2007 Series suggestions

2007 suggestions

For the state series of DH the following gets my vote:

Threadbo, Lithgow, Grafton and Ourimbah for the state rounds and possibly the new Canberra track or any of the others for the state champs. If we go back to Canberra next year, please not in July, either Rnd 2 or last round so it will at least be above zero for registration. Coffs was so good this year. No its not all weather, but the track was so awesome on Sunday, I'll drive from Wollongong again next year and take the risk. Long weekend for Coffs is a winner. :D
 
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Old Shagger

Farkin Legend
thecat said:
If only Russ would write a patch to handle DH timing :D

I've been using Russ's stuff too. The big advantge (Other than live times for XC) is the ease of rego. For Dh I've been rego'ing in DURT and then exporting to an excel format for actual timing. AFAIK MTBA is getting a copy for all the National host this year.
A concerted effort should be made to track down Rob Strong..last i knew Qld somewhere...as his DH program was amazingly good...
Rob used to race XC and help out doing the timing on our DH races in the State Seried a few years back...
Does anybody know of his whereabouts...

Neil
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Fatman that was said:
A concerted effort should be made to track down Rob Strong..last i knew Qld somewhere...as his DH program was amazingly good...
Rob used to race XC and help out doing the timing on our DH races in the State Seried a few years back...
Does anybody know of his whereabouts...

Neil
He was still around but busy work load meant it was had to lock him into anything.

Castecs stuff is solid and getting better. They will also be developing XC programs for this years National series
 

Old Shagger

Farkin Legend
thecat said:
He was still around but busy work load meant it was had to lock him into anything.

Castecs stuff is solid and getting better. They will also be developing XC programs for this years National series
It would be a good thing to have a program that the NSW group owned, ran, each club could use and not have to pay lotsa$$$ to use, and my memory of Robs was it was a very user friendly system, saying that Casteck never has a problem either...all im getting at is Rob's had all the systems, if we could track him down and get a copy from him, the series and the clubs could get a big advantage from it...and the riders...
 

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
I think we've got a copy of Rob's DH stuff, MWMTB are still using the XC stuff.
Doesn't Russ's system cater for TTs (or have available as an option) - what's the difference between a TT & DH?
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
alchemist said:
I think we've got a copy of Rob's DH stuff, MWMTB are still using the XC stuff.
Doesn't Russ's system cater for TTs (or have available as an option) - what's the difference between a TT & DH?
It does but, AFAIA it can't handle fractions of a second. DH often comes don to that.

For XC Russ's system is the snizzle.

For DH you're better off hiring in someone like Castec. One less thing for the club to have to worry about.
 

Incontinent

Crusty Juggler
thecat said:
It does but, AFAIA it can't handle fractions of a second. DH often comes don to that.

For XC Russ's system is the snizzle.

For DH you're better off hiring in someone like Castec. One less thing for the club to have to worry about.
It's not just all about the timing either.
Russ' software is "the guts" for rego, membership details, pointscore allocations etc, etc. for formats (XC/DH/MTNX)


If pro timing is to used at all state and national DH races we don't need Robs program. I don't really think that we need anything too sofisticated for club level events. The way CCOMTB do it is quite simple,
"count down starts on full and/or half minutes etc"
Do you think we are getting a little too picky wanting 100th sec timing at club level?
I think it's much more important to have "rock solid" comms top to bottom.
The only times I have experienced problems with start timing etc is when the comms fucks up, it's not so much a timing software problem.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Incontinent said:
It's not just all about the timing either.
Russ' software is "the guts" for rego, membership details, pointscore allocations etc, etc. for formats (XC/DH/MTNX)
And it's just got better. The new version has an export to castec button :D
 

Le Matelot

Canberra Off-Road Cyclists
Some Info on DURT and DH Timing Issues

OK, a couple of things to bring up here, a bit long, but here goes...

