eBike with best reliability and repairable.

[Calvin27]

Hi folks, me and my mates are about to take the dive and it's interesting to see the different views on ebikes. Some want a featherweight assit bike, others want a full monster rig with huge range. We've all been trading articles on different motors and bikes etc.

For me though the main goal is to not end up with an expensive paperweight in 4 years time when something breaks. It's pretty ridiculous that these things cost a fair bit but offer piss all warranty and generally difficult if not impssible to repair, but that's not something i can control so question to the brains trust:

If I were to buy an ebike today, which model (or motor bttery combo) would you consider most future proof that is most likely to have parts into the future and easily replacable should it fail?

My head says to go with shimano, seems to have good market share and the battery systems seem very easy to find and buy, same goes with the motor setups and I believe their mounts haven't changed too much from generations if at all. However this link rekons bosch is the main player and volume does have it's advantages (it is Euro biased though). Then there is the question of spesh, where they run thier own setup but seem to have enough volume and hold spares for at least 1 or 2 gens behind. Other brands like giant seem to use third party motors but then run proprietory batteries - it's kind of annoying.

So given that I rekon I'd be happy to go with either bosch, yamaha or shimano, assuming they aren't running proprietory batteries. Thoughts?

For the record I am aiming for something like a 20kg 400Wh up to 22kg 700Wh ebike. Happy to upgrade a little to get to the target weight. About 140-160mm travel. Mayb go as low as 300Wh if I am hitting around the 18kg mark (looks at fuel eXe) but the range extender would have to be decent and not just a 200Wh tiny thing.

 

[bigdamo]

This vid tells you which motor not to buy.

 

[Calvin27]

Thanks, basically just confirms that we are all beta testers for ebike tech lols.

 

[pink poodle]

Just catch the yolo fever @Calvin27 !

Intense Tazer MX Pro (LG-XL) | 25% ($1,999.75) Off! - RevZilla

Step into the future with the Intense Tazer MX Pro build electric bike. A fully carbon fiber constructed frame hides internally routed cables to preve…

www.revzilla.com

 

[spinner]

Warranty is gonna save you if you are unlucky enough get a dud. Post warranty will come down to kms and treatment. Water ingress is the main culprit , but in Aus I'd consider that as less of a threat than say the UK.


Of the 3 brands you mention , the chances are slim to nothing of having any issues IMO. If something does break in 4 years time , I reckon you'll be able to get a reconditioned motor or replacement battery. Standards and back compatibility are 2 things I would not expect from the bike industry and E bikes seem to step up to another level in this area. Even if motor mounts became standardised across the industry , there's sure to be incompatibility between other parts of the system or software in 4 years time. I live in hope that we get some third parties offering solutions in future though.

A mate bought the Trance X advanced E+ and is very happy with it. Its around 21kgs , 400wh battery plus hes de restricted it with an NLS Components Speedi. It ticks all the boxes for him , he can do a 40km / 1000vm ride if he puts in the effort , or do a 20k quick ride at full power. The only criticism is the motor has a whirr as the assistance tapers off.

I ride a Bosch gen 4. It has developed a bit of a rattle over time but its barely noticeable. At 2500kms / 18 months old , I took it to my local Bosch service centre for them to inspect , grease gears and bearings , clean seals etc.... Just preventative stuff I guess.
The guy rings me up after I dropped it off. Asked what it was doing ? I explained I just wanted to check it over etc as above. He tells me they are a sealed unit , use it until it breaks. If its under warranty all good , if its not , get the wallet out.

Another mate bought a Polygon with the Shimano EP801. He's very happy with it , they are def quieter than the EP8.

I wouldn't overthink it. I know its a big spend but I reckon focus on the suspension design , geometry and parts spec of the bikes that land in that range you mentioned. Also don't let weight influence your choice. All E bikes are heavy IMO !

 

[Halo1]

This vid tells you which motor not to buy.

This was well worth watching. I hate the way the bike industry wants to go smaller and lighter when we need what ever will provide reliable stuff.

 

[caad9]

This was well worth watching. I hate the way the bike industry wants to go smaller and lighter when we need what ever will provide reliable stuff.

It’s funny how they want to go smaller and lighter on the bikes everyone expects to be heavy yet almost every other bike is getting heavier

 

[bigdamo]

It’s funny how they want to go smaller and lighter on the bikes everyone expects to be heavy yet almost every other bike is getting heavier

And everyone expects them to be more reliable.

