Berms and my flame suit

ducky1988

Likes Dirt
So over the winter some people at my local trail network built up some berms to help them get through of camber corners.
While they were building I mentioned that they were probably left flat for a reason by the professional trail builders that established the trails.
I proceeded to inform them that the dirt in the area turns to a fine dust in summer and they need to put a sufficient amount of dirt there to keep them sustainable.

They fired up at me and said if I was so "hardcore" and "pro", I should be there helping them. I said I would be if I didn't work 6 days a weeks as it is.

Fast forward to today, I was riding along at pace, it was dusty and I was riding well within my limits. Next minute I enter one of the new berms and bang, I hit the deck. After checking for wet spots and lumps, I turn around to see half the berm gone and a whole bunch of rocks in its place.
After inspection I noticed the berm has been built up with rocks and a thin layer of dirt placed over the rocks to make it ride able. Now, I know this technique can be extremely effective with clay and more malleable and vicious dirt but, this dust did nothing to hold the structure together.

After I come home and clean my now shredded arm and ribs, I leave a festive message on the local Facebook group. Basically I said that the berms are dangerous and perhaps should be re-worked. In reply I got ripped to shred by others on the page for not riding within my limits etc.

What I want to know is, was i in the wrong? Or was it ok of me to point this out to fellow riders?
 

EsPeGe

Likes Bikes and Dirt
So over the winter some people at my local trail network built up some berms to help them get through of camber corners.
While they were building I mentioned that they were probably left flat for a reason by the professional trail builders that established the trails.
I proceeded to inform them that the dirt in the area turns to a fine dust in summer and they need to put a sufficient amount of dirt there to keep them sustainable.

They fired up at me and said if I was so "hardcore" and "pro", I should be there helping them. I said I would be if I didn't work 6 days a weeks as it is.

Fast forward to today, I was riding along at pace, it was dusty and I was riding well within my limits. Next minute I enter one of the new berms and bang, I hit the deck. After checking for wet spots and lumps, I turn around to see half the berm gone and a whole bunch of rocks in its place.
After inspection I noticed the berm has been built up with rocks and a thin layer of dirt placed over the rocks to make it ride able. Now, I know this technique can be extremely effective with clay and more malleable and vicious dirt but, this dust did nothing to hold the structure together.

After I come home and clean my now shredded arm and ribs, I leave a festive message on the local Facebook group. Basically I said that the berms are dangerous and perhaps should be re-worked. In reply I got ripped to shred by others on the page for not riding within my limits etc.

What I want to know is, was i in the wrong? Or was it ok of me to point this out to fellow riders?
As someone that has done zero trail building myself I can see their side of things. It's kind of a put your money where your mouth is type situation. I will never ever ever ever tell someone who is out there building that they are doing it wrong, or "you should do this or that....." if I'm not gonna pick up a shovel I don't think I've got the right to tell em what to do so I understand their reaction.

Basically I said that the berms are dangerous and perhaps should be re-worked.
Dude seriously????? Put up a post warning folks yes. Saying essentially "they are dangerous and some else aside from me needs to fix em" would piss me off too. Now that may not be the intent of your message but you gotta remember how shit can come across and that's how I read that. I'm guessing they did too.

In reply I got ripped to shred by others on the page for not riding within my limits etc.
Fuck them. Only you know if that's the case or not.

I'm not trying to flame you further mate but I can see where these guys are coming from even if they botched the job.
 

ducky1988

Likes Dirt
As someone that has done zero trail building myself I can see their side of things. It's kind of a put your money where your mouth is type situation. I will never ever ever ever tell someone who is out there building that they are doing it wrong, or "you should do this or that....." if I'm not gonna pick up a shovel I don't think I've got the right to tell em what to do so I understand their reaction.


Dude seriously????? Put up a post warning folks yes. Saying essentially "they are dangerous and some else aside from me needs to fix em" would piss me off too. Now that may not be the intent of your message but you gotta remember how shit can come across and that's how I read that. I'm guessing they did too.


Fuck them. Only you know if that's the case or not.

I'm not trying to flame you further mate but I can see where these guys are coming from even if they botched the job.
Yeah I can see where you are coming from. I helped get the maintenance group started but had to bail because I had too much other stuff on.

I just think that if you are going to do something do it properly
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Disagree with SPG.

Whilst I agree that everyone should pitch in on the trails, I even more strongly think that if you're going to build trails build them so they work. I've been involved with building trails and the people designing them put really stupid and dangerous corners i them. When I suggested that there should be a little more thought in them the response was that I shouldn't try and ride faster than the trails permitted.

I don't understand why you would build trails that needlessly constrain potential. I get pissed when people then point at me and try and say shit like "don't ride outside of your capabilities", or "don't try and ride faster than the trail permits....., (now that I've built a shit trail)".

