, same goes for Gaza. You have to remember ANY ACTION IN IRAN WILL NOT INCLUDE TROOPS OVER AND ABOVE SPECIAL FORCES TEAMS.

Any attack on Iran will be from the air and the ocean with small amounts of spec ops in country. That leaves Israel free to deal with Hezb/Hamas and the US free to continue on in Afghanistan and deal with what Iran throws at it in Iraq. However, the US would much rather this all just go away as it needs to deal with Afghan/Pak and wants the fuck out of Iraq. US has economy and health care issues to deal with and doesn't want to waste any more time and money in wars.


As for the rest of the Arabs, of course KSA wants Iran fucked up because they are mortal Shia - Sunni enemies. Iraq is partially now a Shia state, Pakistan is so fucked up itself it can't afford an opinion, Israel is doing its best to drag Syria away from Iran and Hezb and is dangling the Golan in front of them, Egypt has relations with ISrael and would like to be the Arab leader themselves and Turkey is a natural competitor to Iran and wants to lead the Islamic world in a few decades. So no one will come to their aid and most of all, no one wants the fuckers to have nukes because then Iran will have it over them!

However, these countries still have their own domestic concerns and can't be seen in league with the infidels killing other Muslims or even tacitly supporting it. The only thing going here is the Shia Sunni divide but that only goes so far.



I really couldn't be fucked proof reading all of that. Appolagees if their is any speeling mistaks, grammer errers or confewsing for the bits that are strukchural complycated.
 

Wellsey

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Does anyone really think the US can spread themselves any thinner than they already are in another war? Maybe the Americans do!
Let's not forget the U.S has twelve carrier battle groups. They control the Atlantic and the Pacific, and as such pretty much all the shipping on the globe. The U.S Navy is more powerful than the navies of every other country in the world combined.

The U.S have the only inter-continental bombers left on the planet (aside from a few busted arse Tupelovs in the old USSR), B-1's, B-2's and B-52's.

They have 1.4 million active military personel, and another 1.4 million reserves. They have approx 370 000 currently deployed on duty outside the U.S.

So, yeah, they probably can stretch themselves a bit thinner.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
...............Israel doesn't have the military capability to go it alone. IT won't get fly over rights from Iraq, Jordan and Turkey and doesn't have the capacity to do it without...............
Agreed on most counts, I think the phrase the Arab world is looking for to overlook any Israel attack against Iran is 'plausible deniability'. The one thing the really suprised me about the last Israel jaunt into Gaza was the deafening silence of the Arab Council. Egypt actually threated to attack Hamas if they tried to breakout across the Egyptian border. It strikes me that the Arab community is starting to see Israel as a neighbourhood bully that will sit quietly if left alone, and perhaps a case of " the enemy of my enemies is my friend". Perhaps if they just leave Israel be then the Arabs get to keep their Armies functional and Israel can be used as the gun for hire.

Israel doesn't need fly over rights, they just need inaction if they do fly over. The fact that the major proportion if Israel's military is close attack oriented and therefore useless against Iran is the excuse Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt can use. Since only the long range assets of the IDF will be deployed the neighbouring countries can trumpet about violation of airspace and deploy their Army to conduct war games 2km from the Israeli borders while actually doing nothing to stop Israel doing what the Arab world needs someone to do. They can give Israel a deadline to stop the fly overs but either use a ridiculously long time frame or just not report to the population the real level of aircraft traffic. Avoiding a towelling by the remaining mass of the IDF but plenty of Arab chest puffing and denigrating the evil Jew is probably all the action the Arab citizens of those countries need, especially when its not even Arabs getting shot at, only Persians.

As for SF, Israel will have their own on the ground but I think that is where the US will slip into the game, along with our SAS and a few other assets of the deniable ilk. White men are just like Asians, we all look the same. Some camouflage pants and a bit of face paint and the Jews will have laser targeting stations all over Iran. We're not talking about a few Spectre runs over some Iranian infrastructure, nothing the Russians will be able to validate to the UN Security Council without violating their intelligence sources. Mossad will already know where everything is anyway so the CIA just need to leak a few titbits into the mix, perhaps quietly fund a few rewards for information about the locations of key people and Ahmadinejad will soon be hiding from the Basij militia.
 

