Wheel Build Advice Thread

[T-Rex]

I can’t source Sapim spokes/nipples locally to measure ERD, so if I use a nipple of the same length and similar shape, will I get a measurement that is close enough to use?

Yes.

ERD is measured to the underside of the nipple or washer where it contacts the rim, so nipple length doesn't come into it, and I don't think shape does either. +/- 1mm on the spoke, or 2mm on the ERD is an OK tolerance.

FWIW I've built several 29" wheels on Spank rims, with a variety of hubs, they have all been 290/292 spokes, 290 on the drive side, 292 on the non drive.

 

[blacksp20]

PM me I'll put a couple of Sapim nipples in the mail for you.

Thanks for the offer but I think I’ll be fine with the nipples I just grabbed at the LBS. They look close enough to Sapim and the spokes can thread further into them than the used spokes I grabbed previously. Should be able to set them to the correct engagement depth and measure away.

 

[teK--]

Yes.

ERD is measured to the underside of the nipple or washer where it contacts the rim, so nipple length doesn't come into it, and I don't think shape does either. +/- 1mm on the spoke, or 2mm on the ERD is an OK tolerance.

FWIW I've built several 29" wheels on Spank rims, with a variety of hubs, they have all been 290/292 spokes, 290 on the drive side, 292 on the non drive.

If measuring ERD as the bottom of the nipple (approx height of the rimbed, assuming no washers) then the spokes are likely too short and risk breaking the nipple especially if using aluminium.

The spoke should extend higher than the rimbed. In this pic (not my artwork) the rimbed would be about the height of where the arrow is, or slightly above.

That means the ERD should be measured at end of the spoke, which means nipple length does matter (see the pic I posted earlier).

 

[link1896]

I’ve used customcutspokes.co.uk before, even two years ago they were cheaper then anybody else on Sapim Laser or CX Ray.

 

[blacksp20]

If measuring ERD as the bottom of the nipple (approx height of the rimbed, assuming no washers) then the spokes are likely too short and risk breaking the nipple especially if using aluminium.

The spoke should extend higher than the rimbed. In this pic (not my artwork) the rimbed would be about the height of where the arrow is, or slightly above.

View attachment 365434



That means the ERD should be measured at end of the spoke, which means nipple length does matter (see the pic I posted earlier).

Yes I’ll be following this principle when recalculating the ERD.

 

[teK--]

I’ve used customcutspokes.co.uk before, even two years ago they were cheaper then anybody else on Sapim Laser or CX Ray.

Yeah ordered a few times from them; great service and price.

 

[T-Rex]

That means the ERD should be measured at end of the spoke, which means nipple length does matter (see the pic I posted earlier).

Nope. ERD is measured where the nipple contacts the rim. Look it up. 12 or 14mm nipples will give you the same measurement, since the contact point is the same.

Anyway, @blacksp20, you have the answer on the spoke length, so the measurement method is a bit academic for you.

 

[The Duckmeister]

Can someone give me the best way of measuring ERD from experience? The bible says to use 200mm spokes, screwed into nipples until they are in line with the groove in the nipple then measure the distance between the spokes and add 400mm. To me this would measure longer than the bed ERD by a few mil or am I wrong?

My variation is to use two 300mm spokes threaded through opposing holes, fully screw a nipple onto each one so you have a solid reference point and draw a mark across both spokes where they overlap. Take them out, tape them to a bench with the marks aligned, and then measure at the nipple heads. If the rim manufacturer specifies washers, include them with your measuring assembly.

I build almost exclusively with 12mm nipples, only using longer if the rim (typically carbon) is very thick through the rim bed and needs a bit more shank length to reach through, but even then I'll calculate with 12s to ensure the spokes go right up into the nipple heads.

 

[teK--]

Nope. ERD is measured where the nipple contacts the rim. Look it up. 12 or 14mm nipples will give you the same measurement, since the contact point is the same.

Anyway, @blacksp20, you have the answer on the spoke length, so the measurement method is a bit academic for you.

I did look it up. Twice just to check my sanity since I haven't built for a while lol .

Park tool and DT Swiss both measure ERD to the end of the spokes:

 

[blacksp20]

Rogers method appears to calculate the ERD from the end of the spokes. As per his instructions I’ll set the Spoke to the bottom of the slot in the nipple and measure from there.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll take my time and follow the bible. Fingers crossed I don’t end up in the fuckwits thread.

 

[The Duckmeister]

Yes.

ERD is measured to the underside of the nipple or washer where it contacts the rim, so nipple length doesn't come into it, and I don't think shape does either. +/- 1mm on the spoke, or 2mm on the ERD is an OK tolerance.