 

[link1896]

Reliability never entered the conversation with any of these design teams it would appear.

Every motor has at least one of the following issues, some many.

Carbon loaded industrial timing belts that are too narrow, their pitch too small, with no dynamic tensioner, loaded with carbon powder in the belt teeth faces to shift the wear away from the belts, with industrial grade petroleum jelly somehow expected to stay on the wear surfaces, running on nylon cogs with 14 teeth of engagement between cog and belt on the small cog.

Nylon spur and or helical gears expected to retain the grease from factory for life, when instead the grease migrates very quickly. Super tacky grease isn’t the answer.

Multi layer PCB’s glued into the assembly so removing the cover rips the pcb layers apart, enforcing the sealed for life intent.

Nasty low grade bearings with the hardness of a fine French cheese.

Custom sized bearings not found on the ISO tables in an attempt to lock in the customer with a “non repairable motor”.

Custom sprag clutches, again not adopted from the moped crowd to make things impossible.

Sealing from the elements a rough cut log wood cabin built in Canada in 1788 could surpass. It’s as if IP rating system (IEC 60529) doesn’t even exist. Warranty void if ridden on dirt on a dry day. Apparently the Subaru and bmw gasket experts were engaged to offer their finest solutions. Paper gaskets seal so well when one face is unsupported.

Shaft seals just not there, when a quad ring would fit just nicely between shaft and housing.

Case halves with locating dowel pins that don’t actually line up the bearing seats, so bearings are miss aligned, reminiscent of two part press fit bottom bracket dramas. One can see this with the naked eye, you don’t need a precision coordinate measurement machine to work it out when you see the tell tale witness marks on the spindle and the spindle exits the casing not centred in the machined opening.

That’s just the motors. The batteries are just as fubar-ed.


Likely this has all come about from a combination of engineering not actually riding MTB, their corporate overlords meddling with designs to lock in future revenue, and no will to revise designs when issues are discovered.

 

[Mattyp]

Reliability never entered the conversation with any of these design teams it would appear.

Every motor has at least one of the following issues, some many.

Carbon loaded industrial timing belts that are too narrow, their pitch too small, with no dynamic tensioner, loaded with carbon powder in the belt teeth faces to shift the wear away from the belts, with industrial grade petroleum jelly somehow expected to stay on the wear surfaces, running on nylon cogs with 14 teeth of engagement between cog and belt on the small cog.

Nylon spur and or helical gears expected to retain the grease from factory for life, when instead the grease migrates very quickly. Super tacky grease isn’t the answer.

Multi layer PCB’s glued into the assembly so removing the cover rips the pcb layers apart, enforcing the sealed for life intent.

Nasty low grade bearings with the hardness of a fine French cheese.

Custom sized bearings not found on the ISO tables in an attempt to lock in the customer with a “non repairable motor”.

Custom sprag clutches, again not adopted from the moped crowd to make things impossible.

Sealing from the elements a rough cut log wood cabin built in Canada in 1788 could surpass. It’s as if IP rating system (IEC 60529) doesn’t even exist. Warranty void if ridden on dirt on a dry day. Apparently the Subaru and bmw gasket experts were engaged to offer their finest solutions. Paper gaskets seal so well when one face is unsupported.

Shaft seals just not there, when a quad ring would fit just nicely between shaft and housing.

Case halves with locating dowel pins that don’t actually line up the bearing seats, so bearings are miss aligned, reminiscent of two part press fit bottom bracket dramas. One can see this with the naked eye, you don’t need a precision coordinate measurement machine to work it out when you see the tell tale witness marks on the spindle and the spindle exits the casing not centred in the machined opening.

That’s just the motors. The batteries are just as fubar-ed.


Likely this has all come about from a combination of engineering not actually riding MTB, their corporate overlords meddling with designs to lock in future revenue, and no will to revise designs when issues are discovered.

Where do I sign???

 

[rockmoose]

Considering the entry level pricing, they are obviously a throw away item meant to be replaced annually.

 

[rowdyflat]

Reliability never entered the conversation with any of these design teams it would appear.

Every motor has at least one of the following issues, some many.

