29er spoke tension

[Oldas]

Hi guys

First gentle ride out on the weekend and I'm noticing a slight buckle already in my stand ztr arch rims. Upon feeling the spoke tension they feel quite easy to flex. I'm wondering by feel what is the general consensus on this. Should they be tight or have a fair amount of play.

1 ride in and I'm off to the bike shop to get the rear trued already.

Is this normal on a 29er?

 

[sidetrack]

Mate I had issues with this as well. Everyone kept telling me that they shouldnt be as tight as 26ers and I went through 3 rims in 6 months. I got very fed up with it all and built up a set of FRM 388 with DB dt's and BRASS nipples and asked the builder to tighten the $%^&& out of them. Havent had an issue 3 month later, not even a true and they are heaps stiffer he did a spanken job.

 

[JP]

Why shouldn't they be as tight as a 26er? If anything shouldn't they need more tension?

 

[mathew b]

just got 29er

i just got a 29er and its been great for me doing what i want it to do.

 

[Oldas]

Mate I had issues with this as well. Everyone kept telling me that they shouldnt be as tight as 26ers and I went through 3 rims in 6 months. I got very fed up with it all and built up a set of FRM 388 with DB dt's and BRASS nipples and asked the builder to tighten the $%^&& out of them. Havent had an issue 3 month later, not even a true and they are heaps stiffer he did a spanken job.

Thanks mate

I went over the wheels spoke by spoke last night and some are quite loose, intact very loose which can't be right. I always thought Stans wheel sets were built at No tubes then sent to cannondale. But that can't be right. My rear has some loose and some super tight, the front wheel, which remains true, has some spokes so loose they should have fallen out.

I'm taking it in this morning I will let you know the outcome. I would prefer to take it to a wheel builder, if such a thing exists in Melbourne anymore? But, as it is one ride old I want to ask some questions and have it looked at before I have an accident descending like a pro lol.

Cheers

 

[Electric Panda]

Thanks mate

I went over the wheels spoke by spoke last night and some are quite loose, intact very loose which can't be right. I always thought Stans wheel sets were built at No tubes then sent to cannondale. But that can't be right. My rear has some loose and some super tight, the front wheel, which remains true, has some spokes so loose they should have fallen out.

I'm taking it in this morning I will let you know the outcome. I would prefer to take it to a wheel builder, if such a thing exists in Melbourne anymore? But, as it is one ride old I want to ask some questions and have it looked at before I have an accident descending like a pro lol.

Cheers

Stans rims generally build 80-90psi tension because they don't use eyelets... FRM can build to 130+ if you want because they use eyelets... obviously a stiffer, more robust wheel is the result.
I was speaking to a guy who builds the carbon wheels for Monza and he swears by 6av(?) ti spokes - not the cheap chinese ones - on eyeleted rims (he uses FRM a bit I think as well) becasue he reckons that once you have the tension in them ti is as good as thin stainless steel. It would be interesting to give them a shot - unfortunately they are expensive compared to a $600 Stans wheel

 

[Big JD]

Stans rims

I have had a number of sets of Stans rims and it really depends on the builder. The last set of Flows on Kings are shocking and continuously loose, I just tighten them all up. I am not a wheelbuilder so I simply do the tighten by tone method i.e. similar tone when flicked (Emajor).
I have been told by a few different builders that Stans rims are a little more delicate to build with and you cant get the same amount of tension on the inital build as the rimes are softer (perhaps the eyelets area). I had a Arch on Hopes that far out shine my Flows on Kings as far as retaining tension in the wheel - it is all about the build. There are only a few wheel builders in Melbourne that i now trust to build my wheels after trying many different ones - happy to pass on details if required.
I am a big guy and actually prefer a more boxy style rim (DT Swiss, Mavic). Velocity are (and should be) a viable alternative to Stans. What is with the Stans rim strips - take up too much room in the rim well and cant get tyres to seat. Dont get me started on the yellow tape and sealant - expensive, messy, hit and miss, tape falls apart, no real ust options (tubeless ready is not UST). I had a Racing Ralph EVO Tubeless explode off my rim, completely breaking the bead and putting my rim out of true on the weekend. The tyre had to be thrown and rim repaired. I had put 45 psi in the tyre to ride to work and perhaps due to the extreme heat it just popped. I dont think the rim bead/locking is up to the task. Give me a true USt rim and tyre please.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Slackening spoke tensions are very common in any new wheel regardless of make, model, build or builder. I just had a new pair of wheels on the cyclocross bike slacken right off over the first 200km - virtually every spoke just loosened off. Before this I had a couple of nipples in a new Crank Bros wheelset slacken off as did three eyeletted spokes in a Giant PXC-2 wheelset. Horses for courses...

