Wheel build advice

[brisneyland]

Hey kids,
Want to re-build the wheels on my 29er.

Current wheels are Lefty front hub/DT 340 rear, unknown spokes, Stans Flow hubs.

I want a lighter wheel set, so Crest rims are on the cards. Would like a lighter, SS specific rear hub but there aren't many affordable options out there. Not much weight to be saved on the front hub.

Unsure how to proceed with spokes - Revolutions are pretty light, CXrays are supposed to be pretty strong, but they're pricey. What do you guys think?

Also, cross-pattern? Currently laced 2-cross I think.

I've never built a set of wheels before so it will be interesting. Just ordered that Park tension gauge and need a stand too - recommendations?

 

[mongoosemichael]

As for the advice on the wheel build I can't really help you as I get mine built for me by the local bike shop. It's a stan's ZTR arch rim with a hope pro 2 evo rear hub. It works well and im wrapped because I got it done at a very low cost by talking mongoose into a waranty upgrade. As for the work stand I bought a volcan work stand and it works a treat.

Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk 4

 

[brisneyland]

As for the advice on the wheel build I can't really help you as I get mine built for me by the local bike shop. It's a stan's ZTR arch rim with a hope pro 2 evo rear hub. It works well and im wrapped because I got it done at a very low cost by talking mongoose into a waranty upgrade. As for the work stand I bought a volcan work stand and it works a treat.

Thanks mate, actually meant a wheel building/truing stand though. I might just do it on the bike.

Pretty much decided on the DT revo spokes now, can't justify CXrays - it seems that revo's should be strong enough if built 32 spoke/3 cross.

Another question for experienced wheel building folk - I used the spoke length calculator on prowheelbuilder.com - can I rely on the spoke lengths? Am I going to end up with a bunch of redundant spokes?!

Incidentally, there was a thread here recently talking about wheel building but I can't find the bastard - anyone got a link?

Ended up with white rims from Wiggle... hope they don't look too wanky.

 

[datnat]

You could do worse than to purchase this book. Have found it to be very useful and informative, including his thoughts on wheel building techniques and 'myths'

As his website says, refund if it doesn't meet your expectations.

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Hoping to build my own set of wheels in the near future.

Cheers

 

[0psi]

Pretty much decided on the DT revo spokes now, can't justify CXrays -

No. Just no. Revos are a royal PITA to build with. They are okay when you get it right but because they taper down to a 17g or something ridiculous they wind up really easily and they won't take a heap of tension. Down the road maybe but don't use Revos for your first build, it will just end in frustration or a really shit wheel.
Bladed spokes are an excellent choice for your first wheel. For one you'll learn all about wind up, they are really easy to build with, they're strong and they look bad ass. If you don't want to splash out on CXrays or Aerolites then just go with a double butted spoke.
DT Swiss also have a good spoke calculator.

 

[driftking]

I'm assuming you know what spoke pattern your going to use on DS and NDS.

This page has a tone of info that should help.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

 

[redbruce]

I'm assuming you know what spoke pattern your going to use. This page has a tone of info that should help.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Except the discussion on cross pattern to answer/ inform one of the OP's original questions.

Sheldons is good basic info, but really, as suggested by datnat, for the sake of $13 or so for Roger Mussons e book (wheelpro), you'd be mad not to get that reference.

Mussons book also contains contemporary data, such as the different tension requirements required for ZTR rims.

 

[driftking]

Except a discussion on cross pattern, one of the P's original questions.

Sheldons is good basic info, but really, as suggested, for the sake of $13 or so for Roger Mussons e book (wheelpro), you'd be made not to get that reference.

Mussons book also contains contemporary data, such as the different tension requirements required for ZTR rims.

Yeah it's definately a good free source for some basic reading. It does talk about cross count but doesn't really explain it just talks about substituting it for his description below. It really needs some more information on cross count.

For that price I might also grab a copy of that e-book sounds well worth the money.

My basic understanding of cross patterns is:
Lateral stiffness increases as the cross count goes down.
While torsional stiffness increases as the cross count goes up.

People will use different count on sides to deal with Braking and driving forces.
I also read lower cross counts need more often maintaining? Not sure how true that is though.

