Any PTs, Nutritionists or Fitness Guru's get in here.

NoFearNick7

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I'm so wonderfully happy with the creation of this new section of the forum because I was thinking about posting this question in General section but it seemed too 'general', thus why I didn't post it.

I'm in the process of training for a 200km ride (over 2 days, The Ride to Conquer Cancer), so I've been doing regular long road rides as well as some XC in prep for that. I've recently joined the gym again for strength training and hypertrophy and I know that the two are somewhat counter productive to each other in terms of diet and affecting metabolism.

The question is, what sort of diet and training program should I be aiming for to maximize both strength and endurance?

At the present I train 5-6 times a week and ride twice (on the weekend), average about 2500-3000 calories a day, with a diet consisting mostly of protein/carbs and a moderate amount of fats.

I'm limited in the fact that I work full time and study at night. So I wake up daily at 5am to train at the gym before work and don't have much time for meal prep.

For those interested, my stats are;
75kg @ ~13% bf and 5'11
Bench 1RM 80kg
Deadlift 1RM 150kg
Squat 1RM 100kg
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Pretty good starting point is the Australian sports commission website - it's written in lay language as the majority of athletes don't have a clue what they should be eating or how they should be training.

It's got lots of info on diet, supplements and training approaches, although I've noticed they don't advertise exactly what they do with elite athletes, they keep that secret unless you know someone.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/faq/nutrition_basics

Strength and endurance are a hard thing to train for together depending on what you mean by strength (1RM). Concurrent training wipes out much of the adaptation from resistance training (but if you are only riding weekends that largely minimised? - although only riding weekends cycling endurance will be hard to increase). You need to periodise your training focus on one aspect then the other, typically focus on strength, while doing a maintenance program for endurance, as the even get closer taper off strength training (train only enough to maintain) then focus on cycle endurance. Often this is done in 3 month cycle - it depends how long away the event is (Edit:Ah i see its 13-14 oct. definitely focus on more time in the saddle over gym and taper off 7-10 days before the event).

Can i just confirm you are at gym every week day and only cycling on weekends (due to time constraints)?
 
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driftking

Wheel size expert
I'm not qualified nor a professional in this area though I may be able to help.
First up you mentioned hypertrophy strength and endurance which two are you focusing on, strength and hypertrophy are not in the same boat.

It is possible to train two ways but it's not really effective, your workouts on the bike should be enough endurance with gym focusing on hypertrophy. You can axhieve what you want with the upper body but strengthening the legs or increasing hypertrophy while endurance training is someone going to not so much cancel out but not really improve greatly, you need to develop a periodisation program. As MWI said generally the goal is to improve one aspect while maintaining the other then taper and switch over.

Either way the good thing is you need to be in a anobolic state. This is much easier to work with, it is hard to say eat this ratio of foods and eat this amount of calories as everyone's body will vary.
What I can help with is try to get in the habit of preparing meals into containers that you can easily eat or heat up. You really want to eat every 2-3 hours no more than 4 hours between meals. You want to eat all complex carbs and only use simple carbs when requires like medical reasons or after workouts for replenishment and yes you can have them in the morning too, because you are not trying to loose weight to ahead and eat fruit all day of you wish (these are simple carbs) but its ok as long as you also eat complex carbs. Protien wise you want to get from whole foods, whey shake with simple carbs after a workout is good and then eat 1-2 hours later. You want a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 of carbs to protien. Many body builder eat way too muh protien. There are reccomendations of 1.5-2g/lb body weight. Which is a fair amount. Though that said I'm like 60kg and on a 4000cal diet I am looking at like 225grams a day. You need to keep your your fluid with more protien to help the kidneys and make see its spaces between meals not dumped.
Before bed aim to stop carbs 3hours prior, you can eat fat and protien before bed but no carbs (or as little as possible) before bed aim for casien protien the slower absorbtion will aid energy while you sleep, having some fat like EFA's will help keep calories up and slow down protien breakdown a little further.
Now the reason, when we sleep our growth hormone peaks about 30min-1hour (I believe it's been a while) after we fall asleep this is responsible for building muscle and burning fat. When we consume carb the insulin released inhibits Gh from peaking resulting in less building and more storing of fat in the body.
Eat a balanced diet full of colours, fruit veggies lean proteins, replace your bad fats with good fats avocados almond spread instead of peanut butter, walnuts. Fatty fish like salmon.