Slowman

Likes Dirt
I think all of this ignores the western political climates. How popular would another "regime change" war in the ME be? Iraq has turned into a monumental disaster based on a pretext of WMD which has been revealed as a politically motivated lie to sell to the western people to rally popular support.

Abe Lincoln said "you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." The US people's eyes are wide open now. There will be no popular support for another war and if the US don't go, no one else will either. Iran would have to do something really stupid like launch an open attack on Iraq. I don't see it happening. Maybe send in 300 Spartans to hold them at Thermopylae if they keep expanding :D
 

sean767

Cannon Fodder
I think all of this ignores the western political climates. How popular would another "regime change" war in the ME be? Iraq has turned into a monumental disaster based on a pretext of WMD which has been revealed as a politically motivated lie to sell to the western people to rally popular support.

Abe Lincoln said "you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." The US people's eyes are wide open now. There will be no popular support for another war and if the US don't go, no one else will either. Iran would have to do something really stupid like launch an open attack on Iraq. I don't see it happening. Maybe send in 300 Spartans to hold them at Thermopylae if they keep expanding :D
Absolutely agreed. If Bush were still President then it might be possible...public opinion would still be heavily against it (what's the approval rating for the Iraq War in the U.S. now, something like 20%?), but Bush would do it anyway--Obama WON'T. Don't forget that there's one thing a first term President wants above all else: a second term. It would kill him to go after Iran for anything short of them firing off a nuke, and popular opinion in the U.S. is definitely turning against Israel: at this point THEY are starting to be seen as the genocidal lunatics trying to wipe out a whole group of people (Palestinians) for nothing resembling a good reason. It's no longer just the anti-Semites and Arabs who hate Israel, now a lot of other people in the mainstream are starting to get disgusted with their tactics (I've got no problems with Jews, but the Israeli government is another story--sort of like the U.S. in that I've got no problem with the American people as a whole but the government is another story. Note that I AM American, by the way).
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I think all of this ignores the western political climates. How popular would another "regime change" war in the ME be?
Who said anything about regime change?

Iraq has turned into a monumental disaster based on a pretext of WMD which has been revealed as a politically motivated lie to sell to the western people to rally popular support.
Iran has nuclear enrichment plants, they just revealed another one at Qom that they were keeping secret and announced that they will build another 10 over the next two years. The US isn't selling anything, the US doesn't want the conflict, they are being pushed in to it reluctantly.

if the US don't go, no one else will either.
I'm gathering you didn't read what I wrote above. It won't be the US that launches the initial strike, it will more than likely be Israel if the US can't make Russia shift its support for Tehran. I say again, the US doesn't want military action.

Iran would have to do something really stupid like launch an open attack on Iraq.
Iranian soldiers moved in and occupied part of Iraq's oil region on Friday.


Absolutely agreed. If Bush were still President then it might be possible...public opinion would still be heavily against it (what's the approval rating for the Iraq War in the U.S. now, something like 20%?), but Bush would do it anyway--Obama WON'T.
Again, read what I wrote above and keep in mind it is not my opinion but that of the NSC and Pentagon. Obama doesn't want confrontation he is being forced in to it.
and popular opinion in the U.S. is definitely turning against Israel: at this point THEY are starting to be seen as the genocidal lunatics trying to wipe out a whole group of people (Palestinians) for nothing resembling a good reason.
1) no it's not, 2) Israel doesn't run on popular opinion in the US it runs on a lobby.



You guys don't seem to understand what is happening. Iran IS building a nuke, which they all but admit to, it's not US propaganda. Israel cannot allow that to happen because it threatens their existance and they will soon force the US into a position where the US must support Israeli strikes to destroy the nuclear enrichment plants just like what the Israelis did to Oserik in Iraq.

There will be no invasion, it will be all air strikes and sea launched missile strikes. The only thing that can stop this is if the US can get Iran to stop their enrichment or proper sanctions on Iran and read my above stuff as to why that is highly unlikely.

There is a dynamic in play that is forcing this issue, it is not a politically based situation.
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BM Epic

Eats Squid
Who said anything about regime change?



Iran has nuclear enrichment plants, they just revealed another one at Qom that they were keeping secret and announced that they will build another 10 over the next two years. The US isn't selling anything, the US doesn't want the conflict, they are being pushed in to it reluctantly.