 

[brisneyland]

datnat, cheers mate I think I'll buy that book. Youtube vids have been informative too.

No. Just no. Revos are a royal PITA to build with. They are okay when you get it right but because they taper down to a 17g or something ridiculous they wind up really easily and they won't take a heap of tension. Down the road maybe but don't use Revos for your first build, it will just end in frustration or a really shit wheel.
Bladed spokes are an excellent choice for your first wheel. For one you'll learn all about wind up, they are really easy to build with, they're strong and they look bad ass. If you don't want to splash out on CXrays or Aerolites then just go with a double butted spoke.
DT Swiss also have a good spoke calculator.

Cheers mate, I was of the impression you could eventually get a bit of a feel for the wind up, overshoot then back off to get it about right? As for tension, should be enough for Crests?

cxrays add $125 to the cost...

Yeah it's definately a good free source for some basic reading. It does talk about cross count but doesn't really explain it just talks about substituting it for his description below. It really needs some more information on cross count.

For that price I might also grab a copy of that e-book sounds well worth the money.

My basic understanding of cross patterns is:
Lateral stiffness increases as the cross count goes down.
While torsional stiffness increases as the cross count goes up.

People will use different count on sides to deal with Braking and driving forces.

Hmm interesting. Current wheels are 3x, both sides, front and rear.

Rear should probably be 3x both sides, could I potentially do 3x disc side on the front, radial non disc side, or is that just stupid? edit: probably stupid and likely to cause hub failure. Could do 1x but is there any reason to?

 

[mongoosemichael]

I just bought the book and I'm looking through it now seems to be full of info .

 

[datnat]

datnat, cheers mate I think I'll buy that book. Youtube vids have been informative too.

No worries, the homemade tools are quite novel too. He makes it all sound quite straight forward, I have chuckle to myself when people start talking about tying spokes etc now...

The single most satisfying thing is being able to build/maintain another part of your bike.

Cheers

 

[hach_bee]

The single most satisfying thing is being able to build/maintain another part of your bike.

That said, one of the most unsatisfying things are parts that are never quite right, or worse, having a wheel blow apart because it hasn't been built right. I mean this with no offence but from a safety (and parts preservation) perspective, I'd strongly encourage you to team up with an experienced wheel builder before hacking at it yourself.

There's little point counting grams if the wheels aren't build right and don't run straight. Not questioning your mechanical ability at all but wheels tend to be a special case. And I've seen weekend warriors tighten the shit out of spokes to get them 'strong' or 'straight'.

You've got some good resources put forward in this thread, but if you've honestly never built or had anything to do with building wheels, please consider learning from someone first before you break your shiny new parts!

 

[redbruce]

datnat, cheers mate I think I'll buy that book. Youtube vids have been informative too.

Cheers mate, I was of the impression you could eventually get a bit of a feel for the wind up, overshoot then back off to get it about right? As for tension, should be enough for Crests?

cxrays add $125 to the cost...

Hmm interesting. Current wheels are 3x, both sides, front and rear.

Rear should probably be 3x both sides, could I potentially do 3x disc side on the front, radial non disc side, or is that just stupid? edit: probably stupid and likely to cause hub failure. Could do 1x but is there any reason to?

If you are building with crests, definitely add in the cost of a spoke tension meter (eg. http://www.parktool.com/product/spoke-tension-meter-tm-1). They run much lower tension than say a Mavic 717 and its much harder to get tension right or you will end up with either a hand grenade or a soggy wheel that constantly needs maintenance.

3X is a safe bet and fewer crosses save bugger all weight anyway. With Crests, I'd definitely go 3X.

Also brass nipples.

 

[brisneyland]

There's little point counting grams if the wheels aren't build right and don't run straight. Not questioning your mechanical ability at all but wheels tend to be a special case. And I've seen weekend warriors tighten the shit out of spokes to get them 'strong' or 'straight'.

Have you actually built a wheel set yourself? I haven't seen anything yet that suggests it's some kind of black art requiring a decade long apprenticeship in a dingy basement... And I've had more 'professionals' fuck shit up on my bikes (MTB and moto), cars and various other things than I have myself.

