Plastic bags, climate change, renewable energy,

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes

[watched the trailer] I can't agree with this "happy outcomes" story. The CC problem is WAY bigger than that solved in this discussion. We can't solve this with little steps & good news snippets. Documentaries like this are counter-productive.

We are in a time of climate emergency:


In that documentary do they discuss these numbers?
  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
  • 10 years ago, if countries had acted on this science, governments would have needed to reduce emissions by 3.3% each year. Every year we fail to act, the level of difficulty and cost to reduce emissions goes up. (EGR, 2019)
That's the truth, just ask climate science.
I think your under-estimating the problem. We will probably have to actively suck CO2 out of the air.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
Not probably, carbon sequestration requirements are a given:



Technology-based carbon-dioxide removal
While reducing CO2 emissions is a vital part of reaching a 1.5-degree pathway, it would not be enough by itself. Additional carbon dioxide would need to be removed from the atmosphere. Carbon-dioxide removal involves capturing and permanently sequestering CO2 that has already been emitted, through either nature-based solutions or approaches that rely on technology, which are promising but nascent. Examples of the latter include direct air capture (which is operating at a pilot plant in Iceland).
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I bet that 2040 documentary doesn't discuss such things.

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Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
I feel you’re missing the point somewhat @hifiandmtb, and taking your usual "can't argue with science" stance without watching the entire thing also indicates that you're not really the target audience anyway.

The doco is what our kids are being shown at school; the future custodians of the planet. The same people that will become elected representatives, shareholders, company directors, influencers. As a parent I want my kids to grow up knowing that the future is still bright and that there is good that can be done. This doco shows them real and relatable things communities can do that will make a difference, in terms of both emissions reductions and carbon capture.

I bet that 2040 documentary doesn't discuss such things.
"Researchers estimate that if 9% of the world’s ocean surfaces were used for seaweed farming, we would be removing 53 billion tonnes of CO2 per year from the atmosphere. The key technology required for these ocean farms comes in the form of a lightweight, latticed structure that is roughly a square kilometre in size. It is submerged about 25 metres below sea level where kelp can attach to it. Kelp forests are an amazing carbon sink and draw more CO2 from the atmosphere by area than land-based rainforests! They will even grow in ocean “dead zones” and, remarkably, will restore these areas."

I'm not suggesting that Damon Gameau is the next Jesus Christ, but if enough people think like him, a lot of good could come of it. Don't see how his efforts can be considered counter-productive ie. stop talking about the problem all the time and start doing something about it.
 

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
CC science requires this:

372174


Do the maths of the solutions in that documentary stack up? Do they discuss the maths?

That's what we need to work towards - solutions that meet the maths problem.

Feel-good is not a solution. Doing something is not a solution.
 

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
Found the closest thing to that documentary - a BBC interview with Damon, discussing it:


Around 20min in he discusses the real issue - the fact that we've built our lives based on competitive economies at the deficit of the planet. That's what really needs to change.
  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
You can't meet these maths requirements using conventional thinking (aka sporadic tech introduction).
 

Halo1

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Found the closest thing to that documentary - a BBC interview with Damon, discussing it:


Around 20min in he discusses the real issue - the fact that we've built our lives based on competitive economies at the deficit of the planet. That's what really needs to change.
  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
You can't meet these maths requirements using conventional thinking (aka sporadic tech introduction).
We need to eliminate luxuries and consumerism that provide no benefit to the planet or our survival like Mountain biking!
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
Which is pretty much the argument against capitalism. Hardly groundbreaking. Everyone knows this but no one knows what to do about it.
No one knows what to do about it because we are in this phase of history where capitalism is taken as a realism, there is no imaginable alternative in the collective psyche, even though we know capitalism is based on a fundamental fallacy being that of unlimited growth with finite resources. We are dumbstruck by the repeated mantras of individuality, personal responsibility, the ever-increasing entrepreneurisation of the self, the morality of debt, etc. Neoliberal capitalism repeats these mantras to the point where we just accept them as reality. We need our own dogmas to counter that before we can even entertain the idea of significant action on climate change making a difference.
 

Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
Found the closest thing to that documentary - a BBC interview with Damon, discussing it:


Around 20min in he discusses the real issue - the fact that we've built our lives based on competitive economies at the deficit of the planet. That's what really needs to change.
  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
You can't meet these maths requirements using conventional thinking (aka sporadic tech introduction).
Watch it in full here (for now at least, it will likely get taken down):

Remember the target audience too. Here's a bloke that wants his 4yo daughter to grow up with some hope that the world could be a better place in 2040. A world where people think like communities again, shun corporate greed, capitalism and industrial scale agriculture, deal with overpopulation in developing countries and scale up accessible technologies that can start to make a difference.

Just because it's "not enough" in your view doesn't make it any less worthwhile. Maths isn't going to solve climate change, people are. If Damon's efforts help to mainstream changes in mindset and motivate people to act, all power to him.
 
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hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
Remember the target audience too. Here's a bloke that wants his 4yo daughter to grow up with some hope that the world could be a better place in 2040.
The documentary target audience is toddlers?

No point lying to our kids - we are completely in the shit & need unconventional thinking to fix this.

Just because it's "not enough" in your view doesn't make it any less worthwhile.
Yeah it does.

It allows us to kick the can down the road & makes the future emission reduction requirements even more severe.

  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
  • 10 years ago, if countries had acted on this science, governments would have needed to reduce emissions by 3.3% each year. Every year we fail to act, the level of difficulty and cost to reduce emissions goes up. (EGR, 2019)
 
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Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
The documentary target audience is toddlers?

No point lying to our kids - we are completely in the shit & need unconventional thinking to fix this.


Yeah it does.

It allows us to kick the can down the road & makes the future emission reduction requirements even more severe.

  • To prevent warming beyond 1.5°C, we need to reduce emissions by 7.6% every year from this year to 2030. (EGR, 2019)
  • 10 years ago, if countries had acted on this science, governments would have needed to reduce emissions by 3.3% each year. Every year we fail to act, the level of difficulty and cost to reduce emissions goes up. (EGR, 2019)
Pferdeschiesse. Too many thinkers, not enough doers.

Try taking all your graphs and statistics down to the local school, show them to the kids and say "look - the world's fucked, you have no future". Tell me how well that works in motivating them into giving a shit about climate change. You have kids? What do you tell them? You're welcome to keep using the stick approach, just as people like Damon can use the carrot. You're both fighting the same fight though.

Let's face it, at one stage in the future they're going to have to cap the population, possibly as people die they can allow people to give birth.
Interestingly, that 2040 doco highlighted the flow on benefits of educating women had a huge impact - drag them out of poverty where they would have 5 or 7 kids, instead having work/career opportunities, deferring children until later in life and having less of them.
 

hifiandmtb

Sphincter beanie
We all have a future. But if we don't reduce carbon emissions quickly, using unconventional thought, the future is not pretty.

I'd love to take the truth into schools - might wake people up! FFS, kids used to deal with worse news than this...what about WW2? Living through the great depression? We need to be honest with our future - our future is our kids!

The solutions in that documentary are tweaks to the current regime. Either way, CC science determines the outcome.

Can I please go into my local school & deliver this message? Direct quote from a mate of mine...

“Regarding the mirage, I was referring to green capitalism being too slow to adequately mitigate climate change and biodiversity loss. This is opening a very bleak can of worms and you might want to be wary of how much you learn.

Referring to BP’s energy stats that begin in 1985, and is the conventional reference, the net annual change of world fossil fuel energy has only reduced once - in 2009 due to the GFC, so not by design. The addition of fossil fuel energy in 2019 was equiv to 95% of the low-carbon added, and 20% greater than that of renewables. Even if you were to consider only electricity (only a fifth of world energy), fossil fuelled generation only reduced in 2009 and 2019; twice. And so our CO₂ emissions continue to rise, as does atmospheric concentration, which is at its highest level since the mid-Pliocene 3 million years ago and is increasing at a rate unprecedented in the last 66 million years and ten times faster than any known rate.

