Steep downhill with nasty water diversion bars - Advice please

[ChrisJC]

Hey guys,

Just after your thoughts on how to best ride steep shitty fire trails with water bars. I do a lot of fire trail riding (cause that's what's around where I live) and there is one particularly nasty descent that I can get down OK if I go relatively slow; however when I look at some of the speeds being achieved on the Strava segment I wonder how they do it. If you live in the Sutherland shire you probably know of the descent from Lucas heights down to the Woronora river called the "Needles Descent". The first part is Ok but then it drops steeply -25 to -35 deg in spots with water diversion bars which are more of a mound then a ramp to launch off. I've hit them a few times going too fast and had my back wheel lift. I thought I had my weight back but perhaps not far enough. What makes it more interesting is the amount of loose debris (rocks, sticks etc) you have to contend with. How do others handle sections like this - crawl down, go for big air off the bumps or somewhere in between?

Cheers
C
P.S. not being as young as I once was, I am a little risk averse!

 

[slimjim1]

Hey guys,

Just after your thoughts on how to best ride steep shitty fire trails with water bars. I do a lot of fire trail riding (cause that's what's around where I live) and there is one particularly nasty descent that I can get down OK if I go relatively slow; however when I look at some of the speeds being achieved on the Strava segment I wonder how they do it. If you live in the Sutherland shire you probably know of the descent from Lucas heights down to the Woronora river called the "Needles Descent". The first part is Ok but then it drops steeply -25 to -35 deg in spots with water diversion bars which are more of a mound then a ramp to launch off. I've hit them a few times going too fast and had my back wheel lift. I thought I had my weight back but perhaps not far enough. What makes it more interesting is the amount of loose debris (rocks, sticks etc) you have to contend with. How do others handle sections like this - crawl down, go for big air off the bumps or somewhere in between?

Cheers
C
P.S. not being as young as I once was, I am a little risk averse!

How long is the fireroad? I find Strava very accurate over distance but I would mostly ignore times/average speeds on any segment under 1km in length.

 

[ChrisJC]

How long is the fireroad? I find Strava very accurate over distance but I would mostly ignore times/average speeds on any segment under 1km in length.

SlimJim, It's a bit less than a km. My average at best is around 27kph or 90 secs, whereas heaps of guys are getting down in 65-70 secs. I know we all have our strengths and downhill clearly isn't one of mine!

 

[pink poodle]

Hey guys,

Just after your thoughts on how to best ride steep shitty fire trails with water bars. I do a lot of fire trail riding (cause that's what's around where I live) and there is one particularly nasty descent that I can get down OK if I go relatively slow; however when I look at some of the speeds being achieved on the Strava segment I wonder how they do it. If you live in the Sutherland shire you probably know of the descent from Lucas heights down to the Woronora river called the "Needles Descent". The first part is Ok but then it drops steeply -25 to -35 deg in spots with water diversion bars which are more of a mound then a ramp to launch off. I've hit them a few times going too fast and had my back wheel lift. I thought I had my weight back but perhaps not far enough. What makes it more interesting is the amount of loose debris (rocks, sticks etc) you have to contend with. How do others handle sections like this - crawl down, go for big air off the bumps or somewhere in between?

Cheers
C
P.S. not being as young as I once was, I am a little risk averse!

What sort of bike are you on? That will have a bit of impact on how to tackle the issue...

I take groups of mixed experience riders on a few trails that involve some fast steep eroded fire road. Assuming you aren't trying to launch into orbit, keep weight low more than back. Sort of. You need some weight on the front end to keep it from skipping everywhere. You also need weight back so you don't get kicked over the bars and can lift the front end as required. Staying low is useful, especially when the terrain is rough. Imagine your body as a lever...torso flapping around with legs and arms extended, it can move your wheels a lot. That said I tend to move my body around a lot when on fire roads, redistributing the weight for manoeuvring and showing off. I've had a few grape fruit sized rocks ping my front wheel out over the years...it is not fun.

Most important thing, drop your seat. I'm feeling a strong vibe of extended seat post for climbing...

 

[ChrisJC]

What sort of bike are you on? That will have a bit of impact on how to tackle the issue...

I take groups of mixed experience riders on a few trails that involve some fast steep eroded fire road. Assuming you aren't trying to launch into orbit, keep weight low more than back. Sort of. You need some weight on the front end to keep it from skipping everywhere. You also need weight back so you don't get kicked over the bars and can lift the front end as required. Staying low is useful, especially when the terrain is rough. Imagine your body as a lever...torso flapping around with legs and arms extended, it can move your wheels a lot. That said I tend to move my body around a lot when on fire roads, redistributing the weight for manoeuvring and showing off. I've had a few grape fruit sized rocks ping my front wheel out over the years...it is not fun.

Most important thing, drop your seat. I'm feeling a strong vibe of extended seat post for climbing...

Thanks for your reply. Bike is a Giant Anthem x29er. Seat height is a few mm lower than I'd normally have on my roadie. I haven't played around much with my set up is it feels ok 95% of the time. I don't have enough experience on technical stuff to know whether or not I have the correct setup

 

[Ivan]

I know the section of fire trail your referring to (needles descent?), but I've only ridden it once. It seemed to me the bars were small enough to be pre-jumped.
It's also pretty high speed and loose, so at some point courage takes over from skill.