If you are building with crests, definitely add in the cost of a spoke tension meter (eg. http://www.parktool.com/product/spoke-tension-meter-tm-1). They run much lower tension than say a Mavic 717 and its much harder to get tension right or you will end up with either a hand grenade or a soggy wheel that constantly needs maintenance.

3X is a safe bet and fewer crosses save bugger all weight anyway. With Crests, I'd definitely go 3X.

Also brass nipples.

Yeah, already have the TM-1 on it's way. It was actually the first thing I ordered (before rims even).

That e-book is quite informative, and confirms some of my suspicions that a lot of what people argue about on the internet with respect to wheel building is either insignificant or outright bullshit.

I think I'll take the advice from that book and measure the actual rim ERD and calculate spoke lengths once my rims arrive. Don't have a whole lot of faith in the online spoke length calculators.

Still wavering on spoke choice. I totally get that bladed spokes will be easier to spot wind up but I'm not convinced they'll offer any other tangible benefit.

 

[SummitFever]

...I totally get that bladed spokes will be easier to spot wind up but I'm not convinced they'll offer any other tangible benefit.

Spot on. Bladed spokes are no stronger that the equivalent non-bladed version and they do not make for a stiffer or longer lasting wheel. (Sapim claim a longer fatigue life for the CX-Rays but that's not an issue you will come across on a wheel build). They are 3x as expensive without any real performance gain (other than aero which on a MTB is a wank).

Wheelbuilding is not rocket science. Spoke wind-up is not an issue with Revs even for a first time wheel build. If you're really paranoid about windup you can put little tape flags on each spoke that will show you if they are twisting, but when I build with Revs I just hold the spoke with my left hand so I can feel the wind up. You can feel when the spoke starts to wind up and when the nipple turns. Reference this to where the spoke key is at and you can put a 1/4 or 1/8 turn on the spoke after the wind up stops and then take the windout back out by rotating the spoke key back. Just spend extra time on stress relieving the wheel as you go along (the Roger Musson method of squeezing pairs of spokes is a good one) and windup will not be a problem.

For non-eyeletted rims and alu nips it is very important to properly lube the interface between the nipple and rim. I use a cotton bud dipped in anti-seize compound. Lube the spoke threads with any light machine oil (eg. engine oil or equiv.)

For spoke length calculation, I use the spocalc spreadsheet. It is accurate (again the calculation of spoke length is pretty simple trigonometry) but has the benefit of being able to save the data as a spreadsheet on my computer for future reference. Google spocalc to find it to download.

 

[brisneyland]

Spot on. Bladed spokes are no stronger that the equivalent non-bladed version and they do not make for a stiffer or longer lasting wheel. (Sapim claim a longer fatigue life for the CX-Rays but that's not an issue you will come across on a wheel build). They are 3x as expensive without any real performance gain (other than aero which on a MTB is a wank).

Wheelbuilding is not rocket science. Spoke wind-up is not an issue with Revs even for a first time wheel build. If you're really paranoid about windup you can put little tape flags on each spoke that will show you if they are twisting, but when I build with Revs I just hold the spoke with my left hand so I can feel the wind up. You can feel when the spoke starts to wind up and when the nipple turns. Reference this to where the spoke key is at and you can put a 1/4 or 1/8 turn on the spoke after the wind up stops and then take the windout back out by rotating the spoke key back. Just spend extra time on stress relieving the wheel as you go along (the Roger Musson method of squeezing pairs of spokes is a good one) and windup will not be a problem.

For non-eyeletted rims and alu nips it is very important to properly lube the interface between the nipple and rim. I use a cotton bud dipped in anti-seize compound. Lube the spoke threads with any light machine oil (eg. engine oil or equiv.)

For spoke length calculation, I use the spocalc spreadsheet. It is accurate (again the calculation of spoke length is pretty simple trigonometry) but has the benefit of being able to save the data as a spreadsheet on my computer for future reference. Google spocalc to find it to download.

Thanks mate, I was wondering about putting tape on them. Also, if it is such an issue, why don't people just hold them with some pliers or something whilst doing the last bit of tensioning?

Will check out that spoke calculator.

 

[MTB Wanabe]

Spot on. Bladed spokes are no stronger that the equivalent non-bladed version and they do not make for a stiffer or longer lasting wheel. (Sapim claim a longer fatigue life for the CX-Rays but that's not an issue you will come across on a wheel build). They are 3x as expensive without any real performance gain (other than aero which on a MTB is a wank).