FWIW I've built several 29" wheels on Spank rims, with a variety of hubs, they have all been 290/292 spokes, 290 on the drive side, 292 on the non drive.

If measuring ERD as the bottom of the nipple (approx height of the rimbed, assuming no washers) then the spokes are likely too short and risk breaking the nipple especially if using aluminium.

The spoke should extend higher than the rimbed. In this pic (not my artwork) the rimbed would be about the height of where the arrow is, or slightly above.

View attachment 365434



That means the ERD should be measured at end of the spoke, which means nipple length does matter (see the pic I posted earlier).

Just a side thought.....There are merits to both measurement points, depending on the type of spokes used, BUT I would maintain that nipple length is pretty well irrelevant, because you want the spokes to thread up into the nipple head, which is going to be in the same place in any given rim.....

Anyway, finer-gauge spokes such as DT Revolution and similar will stretch more under tension that heavier-gauge. Additionally, various manufacturers use different alloy steels, which have different stretch characteristics for any given profile, which also need to be considered - I have found Sapim to be about the stretchiest, Pillar to be very stiff, and DT somewhere in between. For very stretchy spokes, using the underside of the nipple heads as the measurement point works better as that will give more play room to take up the spoke thread as they stretch under tension. Spokes that don't stretch as much tend to work out better when nipple head depth is included in the ERD calculation. As per earlier comment, washers, when used are treated as part of the rim wall, so factored in regardless of where you measure on the nipple.

 

[blacksp20]

OK, much more thorough measurements this time following the instructions from Musson's book and using his spoke calculator.
With spokes threaded to the bottom of the nipple slot, using supplied washers I now get an ERD of 605mm.

Calculated spoke length required are Front (left) 291.8 and (right) 293.5, rear (left) 292.7 and (right) 291.3.
So 291 and 293 would be reasonable?

 

[ming]

I am planning to build some wheels for son's enduro bike. DT Swiss rims & spokes, but undecided on hubs. Tempted by Shimano XT FH-M110 hubs. Microspline, quick engagement, easy service, less than half price of DT 350s.
Has anyone used these or seen reviews? I have been very happy with my much older Shimano hubs.

 

[creaky]

The correct answer is always DT hubs!
Solid, simple to service, easy to get parts and convertible between various standards.

 

[link1896]

Hope are great too. Cheaper last time I priced up vs DT.

 

[ozzybmx]

Microspline, quick engagement, easy service, less than half price of DT 350s.

How much you talking ?

Bike24 has front and rear for 117 + 50 euros = $270au for the set.

The same set of DT350s at Pushys is $360 rear + $150 front = $510au, so basically half the price from Germany + grab yourself the spokes at same time. Even EX511 rims if you haven't bought rims yet. That will build an awesome set of wheels.

https://www.hibike.com/dt-swiss-350...539d9febf8e5fd8aa741f7b7b4746a5b#var_41568467

https://www.hibike.com/dt-swiss-350...279555fc541ee946f338d921892ad0c5#var_41568464

 

[safreek]

Hey guys, so as not to clutter my wtb ad.
Moorey has informed me that my hope hub is convertible to a 10 X 135, my question to you is, as the wheel apparently needs some 10mm of dishing to work on a demo 7 can a bikeshop do this without pulling the wheel apart. Wheels scare me. Thanks for any info

 

[ozzybmx]

Hey guys, so as not to clutter my wtb ad.
Moorey has informed me that my hope hub is convertible to a 10 X 135, my question to you is, as the wheel apparently needs some 10mm of dishing to work on a demo 7 can a bikeshop do this without pulling the wheel apart. Wheels scare me. Thanks for any info

To dish a wheel 5mm each side (10mm), it can be as little as 1 full turn loosen on one side and similar approximate tighten on the other.

It depends on how long the spoke pokes out through the nipple, you need to be able to loosen one side without losing the spoke inside the nipple, which weakens the wheel and tighten the other without max out of the threads.

 

[safreek]

To dish a wheel 5mm each side (10mm), it can be as little as 1 full turn loosen on one side and similar approximate tighten on the other.

It depends on how long the spoke pokes out through the nipple, you need to be able to loosen one side without losing the spoke inside the nipple, which weakens the wheel and tighten the other without max out of the threads.

Cheers bro, glad that it's no big dramas
Not confident on wheels, shall hit the bikeshop

 

[Litenbror]

Cheers bro, glad that it's no big dramas
Not confident on wheels, shall hit the bikeshop

Honestly give it a crack yourself first. Start with a quarter turn each and see how that goes then another quarter turn so on so forth. Could have it done in 15 min and save yourself some dollars in the process.