It's just a way of saying "I've built a shit trail and won't take responsibility for it".
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
I just think it's one of those things not to worry about, just take it with a grain a salt. Trail builders trying to do their best, not easy getting people to trail building sessions. We have this thing here on the local trails where a lot of people rail the berms high and knock the tips off because they are very thin. Same thing as we have very dusty dry soil and you end losing half the berm in some spots. If I do a fast run down a trail, I normally do a pre-ride and check the trail out. I don't complain to anybody, I just slow down and negotiate around the problem. You end up knowing all the problem areas after a while anyway and just wash off speed in case it's really bad.
 

spoozbucket

Likes Dirt
If it has been built by a professional mob and some muppet tries to make it easier I see no problem with going in with a shovel and removing the shit work, I've done it before.

Sadly, where I am the legit trail builders do the shit work and the only trails with any character are the illegal ones.
 

John U

MTB Precision
One persons trash is another persons treasure. Maybe the best way to deal with it is to meet with them at the trail, shovel in hand and give your input then. If you can't do that you might have put up with it.
 

No Skid Marks

Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
I'm with Jonny and Spoooozzzz.
However, was the berm finished. Did it need to not be ridden til it got rain or something, in short, did you use your brain? I get pissed when unfinished trail work(obviously unfinished) gets modded or demolished creating tons more work.
If it wrecked a corner you could ride faster and have more fun on, then I'd tell them to piss it off or make it better so you can go faster, if they don't, then yeah, cut sick and remove it yourself. I'd even tell them you are maybe.
It's really hard to say. Lots of people don't have vision, lots of people have different ideas and ideals. I nearly whacked a rude bitch on the head with a shovel and made a jump out of her when she winged that I'd made a table top she could roll over and she was riding up an obvious decent trail, that was made for descending. and the table top was actually easier to ride than the few bumps that were there. People want to play with dirt, people want to hear their own voices, it's human nature, do what ya gotta do but. Show us a pic of the corner if you can be bothered.
People come, people go. See if it evolves into working is probably best. They'll move on in a month or two and you can remove it then, when they're interests and work is more forgotten.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
So over the winter some people at my local trail network built up some berms to help them get through of camber corners.
While they were building I mentioned that they were probably left flat for a reason by the professional trail builders that established the trails.
I proceeded to inform them that the dirt in the area turns to a fine dust in summer and they need to put a sufficient amount of dirt there to keep them sustainable.

They fired up at me and said if I was so "hardcore" and "pro", I should be there helping them. I said I would be if I didn't work 6 days a weeks as it is.

Fast forward to today, I was riding along at pace, it was dusty and I was riding well within my limits. Next minute I enter one of the new berms and bang, I hit the deck. After checking for wet spots and lumps, I turn around to see half the berm gone and a whole bunch of rocks in its place.
After inspection I noticed the berm has been built up with rocks and a thin layer of dirt placed over the rocks to make it ride able. Now, I know this technique can be extremely effective with clay and more malleable and vicious dirt but, this dust did nothing to hold the structure together.

After I come home and clean my now shredded arm and ribs, I leave a festive message on the local Facebook group. Basically I said that the berms are dangerous and perhaps should be re-worked. In reply I got ripped to shred by others on the page for not riding within my limits etc.

What I want to know is, was i in the wrong? Or was it ok of me to point this out to fellow riders?
Sounds like a bit of a muppet show. My berms are almost always filled with shit...lots of it, whatever I can find to reduce the amount of dirt I need to lift. But there is always a nice thick layer of mud on top. I like my berms between the knee and waist, so fuck digging that much dirt!

When people do shitty lazy work they need to hear it. If it's shit...and not part of the original trail, rip it out (if they arent the original build team). If they want a shitty trail for noobs...let them build a fresh one. I personally have a strong disrespect for people who "steal" a trail I've built.
 

No Skid Marks

Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
Sounds like a bit of a muppet show. My berms are almost always filled with shit...lots of it, whatever I can find to reduce the amount of dirt I need to lift. But there is always a nice thick layer of mud on top. I like my berms between the knee and waist, so fuck digging that much dirt!

When people do shitty lazy work they need to hear it. If it's shit...and not part of the original trail, rip it out (if they arent the original build team). If they want a shitty trail for noobs...let them build a fresh one. I personally have a strong disrespect for people who "steal" a trail I've built.
What Poodle said. Totally agree. Got to use logs and rocks for the foundations, but yes, then loads of mud. Dirt alone will never cut it, unless really packed hard, but now with the berm skidding trend youngster wanna bees are doing, you really need set mud.
Yes there's nothing worse than someone changing the lip of a large jump you've made, total insult.
I have rebuilt old neglected tracks though, did cop a lot of friction, but from unskilled riders, seeing at least five people riding the track and having a blast every time I ride there seems to justify it though. Especially knowing I rebuilt the track with the same mindset as when it was originally built.
Had one guy complaining about a jump I was rebuilding, only to see he now uses it in his MTB skills programs and even has photos of it to promote his business. But fair enough, he couldn't see the finished product, he just saw me there changing shit.
 
Last edited:
Top