Carbon loaded industrial timing belts that are too narrow, their pitch too small, with no dynamic tensioner, loaded with carbon powder in the belt teeth faces to shift the wear away from the belts, with industrial grade petroleum jelly somehow expected to stay on the wear surfaces, running on nylon cogs with 14 teeth of engagement between cog and belt on the small cog.

Nylon spur and or helical gears expected to retain the grease from factory for life, when instead the grease migrates very quickly. Super tacky grease isn’t the answer.

Multi layer PCB’s glued into the assembly so removing the cover rips the pcb layers apart, enforcing the sealed for life intent.

Nasty low grade bearings with the hardness of a fine French cheese.

Custom sized bearings not found on the ISO tables in an attempt to lock in the customer with a “non repairable motor”.

Custom sprag clutches, again not adopted from the moped crowd to make things impossible.

Sealing from the elements a rough cut log wood cabin built in Canada in 1788 could surpass. It’s as if IP rating system (IEC 60529) doesn’t even exist. Warranty void if ridden on dirt on a dry day. Apparently the Subaru and bmw gasket experts were engaged to offer their finest solutions. Paper gaskets seal so well when one face is unsupported.

Shaft seals just not there, when a quad ring would fit just nicely between shaft and housing.

Case halves with locating dowel pins that don’t actually line up the bearing seats, so bearings are miss aligned, reminiscent of two part press fit bottom bracket dramas. One can see this with the naked eye, you don’t need a precision coordinate measurement machine to work it out when you see the tell tale witness marks on the spindle and the spindle exits the casing not centred in the machined opening.

That’s just the motors. The batteries are just as fubar-ed.


Likely this has all come about from a combination of engineering not actually riding MTB, their corporate overlords meddling with designs to lock in future revenue, and no will to revise designs when issues are discovered.

Thats depressing so they are all planned obsolescence carnts?
You obviously understand this stuff are any of them less worse?

 

[rextheute]

eBike Motor Repairs & Servicing - Homepage

eBike Motor Parts Repairs & Servicing, (formally, Performance Line Bearings) has become the “go to place” for all your e-Bike motor repairs...

www.ebikemotorcentre.com

I have a Bosch - 2018 I imagine co version - it’s a bit noisey , has a clunk - done about 6,500 km .
All with my fat sack on it - 100 plus kegs , ridden relatively hard , thru dirt , sand , mud , water up the head stock - long story - seems fine .
I treat my riding as an adventure , call it enduro , trails , fire roads , moto trails it’s all open to explore .

I actually haven’t charged or ridden since Feb ?
Turned on , went for a belt at full power - all good .

frame is a trek powerfly fs7 - the fork n rear shock are shagged , but operate , the bearings in suspension are fine .
My feeling is the tech is solid , even if you were to buy and older Bosch system - it’s a bit daggy in that the battery is visible - it’s reliable .
Any of the current offerings will be okay , fine , great .
just ride a couple and get a feel for what you like , geo and ride feel will dictate what is gonna work for you .

There is a YouTube of a fella doing long distance touring in Australia - flinders ranges , Darwin to Adelaide, gibb river Rd , towing a little trailer .
thousands of km and nil issues .

 

[Calvin27]

just ride a couple and get a feel for what you like , geo and ride feel will dictate what is gonna work for you .

I wouldn't overthink it. I know its a big spend but I reckon focus on the suspension design , geometry and parts spec of the bikes that land in that range you mentioned. Also don't let weight influence your choice. All E bikes are heavy IMO !

Pretty much what I am doing. The 20kg weight is because that's about where I'd want it to be. But above all motor reliability. As for suspension design etc, i'm in the camp of them being all more or less the same give or take. I'm not riding at that much of the limit to notice slight geo changes and besides I've got a big step up to modern geometry that I'm unwilling to take because it feels heaps different to ride, even on a pedal bike!

That’s just the motors. The batteries are just as fubar-ed.

v

Coming from a 12 year old bafang mid drive bolt on jobbie that hasn't ever let me down (it's still running wet weather commuting duties). I find it ridiculous that all the supposed big brands can't make a motor just work without problems. As for the batteries, same thing. I can buy an off the shelf battery to fit this ancient bafang. It's not even hard to find and i can literally walk into an ebile shop in melbourne and just walk out with it.

Honestly, its frustrating. there is not magic voodoo with batteries, just supply a voltage and a basic controller. The main thing is packaging and it's not har to standardise a plug and size/shape for the bulk of the bikes out there. Motors, I understand is still in development but even then none of them seem to design for reliability.