I'm gathering you didn't read what I wrote above. It won't be the US that launches the initial strike, it will more than likely be Israel if the US can't make Russia shift its support for Tehran. I say again, the US doesn't want military action.



Iranian soldiers moved in and occupied part of Iraq's oil region on Friday.


Again, read what I wrote above and keep in mind it is not my opinion but that of the NSC and Pentagon. Obama doesn't want confrontation he is being forced in to it.

1) no it's not, 2) Israel doesn't run on popular opinion in the US it runs on a lobby.



You guys don't seem to understand what is happening. Iran IS building a nuke, which they all but admit to, it's not US propaganda. Israel cannot allow that to happen because it threatens their existance and they will soon force the US into a position where the US must support Israeli strikes to destroy the nuclear enrichment plants just like what the Israelis did to Oserik in Iraq.

There will be no invasion, it will be all air strikes and sea launched missile strikes. The only thing that can stop this is if the US can get Iran to stop their enrichment or proper sanctions on Iran and read my above stuff as to why that is highly unlikely.

There is a dynamic in play that is forcing this issue, it is not a politically based situation.
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Iran paraded enriched uranium(u235) to the public a little while back, which looks like a sign of things to come!..All you need is this very thing(app:9-12kgs of u235) and a conventional artillery gunshot and you have a nuclear bomb, allthough a very inefficient bomb, but a bomb all the same!
Thanks for that post Johnny, makes for interesting and scary reading, this will be a test of Obama's presidency that will be forced upon him by the looks of it!
The state of play makes the cuban missile crisis look very simple, there seems to be a fine web of intrigues at work here!..keep the reports coming!
 

Slowman

Likes Dirt
Who said anything about regime change?



Iran has nuclear enrichment plants, they just revealed another one at Qom that they were keeping secret and announced that they will build another 10 over the next two years. The US isn't selling anything, the US doesn't want the conflict, they are being pushed in to it reluctantly.



I'm gathering you didn't read what I wrote above. It won't be the US that launches the initial strike, it will more than likely be Israel if the US can't make Russia shift its support for Tehran. I say again, the US doesn't want military action....
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I read it, perhaps I just don't believe it is as dire as you're supposing. Nobody wanted China to gain nuclear capability, it could have been dire but it wasn't. Hell North Korea is more of a worry. India & Pakistan were also unwelcome members to the nuke club...ah what's one more?

The Bush administration started with a bunch of rhetoric against Iran, which probably started their belligerence. It will take some work to reverse that...and maybe they mean to test the limits with Obama. I think all of this is just posturing and not an inevitable path to war.

"regime change" was in quotes for a reason, insert any pretext you like.

Am I being complacent? Perhaps
 
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smeck

Likes Dirt
I read it, perhaps I just don't believe it is as dire as you're supposing. Nobody wanted China to gain nuclear capability, it could have been dire but it wasn't. Hell North Korea is more of a worry. India & Pakistan were also unwelcome members to the nuke club...ah what's one more?

The Bush administration started with a bunch of rhetoric against Iran, which probably started their belligerence. It will take some work to reverse that...and maybe they mean to test the limits with Obama. I think all of this is just posturing and not an inevitable path to war.

"regime change" was in quotes for a reason, insert any pretext you like.

Am I being complacent? Perhaps
Irans belligerence started sometime in 1979 after the deposing of the US friendly Shah during the Islamic revolution. This isn't a radical regime reliant on support like North Korea which depend on aid to survive, this is a radical regime bent on regional supremacy. There are no countries in the middle east that can handle Iran with nukes. These are not Arabs, these are Persians, the only thing they share with the Arab nations is religon, they don't even speak the same language.

They are suppported by Russia, though Russia's capability to support them in confilct must be debateable, especially given the Russian economy. Russia will be determined to maintain a presence in the region, though considering the Russian military has been reduced to invading Georgia and fighting Chechans they wouldn't want to get into a big fight so far from home.