As for spoke tensions in a 29er...it depends on the spoke, nipple and rim combination not on the size of the wheels...

 

[Larryscustomcycles]

Slackening spoke tensions are very common in any new wheel regardless of make, model, build or builder. I just had a new pair of wheels on the cyclocross bike slacken right off over the first 200km - virtually every spoke just loosened off. Before this I had a couple of nipples in a new Crank Bros wheelset slacken off as did three eyeletted spokes in a Giant PXC-2 wheelset. Horses for courses...

As for spoke tensions in a 29er...it depends on the spoke, nipple and rim combination not on the size of the wheels...

Errr, ummm....I'd be a bit upset if wheels I built lost tension just because they were new. The only reason they will lose tension is because the spokes weren't evenly tightened to begin with. Or because you really tweaked it!

Stans rims for whatever reasons just don't cop as much tension as pretty much any others. Its not because they don't have eyelets...neither does a Velocity blunt yet they take as much as anything else. It all gets very ugly when you tension a stans rim as high as usual...

There should be no difference between 26in & 29in wheels spoke tension everything else being equal. The limiting factor is almost always the rim, spokes, hubs and nipples take piles more tension than nearly every rim.

 

[MountGower]

Roger Musson in his highly respected book on wheel building claims that regardless of rider weight or type of riding, there is one tension for all wheels and that's "tight". He makes special mention of ZTR rims and says they are no exception.

My ZTR Flows are my 4th build and they have been great and are well tight enough. I have not been easy on them by any means. If things went pear shaped from good tension, they just wouldn't sell them to so many top shelf builders around the world. I'd look at the Pacenti TL28 or WTB Frequency I23, but only out of curiosity.

 

[Stevob]

I had Crest 29er rims laced with DT Revolution spokes by Greg @ TWE last June, and they've been true ever since. Not a single loose spoke, and I ride hard on a rigid SS.

It's all in the wheel builder.

 

[Big JD]

Errr, ummm....I'd be a bit upset if wheels I built lost tension just because they were new. The only reason they will lose tension is because the spokes weren't evenly tightened to begin with. Or because you really tweaked it!

Stans rims for whatever reasons just don't cop as much tension as pretty much any others. Its not because they don't have eyelets...neither does a Velocity blunt yet they take as much as anything else. It all gets very ugly when you tension a stans rim as high as usual...

There should be no difference between 26in & 29in wheels spoke tension everything else being equal. The limiting factor is almost always the rim, spokes, hubs and nipples take piles more tension than nearly every rim.

Your builds are terrifc larry despite you build under the influence of beer - I have had so many issues with a different build - it all comes down to builder me thinks.

 

[Sumgy]

Your builds are terrifc larry despite you build under the influence of beer - I have had so many issues with a different build - it all comes down to builder me thinks.

Agree.
I have one wheel builder in Brisbane that I keep going back to as he builds so well.
Once he builds them i have not needed to go back with them.
He sees me again when I want a new wheel built.

 

[Oldas]

Well I have them back.

The guy snapped a spoke while adjusting them, and to be honest looking at them they seem to wobble a little more than before.. The spokes are super tight, which has me worried reading Guy's post.