At this rate I am inclined to think that a custom bafang build might be the way to go.

 

[Flow-Rider]

At this rate I am inclined to think that a custom bafang build might be the way to go.

I looked at Banfang's high end frame and motor kits a while ago and it seems the best and cheapest option. Plenty of replacement parts, motors, and tools rather than trying to keep everything locked up in-house and overcharging as the major players do.

 

[Scotty T]

At this rate I am inclined to think that a custom bafang build might be the way to go.

The only thing I would worry about with a kit build would be battery mounting. There are several torque sensing kit motors on the market now, I would say torque sensing is essential for (technical) off road riding.

 

[Calvin27]

The only thing I would worry about with a kit build would be battery mounting. There are several torque sensing kit motors on the market now, I would say torque sensing is essential for (technical) off road riding.

Looking at the M820 which has torque sensing and seems to be light 2.3kg (relative to other bafang tank-bricks). Comes with their own battery system and apparently all the frames are bolt in plug and play. This is a relatively new unit though and they did change mount from the M500/600 series which just goes back to square 1, albeit it's a lot easier to get a hold of bafang parts. Can't see it too much different to shimano at this stage.

Then a mate sent me this: https://www.rideunionbikeco.com.au/...-pnw-alloy-complete-gx?variant=47575387046168

Holy moly, that is the most stealth ebike I've seens since those tdf cheats lol

 

[mark22]

Pretty much what I am doing. The 20kg weight is because that's about where I'd want it to be. But above all motor reliability. As for suspension design etc, i'm in the camp of them being all more or less the same give or take. I'm not riding at that much of the limit to notice slight geo changes and besides I've got a big step up to modern geometry that I'm unwilling to take because it feels heaps different to ride, even on a pedal bike!

imho it took me months to get used to a 20kg ebike with the extra bit of weight and more importantly the weight on the front.
So I reckon you would be OK with modern geo as the balance/ weight was the hard part for me.

The geo was not a problem but i did go from L to M as bikes have got longer, glad i did.

The full power long travel ebikes (26+)were too heavy for me, tried quite a few Knevo, Levo, Thok, Orbea Wild.

 

[Stredda]

I have a 2020 Specialized Levo SL which I took a bit of a punt and bought second hand. It had about 1200km on it when I bought in and it now has almost 10,000km on the clock. It's been a very reliable bike and at around 8,000km I did get the occasional slip from the sprag clutch when standing up and cranking hard. I bought a bearing and seal kit from Ebike Motor Centre and gave it a bit of a freshen up myself. After that it's been great again.
eBike Motor Service Parts & Repairs | Australia

I would steer clear of Shimano if you are going to keep the bike long term, as the Ebike motor service places won't touch them because Shimano won't share the fault codes and if the motor gets pulled apart and causes and error, you are screwed. Most of the other main brands all can be rebuilt and with some of them, the service places have upgrades for things like seals.

If I bought another bike, what would I get? I like the lightweight models and full power isn't a priority for me, and I like the more playful feel of a lighter bike, so I would go another Levo SL as they have proven to be a pretty reliable motor and you can rebuild them. I might look at something with the TQ motor, now it's had a bit of time on the market to see how reliable it is, but I would wait until one of the service places can rebuild them first, and Bosch has a new lightweight motor, so once again I'd wait and see if it can be serviced just like the others.
If I did go with a full powered bike, it would be a Bosch or Brose unit, as both can be serviced and a fairly well sorted now.
Like anything, I wouldn't buy the first of any new product and especially with Ebikes. Give them a year or so to see how they fair and for service centres to work out how to maintain them.

 

[Calvin27]

Cheers @Stredda .

I've been thinking about it and yeah shimano is off the list for that reaason. Pity, they seem ok but locking out thrid parties while not having an adequate supply chain is a real dick move - somthing I'd expect from sram!

Bosch is on the list but they have just changed mounts. Might not be a problem as they will probably keep the bigger mount for normal bikes. Would give yamaha a crack. I'd prefer those two over the spesh just because of the market share but there have been some solid deals on the levo a few months ago so it's hanging in there.

At the moment only one of my riding mates has crossed over (my ebike is a hardtail commuter) but the rest of us are getting jittery!