Wheelbuilding is not rocket science. Spoke wind-up is not an issue with Revs even for a first time wheel build. If you're really paranoid about windup you can put little tape flags on each spoke that will show you if they are twisting, but when I build with Revs I just hold the spoke with my left hand so I can feel the wind up. You can feel when the spoke starts to wind up and when the nipple turns. Reference this to where the spoke key is at and you can put a 1/4 or 1/8 turn on the spoke after the wind up stops and then take the windout back out by rotating the spoke key back. Just spend extra time on stress relieving the wheel as you go along (the Roger Musson method of squeezing pairs of spokes is a good one) and windup will not be a problem.

For non-eyeletted rims and alu nips it is very important to properly lube the interface between the nipple and rim. I use a cotton bud dipped in anti-seize compound. Lube the spoke threads with any light machine oil (eg. engine oil or equiv.)

I will add to this about spoke wind up. I personally don't like using revs on the short side of 29er wheels because of the higher tensions and longer lengths the 29er wheels require relative to a 26er wheel. The longer lengths required start to work against the Revolution spoke and they tend to stretch more under higher tensions than shorter lengths. I pretty much only use Competition spokes on the short side of the wheels and the rider weight determines what I use on the other side. Revs can become an issue down the track though if you need to true a wheel as the nipple can lock onto the spoke pretty good and I've had to replace spokes because I've ended up twisting the revolution spoke.

With spoke thread locking compounds, particularly with revolution spokes, it is a fine line between effective thread locking to prevent the nipple loosening and over locking causing the nipple to effectively seize onto the spoke thread, which then becomes an issue down the track if you need to re-true your wheel.

Onto spoke lengths, here are the dimensions I use for a Novatec 811/812 hub:
811(front)
PCD: L - 58, R - 45
Flange Distance from hub centre: L - 23.8, R - 38.2

812 (rear)
PCD: L 58, R - 54
Flange Distance from hub centre: L - 36, R - 22.4

So for these hubs, I will use the following lengths for Stans Crest 29er wheel:
811 (front): L - 293mm, R - 296mm
812 (rear): L - 295mm, R - 294mm

These lengths put the end of the spoke between the bottom of the nipple head cut-out and the top of the cut-out for these hubs. I use the Roger Musson spoke calculator and if you measure your rim as he recommends, then your spoke lengths will be perfect.

As your using a Lefty hub on the front, I would recommend only using Competition spokes as Revolutions spokes will result in a flexy wheel due to the narrow distance between the Lefty Hub flanges. The rear, if your under 75kg, use a combo of Competition and Revolution spokes, if your over 75kg use Comps on both sides.

Hope this helps.

 

[MTB Wanabe]

Thanks mate, I was wondering about putting tape on them. Also, if it is such an issue, why don't people just hold them with some pliers or something whilst doing the last bit of tensioning?

Will check out that spoke calculator.

Because holding spokes with pliers damages the spoke which will lead to premature failure.

 

[hach_bee]

Have you actually built a wheel set yourself? I haven't seen anything yet that suggests it's some kind of black art requiring a decade long apprenticeship in a dingy basement... And I've had more 'professionals' fuck shit up on my bikes (MTB and moto), cars and various other things than I have myself.

Given truing a shot but I found it challenging. Easier to change a BB for sure.

Again, not suggesting you're incompetent by any means, and doing your research as you are is a brilliant start. I guess my thoughts were more directed toward people who just put the thing in the thing and twist like mad.... which are the clowns we've seen fuck it up before. Hey you asked advice, take or leave but I still prefer learning from a person who's done it before.

At least you've got a tensioner.

 

[SummitFever]

... I personally don't like using revs on the short side of 29er wheels...

I've not built a 29er wheel with revs so I'd suggest following Wanabe's suggestions.

If you're after a rim that is very similar to the Crest (same internal width and similar weight) but is eyeletted with an offset spoke bed to reduce L/R tension imbalance, you can try the BOR 333 rim. No idea if anyone does these locally, but I get them from Starbike in Germany. Starbike are also a good source for spokes at a good price.