Stressed, time for a second opinion I guess.

 

[Larryscustomcycles]

Well I have them back.

The guy snapped a spoke while adjusting them, and to be honest looking at them they seem to wobble a little more than before.. The spokes are super tight, which has me worried reading Guy's post.

Stressed, time for a second opinion I guess.

Ok, thats a really bad sign...chances are now they have over tightened them and its uneven...I have never broken a spoke building or truing a wheel, thats just ham fisted horribleness.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Errr, ummm....I'd be a bit upset if wheels I built lost tension just because they were new.

Of course you would be. I never said I actually liked the situation!!!! The only wheel set that hasn't had a decline in spoke tension on one or more spokes was one built by hand by the LBS. So this may be due to the fact that this was the only wheel set I've had that was not made on a machine or it may be due to the fact that the wheel builder knew I would kick him in the head if he didn't get it right...

 

[SummitFever]

There's more than a few urban myths floating around wheelbuilding.

Spoke tensions need to be enough that at no time do any of the spokes go slack.

Higher spoke tensions DO NOT result in a stiffer wheel, provided your spoke tensions are enough that the spokes are not going slack when riding. Wheel stiffness is dependant on the elasticity of the spokes used. How much tension a spoke is under has no effect on how much it can stretch. Also higher spoke tensions do not necessarily build a stronger wheel but too high a spoke tension will damage a rim (particularly non-eyeletted types). Tension your spokes to what the rim manufacturer recommends.

To build the strongest wheel, aim for the most even spoke tensions (obviously DS/NDS tensions will be different but all DS tensions and all NDS tensions should be as close as possible to each other). For disc wheels I will always sacrifice some radial and lateral trueness (up to +/- 0.5mm) to try for even spoke tension.

As others have said, spoke tension is dictated by the rim and manufacturer. No general rule about a difference in tension between 29er/26er etc.

Get a Park TM-1 spoke tension meter. Around $80 from Wiggle. It'll take all of the guess work out of it for you. It is extremely difficult to judge spoke tension by the "squeeze it" method unless you have an identical wheel (rim/spoke/hub) on hand. If you've got a good ear you can use pitch to get the tensions even, but pitch will not tell you absolute tension values.

 

[ozzybmx]

I have built 2 sets of Stans 29 wheels, they recommend 100kgf max tension on all their rims. The non drive side will be about 25% less so around 75kgf.

I rode a set of perfect tensioned crests that i built for around 9 months (im 95kg) without even truing them.

Experienced wheelbuilders will tell you a tensionmeter is a waste of money but to novice wheelbuilders like myself it was GOLD . I bought my Park TM1 at Jensons, it was the cheapest at $59us.

 

[SummitFever]

$59 as great price!

...Experienced wheelbuilders will tell you a tensionmeter is a waste of money...

Some may say that, but if you're building a $500 set of wheels whats an extra $59? Also, its next to impossible to get exactly 100kgf by "feel". I didn't get a tension meter until I started building wheels using Stans rims, but now I use my TM-1 all the time. My latest set of wheels is just over 1240g, I've put about 1800km on them offroad (including 320km in 4 days with 10kg of extra gear) and they have remained true and are a surprisingly solid set of wheels.

At $59 for a tensionmeter, I'd recommend everyone gets one. Even if you're not building your own wheels, you can check your wheels and keep them in tip-top shape.

 

[sossy]

Well I have them back.

The guy snapped a spoke while adjusting them, and to be honest looking at them they seem to wobble a little more than before.. The spokes are super tight, which has me worried reading Guy's post.

Stressed, time for a second opinion I guess.

If you're looking for a wheel builder in Mel, then I would head to Dan at Shifterbikes or Andy at Kaos Custom bikes.

I have had wheels built by Dan as well as had all my other wheels trued and tensioned there. Andy also does some amazing work, either of them will leave you smiling and riding with confidence.