MTBA will shortly be giving (yep - free) the FileMaker Pro database software plus the latest version of the DURT race software to all the clubs/organisations who will be staging the 06/07 national rounds plus the national championships. MTBA have also agreed to provide a cut-down set of data (due to privacy considerations) of the MTBA membership. This is used by the latest version of DURT to allow the user to register a rider simply by typing in their MTBA number, and the other info is loaded automatically. It will also validate their membership and warn you if it will have expired by race day. This was used at the NSW State DH at Mt Stromlo on 9 July and also at the NSW State XC Champs at Arcadia on 16 July.

As The Cat has said, the registration module of DURT will then export a data file for use by CASTECH in a format which has already been agreed with them. Its a one-click process. Copy the file onto a memory stick and hand it to CASTECH and that’s it. This was trialed at the NSW State DH at Mt Stromlo on 9 July and announced at the MTBA promoters forum on 15 July.

For organisers who use an online registration system, the ability is still in DURT to import data from your online system.

So, that provides consistency across the national series. It also makes it easier for producing series results, because the naming of riders across the series will be consistent.


In terms of using DURT for DH timing, yes a DH race is a time trial and you can use the time trial module for that right now but only if you're happy with results displayed to 1 second. I only display results in DURT to 1 second because the input method is manual and you need to consider human reaction times in calculating the error budget. I can display times to (ridiculous) decimals of a second but because of the manual input method they wouldn't mean anything in an accuracy sense.

The on-screen timing results display for DH in the DURT time trial module provides the usual most recent 15 riders' times, plus across the bottom are 3 extra waterfall displays - for the top 10 men, top 10 women and the top 10 places in the category of the rider who just crossed the line.

In terms of the displayed times for DH, there can be a big difference between the actual accuracy of a time and the displayed resolution of a time. And, how far do you want to go anyhow? For example, something like 1/1000 of a second? At the speed of a DH bike, 1/1000 of a second is about how long it takes the bike to travel the height of a knob on the tire.

Having said all that, I am working on a 1/100 second display time for the time trial module of DURT, and also working on an inexpensive means of triggering the timing. You can't have one without the other. Without some reliable and accurate means of triggering the system, anything to the right of the decimal point is meaningless. I am also re-working the option for totally manual input if you want to use DURT for rego and results for DH. This is what I did at the Nationals DH at Mt Buller in 2004, taking input from Buller's ski timing system.

DURT will automatically produce start lists for DH races if you want to count people off, and if you have a second laptop, it will also allow one to be set up at the top of the course as a programmed start timer, which automatically calls up riders and counts them down to their allocated start time, and beeps them off. These don't have to be connected and can be used to get around the communication problem between the top and the bottom of the course. This is pretty much Tour-de-France time trial rules, where if you miss your allocated start time, you are in trouble. There are several road cycling clubs in the UK who use this feature for thier time trials.
 
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thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Love your work Russ.
We have gates, beams and stopwatches available. If you can work out how to get them to trigger the laptop that would be the bees knees.
 

spewyogrady

Likes Dirt
Suggestions 2007

Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks
 

demo man

Used to be cool.
spewyewi said:
Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks

variations like those exist because each race is run by a different club - and there are no standards or agreements between the clubs and NSWMTB.

in terms of prices, you can't have a consistant cost, because it costs different clubs different amounts of money to run the races.


a break down of each riders entry fee is hard to do, because the way i do budgets at least is like this:

total costs = x
est. riders = y
entry = x divided by Y rounded up a little bit.

the costs for a 4X race are not too bad, you have toilets, prozes and first Aid. depending on the club's property you will also need a PA, at least one computer and fast printer (may need to rent), radios, start gate, heaters (if it's going to be cold), tents, tables, chairs etc.

There is very litle profit made from any MTB race (unless it's held at thredbo), as they are all run for the good of the sport really.

XC costs are similar.

DH gets much more expensive though, as you have trailers, busses, and professional timing as well.


MTBA gets very little, most of their funds come from day licenses and membership fees.

NSWMTB takes $2 per rider at all state races for series medals etc.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
spewyewi said:
How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks
Pretty much cost recovery. Clubs usually have to pay an access fee to the landmanager, this varies depending on the site. Then there's all the hire gear and toilets and power and PAs and.... Some venues are fortunite enoght to have a lot of this but others have to bring it all in.