With workouts focus on your percentages of 1RM and also your recovery, your recovery between sets also dictates the type of development you experience. Im not 100% on the number right now so i'll have to get back to it later.

What you eat is very personal you need to detail this to your age, gender, medical needs or concerns, genetics And goals.
In terms of supplements I always say real food over supplements though they can be helpful, I would only use protien and that's it, also at something says 100% whey that's doesn't mean it's all whey you need to look on the back and see per 100g and see how much protien you get in that 100g. Most tend to be like 75-95%.

Supplements and diet are way to personal to say do this or that on a forum.

Disclaimer: I am not qualified nor a proffeasional in this area and therefore anything you may or may not use in my post is your own decision and at your own risk, all information is from sources that are publicly avaliable in books or on the Internet and this is where my knowledge comes from. It may or may not be correct so again proceed at your own risk.
You should always consult a medical professional in regards To any diet, supplement or exercise changes you make.
 
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disappearin

Likes Dirt
I agree with drifting, ALOT of people overdo the protein.

One of the best ways I've found to keep track of my diet and intake is to use an app on my phone. A lot of professional athletes use them as well. I'm currently using 'myfitnesspal' but are heaps others if you search. Makes counting calories, carbs, protein and fat intakes easy. Also counts sugars, salts and vitamin intakes too.
 

Anarchist

Likes Dirt
Like the others, im not a professional, but i do take an active interest. All of the above info is good. In regard to diet, I would add that any alcohol that you consume has many calories and is a carb, so slowing down on the grog is a good idea, especially nightcaps. For protein, I like eggs because they are tasty and quick. I'm talking cooked (poached actually).

Eating quality food after a workout should be done with minimal delay. This gets the good stuff in quickly and aids recovery, which leads to less fatigue and better traing which leads to better performance. So the theory goes. Remember to rest up between sessions. Get good sleep. If you are having trouble sleeping, you might be overdoing it. It is better to undertrain than overtrain.

I agree that spending more time on the bike is better at this late stage. Strength work for me takes at least 4 weeks before seeing any result or benefit (and it falls away just as fast).
 

NoFearNick7

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Sorry for the delay in replying guys, my immune system carked it last night and I got hit with the flu worse than I've ever experienced in my life (possible overtraining?). However, I went to sleep at 6PM last night and woke up at 8 today, so the 14 hours sleep seems to have helped significantly. I was planning on hitting the gym again today but decided, recovering to 100% would be a better idea.

Strength and endurance are a hard thing to train for together depending on what you mean by strength (1RM). Concurrent training wipes out much of the adaptation from resistance training (but if you are only riding weekends that largely minimised? - although only riding weekends cycling endurance will be hard to increase). You need to periodise your training focus on one aspect then the other, typically focus on strength, while doing a maintenance program for endurance, as the even get closer taper off strength training (train only enough to maintain) then focus on cycle endurance. Often this is done in 3 month cycle - it depends how long away the event is (Edit:Ah i see its 13-14 oct. definitely focus on more time in the saddle over gym and taper off 7-10 days before the event).

Can i just confirm you are at gym every week day and only cycling on weekends (due to time constraints)?
MWI, I read through your post and I'd first like to thank you for the depth of information you put into the response. I was really looking after specifics, not a generalised diet/nutrition/training regimes as I've already got a pretty sound knowledge on how to eat/train for either discipline (strength of endurance that is). I was really chasing if there were any specific ways to train for both at the same time.