 

[ChrisJC]

I know the section of fire trail your referring to (needles descent?), but I've only ridden it once. It seemed to me the bars were small enough to be pre-jumped.
It's also pretty high speed and loose, so at some point courage takes over from skill.

Haha, yes, both of which I am lacking!

 

[Haakon]

Reminds me of the numerous lumps along Skyline at Stromlo - the key there is to stay out of the saddle and launch them a bit. Every time I get lazy or forgetfully cruisy sitting down, those fuckers will flick the back up on me every time....

 

[bikeyoulongtime]

Reminds me of the numerous lumps along Skyline at Stromlo - the key there is to stay out of the saddle and launch them a bit. Every time I get lazy or forgetfully cruisy sitting down, those fuckers will flick the back up on me every time....

Pump the bastards, go faster

 

[pink poodle]

Thanks for your reply. Bike is a Giant Anthem x29er. Seat height is a few mm lower than I'd normally have on my roadie. I haven't played around much with my set up is it feels ok 95% of the time. I don't have enough experience on technical stuff to know whether or not I have the correct setup

I'm out of my depth in providing info for such a scenario.

 

[pink poodle]

Pump the bastards, go faster

Will find appropriate image for educational purposes.

 

[outtacontrol]

The only way to hit big water bars fast other than launching off them ( because most are just big pointy piles of soil and not shaped correctly) is to pre jump them. Basically you bunny hop early and land just past the apex of water bar. Is definitely a skill and to get it right you are just skimming over the ramp side and rolling down the lander.

 

[bikeyoulongtime]

...back to the topic, yeah, outtacontrol is right. Pre jumping is the fast way. It feels *super* sketchy when starting out trying to pre-jump waterbars. Jebeezus I nearly shat myself the first few times trying it at speed, but the alternative was launch into orbit. I got a good feel for it riding around Eildon, Vic - heaps of 4x4 tracks, only a few that steep though! ...buut, you need to be pretty happy bunnyhopping lots of things first. So go bunnyhop loads of things.

Start slow, and build up. It's a skill I use everywhere now, like the little pimples that appear at Bruce ridge (bunnyhop 'em), or those last few lumps in the stromlo 4x track (pre-jump to avoid launch to flat).

Ohyeah, drop that seat. I used to be an old school warrior, trying to ride everything seat up. I realised it was a silly idea. Like Poodle says, you need space to move about. Especially if you're starting out in technical territory.

 

[stirk]

Lawson ridge in the blue mountains has some steep down hill runs over large waterbar, you can get stupid air if you've the skills to land a bike from 12 foot air onto loose still steep trail.

I squash the waterbar by letting the bike bounce up into my body using my legs and arms as shock absorbers. This way I can control the amount of air I get. You need to be well up off the seat to do this and a dropper helps or you can get bucked forward by your seat if not careful. Doing this you can hit the waterbar at around 30kph without fear of launching.

Some waterbar though are monsters where the water digs out the leading edge in which case you need to jump as mentioned or if you can't jump lift the front high so you only hit it with the rear tyre.

Heaps of fun though!

 

[Haakon]

Will find appropriate image for educational purposes.

ill be very disappointed if you don't.

 

[pink poodle]

ill be very disappointed if you don't.

The education I recommended for you requires different images...

 

[foxpuppet]

you'll probably find the faster times could be down to more downhill oriented bikes. some guys just go out to nab the downhill segments and then slow slog the rest.
whats your comparative time over the full circuit if there is one?
One thing you could try to feel more stable at speed down something like this is dropping your seatpost down. see how it goes and then adjust accordingly. once you feel comfortable going quicker you may want to raise it slightly, this is where dropper posts come into their own!

 

[slimjim1]

whats your comparative time over the full circuit if there is one?

This is what I was trying to get at earlier. Short segments like that can be prone to GPS error, especially if there are sharp corners at the beginning or end of the segment. And in any case they tell you very little about how fast someone is in 'real life' or an actual race scenario.

 

[steve jobs' pancreas]

Quarry Firetrail in Hornsby sounds similar, there is clean line from riders that you gotta stick to otherwise at speed it gets ugly.

I love bombing that trail, there are some water bars on it that are just pure joy to jump. I almost slammed into a wallaby at dusk on one run, that was fairly interesting.

Practice makes perfect, and slogging back up is the price ya pay.

 

[ChrisJC]

you'll probably find the faster times could be down to more downhill oriented bikes. some guys just go out to nab the downhill segments and then slow slog the rest.
whats your comparative time over the full circuit if there is one?
One thing you could try to feel more stable at speed down something like this is dropping your seatpost down. see how it goes and then adjust accordingly. once you feel comfortable going quicker you may want to raise it slightly, this is where dropper posts come into their own!

On flat to undulating stuff and even the less messy downhills I'm up there in the top 10% or so - perhaps due to my TT background in another life.

I will drop my seat and see how that goes and then consider a dropper post. Easy to do on the Anthem but not practical on my HT without a dropper post. As most of my riding is non technical XC I like to have my seat height similar to what I would on a roadie.