Then there is First Aid. Some organiseations charge a flat fee others just ask for a donation.
So with so much varitant it's hard to set a standard for all venues.

MTBA gets nothing other than Licences and Day licence fees. The NSW branch imposes a small levie which is than used to purchase state medals and so forth.

If any thing is left over (doesn't happen often) it goes to the club. Considering they generally spend a fair bit on track maintanence through out the year this goes back into the community
 
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sammydog

NSWMTB, Hunter MTB Association
spewyewi said:
Possibly...Some sort of Uniformity for Age Grouping and Pricing at State Rounds.

XC Round 4 SORC. Entry Form stated no entries under the age of 12
XC Champs MWMTB,$25.. Under 13's with a reduced entry fee.
XC at Killingworth $35, no reduced price for Juniors. Apparently one parent of a regular Junior rider pulled the pin at the rego desk...

4X Goulburn, reduced price for Juniors
4X at Homebush, $30? $35? can't remember....
4X at Black Hill Tomorrow $50.00 or $40 pre entry which closed a week ago.

why the variation in pricing?

Now this may be petty but $50 seems a bit steep for one race...

Also which club is running the 4x at Black Hill Tomorrow? This may also be petty/nitpicking but I would rather be making out a pre-entry chq or Credit Card Authorisation form to a recognised MTB Club.

I realise that all these events are run by volunteers and that these events are far from an easy thing to manage...

What is the breakdown of entry fees? Does MTBA get a percentage? How much goes to the clubs? Is it just straight cost recovery?

thanks

HMBA are sanctioning the event at blackhill. I think with the amount of $$$ and effort that the guys have put into the black hill track, $40 for pre entry really isn't that much. I'd be surpirsed if they have come close to even paying off the earthworks and dirt that has been brought in. I don't think a $10 penalty for entering on the day is much of a cost either, pre entry to me is worth more than $10 when organising a race.

I wasn't aware of any parents at the killi XC pulling the pin at the rego desk, but I do know we should have charged extra to baby sit two of the junior riders that were there all day doing their best to mess things up.

Clubs make sweet F.A out of running the state races and from our perspective (HMBA) we charge what we need to to cover costs and still hand out decent cash prizes. Other than the working week series races, not much income comes into our club from running major events. SO I guess from your question, it is pretty much cost recovery with the rest pumped back into prizes.

That said, even though we don't get a lot $$$ wise out of races, we (and I think this would go for most clubs) will continue to put races on, because there is a huge amount of satisfaction that comes from putting on a good weekend of racing for the riders. Personally I enjoy putting the races on as much as I do racing them.
 

spewyogrady

Likes Dirt
Thanks

Fair enough...

Huge respect to you guys for doing what you do. My kids get a lot of pleasure from racing their bikes and that is due to people like yourselves putting the effort in. We would have loved to be at Black Hill tomorrow but football and family events have bumped it. I would have smarted at the $100, but for the enjoyment it gives, it would have been worth it.
 

sammydog

NSWMTB, Hunter MTB Association
I'm in the same situation, had every intention of racing tomorrow, but football (the roundball variety) has killed my asperations. I was only a contender for last place anyway, but its always a great day.
 

saundo

Likes Dirt
Is it posible that we can have two race runs for all riders next year or is there a specfic reason we dont i.e lack of time or something becasue two race runs for all riders would be heaps good.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
With the numbers we've been getting there's bearly enough time to get 1 run in
 

Incontinent

Crusty Juggler
saundo said:
Is it posible that we can have two race runs for all riders next year or is there a specfic reason we dont i.e lack of time or something becasue two race runs for all riders would be heaps good.

Would be great if we had 20hrs of daylight.
We are flat out getting through the current format.
State series is typically run through the winter months when daylight hours are precious.

I'm sure time keepers, marshals and starter would just love to spend an extra 2-3hrs or so on the hill.
Don't suggest starting race runs at 9.00 or 10.00am either, riders have to practice the track at least once on race day.
 

saundo

Likes Dirt
Yeh thats true its always to get a few pratcie runs on the morning of the race. i thought that might be the case for not getting 2 runs
 
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