That first assumption that I cycle only on weekends is correct and my strength training sessions go Sunday-Friday (Saturday is my day off). I'll take your advice on periodising my training though, focusing on endurance at the present; however I'm not sure how this will work out since I only have time to ride on weekends? Maybe I'll have to visit the cardio section of my gym *shudders*

I'm not qualified nor a professional in this area though I may be able to help.
First up you mentioned hypertrophy strength and endurance which two are you focusing on, strength and hypertrophy are not in the same boat.

It is possible to train two ways but it's not really effective, your workouts on the bike should be enough endurance with gym focusing on hypertrophy. You can axhieve what you want with the upper body but strengthening the legs or increasing hypertrophy while endurance training is someone going to not so much cancel out but not really improve greatly, you need to develop a periodisation program. As MWI said generally the goal is to improve one aspect while maintaining the other then taper and switch over.

Either way the good thing is you need to be in a anobolic state. This is much easier to work with, it is hard to say eat this ratio of foods and eat this amount of calories as everyone's body will vary.
What I can help with is try to get in the habit of preparing meals into containers that you can easily eat or heat up. You really want to eat every 2-3 hours no more than 4 hours between meals. You want to eat all complex carbs and only use simple carbs when requires like medical reasons or after workouts for replenishment and yes you can have them in the morning too, because you are not trying to loose weight to ahead and eat fruit all day of you wish (these are simple carbs) but its ok as long as you also eat complex carbs. Protien wise you want to get from whole foods, whey shake with simple carbs after a workout is good and then eat 1-2 hours later. You want a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 of carbs to protien. Many body builder eat way too muh protien. There are reccomendations of 1.5-2g/lb body weight. Which is a fair amount. Though that said I'm like 60kg and on a 4000cal diet I am looking at like 225grams a day. You need to keep your your fluid with more protien to help the kidneys and make see its spaces between meals not dumped.
Before bed aim to stop carbs 3hours prior, you can eat fat and protien before bed but no carbs (or as little as possible) before bed aim for casien protien the slower absorbtion will aid energy while you sleep, having some fat like EFA's will help keep calories up and slow down protien breakdown a little further.
Now the reason, when we sleep our growth hormone peaks about 30min-1hour (I believe it's been a while) after we fall asleep this is responsible for building muscle and burning fat. When we consume carb the insulin released inhibits Gh from peaking resulting in less building and more storing of fat in the body.
Eat a balanced diet full of colours, fruit veggies lean proteins, replace your bad fats with good fats avocados almond spread instead of peanut butter, walnuts. Fatty fish like salmon.

With workouts focus on your percentages of 1RM and also your recovery, your recovery between sets also dictates the type of development you experience. Im not 100% on the number right now so i'll have to get back to it later.
I should have clarified that I'm aiming for predominantly hypertrophy at the moment, but definitely still focusing on strength also. I've made a lot of notes down on the diet tips, though my fast metabolism makes it very difficult for me to gain any sort of weight. It seems like a lot of effort to calculate your macros (specific protein, carb, fats, etc grams per day) so I've avoided doing so. I do attempt to count my calories however and if I'm running low on any given day, I'll eat a few spoonfuls of peanut butter or such as my last meal.

I have recently started taking half servings mass gainer daily, which adds an extra 650-800 calories (water-milk) to it so I should see some results from such. And to be honest, I don't really eat much vegetables or fruits, I've just been getting fibre from oats and such. I've always been under the impression that while it's not optimal, you can supplement all the vitamins and minerals you would get from fruit/veg, which is what I've been previously doing.

Like the others, im not a professional, but i do take an active interest. All of the above info is good. In regard to diet, I would add that any alcohol that you consume has many calories and is a carb, so slowing down on the grog is a good idea, especially nightcaps. For protein, I like eggs because they are tasty and quick. I'm talking cooked (poached actually).