........It would kill him to go after Iran for anything short of them firing off a nuke, and popular opinion in the U.S. is definitely turning against Israel: at this point THEY are starting to be seen as the genocidal lunatics trying to wipe out a whole group of people (Palestinians) for nothing resembling a good reason. It's no longer just the anti-Semites and Arabs who hate Israel, now a lot of other people in the mainstream are starting to get disgusted with their tactics..........
Strangely enough large portions of the world couldn't give two hoots what the US Government thinks, how very American to think Obama is actually the key to this. He has a lot of sway in this issue, but Israel and the Arabs will do this with or without the US, and remember Israel provides a lot of military technology to the US and Mossad supply their intelligence for the region so the US will be very hesitant to speak out against Israel. The US will mostly abstain from this Iran situation, Obama doesn't want a fight, he's a Nobel Peace Laureate after all. Israel will do the work, and they couldn't give two hoots if the world see them as genocidal lunatics. Not many countries got attacked quite as often as Israel in their foundation years, you can understand they're quite jittery about countries advocating the removal of Israel from the map.

Also take note of the Arab Council's silence during the Gaza insertion. It might not be a stretch to claim all Arabs hate Israel, but there's a difference between hating them and agreeing with what they are trying to do. The Arabs hate Hamas and Hezbollah, and when Hamas called for a summit in support of Gaza against Israel the only Arabs that turned up where Syria, Hamas, and Hezbollah, with financiers Iran. When Hamas called for the Egyptian Defence Force to get involved during the Gaza stoush the Egyptian Government stated the EDF existed for the defence of Egypt, against Hamas if necessary.
 
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Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
Thought this might be of interest for this topic.

Defense News said:
Iran Test-Fires Improved Extended-Range Missile
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 16 Dec 2009 06:21

TEHRAN - A defiant Iran has test-fired an improved version of its Sejil 2 medium-range missile, which it says can reach targets inside Israel, prompting a sharp rebuke from Britain.

"It hit the defined target," state television reported without giving further details.

The two-stage Sejil, powered by solid fuel, launched Dec. 16 is capable according to Iran of traveling 1,240 miles (2,000 kilometers), which would put Israel, most Arab states and parts of Europe, including much of Turkey, within range.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the test of the missile was a matter of "serious concern" and makes the case for "moving further on sanctions."

Brown is in Copenhagen for the U.N. climate summit, where he discussed the development with U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

"I have expressed to him and he has also expressed concern about the test of a long-range missile by Iran," Brown said, according to his Downing Street office in London.

"This is a matter of serious concern to the international community and it does make the case for us moving further on sanctions.

"We will treat this with the seriousness it deserves."

Iranian Defence Minister Ahmad Vahidi said the test was aimed at bolstering Iran's defenses and insisted missiles would not be used for offensive purposes.

"The missile test that we witness today is one ring of our defense capability chain in line with increasing the armed forces' deterrent power," Vahidi was quoted as saying by the Fars news agency.

Iran's missile capability, he added, is "merely defensive and for peace, stability and calm in the region and will not be used against any country."

Vahidi said the latest version of the Sejil was "impossible to destroy" due to the "very high speed" at which it hits the ground. It also has anti-radar capability.

The United States and its regional ally Israel have not ruled out a military option to stop Tehran's controversial nuclear drive.

Iran has in the past threatened to target U.S. bases in the region and to block the strategic Gulf Strait of Hormuz waterway for oil tankers if its nuclear sites are attacked.

Iran is under three sets of U.N. sanctions for its refusal to suspend enrichment and risks a further round after rejecting a U.N.-brokered deal to send its low enriched uranium abroad to be further refined into fuel for a research reactor.

Enrichment lies at the heart of fears over Iran's controversial atomic work as the process to make nuclear fuel can also be used to make the fissile core of an atom bomb in much higher purifications.

Further pressuring Iran, the U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved sanctions legislation Dec. 15 aimed at forcing Iran to freeze the program by depriving it of petrol.

The measure would empower U.S. President Barack Obama to effectively block firms that supply Iran with refined petroleum products, or the ability to import or produce them at home, from doing business in the United States.

In late September, Iran test-fired the previous version of Sejil 2 (Lethal Stone), along with another similar-range weapon, the Shahab-3, and a host of shorter-range missiles as part of a military exercise.

The tests, which came ahead of key talks between Iran and six world powers in Geneva, drew the ire of the West, with Washington describing them as "provocative."
 
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