Why’s all that a problem? We’re still carbonising at a warming of 1.2˚C. The previous warm period, prior to the last ice age is known as the Eemian. Our max estimate of the max temp during this time is 1.5˚C. So we’ve either left the Eemian temp range or are about to. During the Eemian, seas were 6 to 9m higher than now. So we’ve locked in that sea level rise but we don’t know how soon. NOAA in the US uses a max projection this century of 2.5m. The IceBridge program in Antarctica is monitoring the ice sheets and has detected a speedup of the glaciers that drain the West Antarctic Ice Sheet. It’s now out of mass balance, loosing more ice to the ocean than accumulates from snow. Imagine the turmoil on financial markets due to multimeter sea level rise? The melt would be highly nonlinear because WAIS’ bedrock is retrograde - so it’s shaped like a big soup bowl - “a giant soup bowl filled with ice” to quote one scientist. As the ice sheet melts, taller and taller ice cliffs are exposed to warm ocean, and the melt enters a positive feedback loop, melting ever faster. To make matters worse (and it always gets worse and worse), a study published in Jan found the max temp of the water column in the southern ocean is becoming more shallow, with implications for basal (underneath) melt of the ice sheets. There’s a lot more to this issue.

Higher global warming brings more severe and frequent heat waves to land and water. 3 billion animals died in our fires last summer. Then there’s coral reefs. Since 2016, half the corals on the GBR have died, and all would be dead at 2˚C. The Aus federal government was told in 2017 that to protect all biodiversity on GBR, global warming would need to be limited to 1.2˚C (that’s on the web).

A study was published two weeks ago that stated the Amazon (and much of PNG and Indonesian rainforest) would be in a death spiral by 2050. So much for planting trees to manage our carbon, despite that our management of land is in fact still a net carbon-source (not a sink), about the size of a third of our fossil fuel emissions.

Oh and Arctic sea ice… and on and on I could type.

This is all published mainstream science - no David Ike like BS here.

And yet we think we can simply turn this all around on a dime by building green tech, planting more trees and relying on capitalism? Bit late for that, unless you endorse a 2˚C+ catastrophe. But this is what’s being pedalled by the bullish Bloombergs of the world running about on too much red cordial. 'Net zero by 2050’ as you’ve probably heard of would take us to 2.1˚C if all the governments currently considering it did pledge it. Disaster.

Sounds fatalistic? Maybe. Unless the world realises that the change needed is not a tech one, but a massive social one. I think we’d have to ditch GDP. Little chance of that, so I’ll buy a nice low-impact bike to pass the days with, and try to ignore that the habitat I’m cycling amongst is going very quiet - what happened to the insect and bird populations? Oh and there’s climate change triggered nuclear war…

In short, the world’s a sham; it’s untenable, even what’s being sold by the net-zero crowd. We might change and quickly enough, but I see no reason to hope for that. Some people are telling the truth: James Hansen, Greta, Kevin Anderson of Manchester Uni, Hans Joachim Schellnhuber (Pope’s scientific adviser), Eric Rignot and David Spratt, to name a few. The Guardian tries but messes it up too frequently and doesn’t join the dots.

That’s more than enough for me, but difficult to convey the problem meaningfully in just a sentence or two.”


We really are in the shit. We need to speak the truth.

As they say, you can't fix the problem until you acknowledge it.
 

Haakon

has an accommodating arse
Bit of an each way bet as to which falls off into the sea first, the WAIS or Greenland. Either one will produce an entertainingly swift rise is sea levels, Greenland might throw in a shut down Gulf Stream and freeze over europe for extra giggles.
 
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