Eating quality food after a workout should be done with minimal delay. This gets the good stuff in quickly and aids recovery, which leads to less fatigue and better traing which leads to better performance. So the theory goes. Remember to rest up between sessions. Get good sleep. If you are having trouble sleeping, you might be overdoing it. It is better to undertrain than overtrain.

I agree that spending more time on the bike is better at this late stage. Strength work for me takes at least 4 weeks before seeing any result or benefit (and it falls away just as fast).
Lucky for me I don't drink alcohol ;) I do enjoy eggs also, I've been considering eating them raw with condensed milk and soda water (srs) for convenience and extra protein.

I usually don't get much of a chance for proper food after a workout because I eat before going to the gym and by the time I finish it's time for work, though I do have my protein shake.
 

blanket_melb

Likes Dirt
Hey mate,

Considering your looking into an event over a long duration, I'd highly recommend doing some periodization training prior to the event.
Essentially you would divide an annual training plan into smaller phases of training to

• Pre-Plan with a flexible/adaptable approach
• Formulate an overall structure
• Join physiological training with technique learning and recovery
• Used as a method of preventing overtraining
• When to change the stimulus

This will help break your program into more manageable segments of an annual plan, ensures peak performance occurs at main competition,Means of developing specific components(As you mentioned you were interested in working previously)strength, speed, power, tactics, endurance.

If you have any questions or need any help with anything (training, food etc) feel free to contact me.

I'm also a Clinical Exc Sci student/ PT if that means much at all.
 

jumpers

Likes Dirt
Hey mate,

Considering your looking into an event over a long duration, I'd highly recommend doing some periodization training prior to the event.
Essentially you would divide an annual training plan into smaller phases of training to

• Pre-Plan with a flexible/adaptable approach
• Formulate an overall structure
• Join physiological training with technique learning and recovery
• Used as a method of preventing overtraining
• When to change the stimulus

This will help break your program into more manageable segments of an annual plan, ensures peak performance occurs at main competition,Means of developing specific components(As you mentioned you were interested in working previously)strength, speed, power, tactics, endurance.

If you have any questions or need any help with anything (training, food etc) feel free to contact me.

I'm also a Clinical Exc Sci student/ PT if that means much at all.
Have to agree with you here. There is all this talk on training yet nothing about periodisation of the training program. If you dont train in periodised blocks you will just plateau. I worked as swim coach for ten yrs (national and international level) - my whole year would be planned out - from the macro 52 week block done to micro day sessions etc. need work on programming - hard/ moderate / recovery / rest days/blocks/ weeks etc. Work out how long to spend on endurance base, then speed endurance, anaerobic then speed etc.

I suggest look into training programs and how to structure.

Whilst coaching national teams we monitored heart rates alot - but mainly for recovery issues. If the heart rate in the morning was 10+ / - the normal average then it was either rest or recovery - served us well for ten years
 
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driftking

Wheel size expert
I am like you I can eat tonnes of food each day and struggle to gain 1kg a week yet I stop eating for 2days and I'll drop 1kg. I have a very high BMR.
Yes you can supplement your micro nutrients but it's not really ideal. you want to try to eat a good source of micro and macros at each meal and supplementing tends to I've you this one hit. You want a steady constant supply of energy, also supplements are expensive and you can get more bang for your buck by consuming a mix of fruit and veg. The way some nutrients are structured too may be different to the pill or supplement form which can be better absorbed, for best absorption rates supplements tend to be higher priced and the quality increases.

Check what the gainer has in it a lot of them can be full of crap.
You said you haven't been bothered to calculation too much so just aim for a nutrient dense and full calories, stead clear of empty and low nutrient dense foods. And aim for while and low to zero possessing. Supplements should be used when needed but not relied on.

It all starts with a good total diet.
What type of calorie numbers are you consuming now?
The biggest thing that stands out is hat you don't eat lots of fruit or veg. So even of you are consuming 3000calories if they are fairly empty they won't help much in the way of building strength or muscle.

I personally need to eat about 3000calories To maintain my weight without exercise. Most people don't eat enough to gain.
 
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