Boost hubs. Here to stay?

[Oddjob]

Whilst all those references are good examples of shit tech I'm not sure I buy the fact that all those companies consciously went fuck it, she'll be right.


Apples and oranges mate and some of the kit in the F35 leaves the 22 looking positively archaic.

You're more optimistic than me. RS knew their Boxxers wouldn't last a race run. Tim Flukes is on the record saying as much when he was the RS race tech.

Lockheed could have done a F22A, oh hold on they are! https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/air-force-wont-build-new-f-22-raptors-heres-why-27282

@johnny could say more about this but conceptually the F-35 is bogus, and the way its been rolled out has every project management error ever. The Russian S400 missile system and Australia's Wedgetails can detect F35s so their supposed stealth benefit evaporates when faced with sophisticated low frequency radar.

We would have been better off buying Rafales and more Wedgetails for interdiction, and more Reapers for strikes.



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[Calvin27]

Press fit bottom brackets.

Yep that was a perfect example of using the consumer as a test mule by sprouting bs about stiffness while blatantly reducing the costs of production. Can't prove they said she'll be right when the stuff left the factory, but at least they tried to fix it by saying 'chuck some loctite in there - she'll be right'.

Boost qr would be another one - lets make a wider stiffer standard but oh no we need something cheaper so lets just make it qr again. Can't find boost qr wheels? She'll be right.

Giant overdrive 2 is another classic - I mean who the heck actually complains about top headset stiffness? Cannondale also had the 1.5" top and bottom. We don't have any stems in supply in case your bike fit needs adjustment but she'll be right. I don't think supply of OD2 stems ever even happened lol.

When boost first came out lots of bikes had boost rear ends but fork supply was a bit shit. As a result lots of bike manufacturers simply shipped boost rear end bikes with regular spacing front ends. Classic case of she'll be right.

 

[Nambra]

I'm the ultimate weight weenie but from an engineering perpective its possible make a lighter and stiffer part in a larger diameter than a smaller diameter particularly when using alu or carbon fibre. If you built a dedicated 20mm XC fork it could be just as light aa a 15mm fork. I think my reba 20mm lowers are within 10g of the 15mm. The boost lowers have actually put on more weight...

That would be SRAM's answer to the 'why?' question regarding the 28.99mm DUB axle - chasing a stiffer, lighter axle than the 24mm, but supposedly can't seal it properly at the already established 30mm diameter.

Back on topic, and reading @EsPeGe's links - there is sense in the logic behind boost to preserve the spoke bracing angle with larger wheel diameters, although as has been said, a greater number of spokes, larger hub flanges and wider rims could also achieve increased stiffness as well. If I understood what I read correctly, the 20 x 110 front axle standard still had hub flange spacing and brake rotor alignment the same as 100mm axle spacing. Going 'boost' based on 20 x 110 would then give you 2 different 20 x 110 fork lowers, one catering for the +5mm further outboard brake rotor. Although, that's sort of what we have with 15mm no-boost / boost forks now anyway, so it probably shouldn't have been an issue for 20mm either.

 

[Mr Crudley]

Mr Crudley, I wonder what % of the mtb market consists of frame buyers that build up with parts vs complete bike buyers?
I reckon the majority buy complete bikes hence why the industry doesn’t care about changing standards..

I think so too. It seems to be going that way IMHO. I always liked build a bike from scratch but it usually ended up a being an expensive exercise.

 

[EsPeGe]

....... F-35 is bogus, and the way its been rolled out has every project management error ever. The Russian S400 missile system and Australia's Wedgetails can detect F35s so their supposed stealth benefit evaporates when faced with sophisticated low frequency radar.

Go back and check the history of the F16, pretty much everything you've said (apart from stealth) was said about that and it's turned out to be the most successful 6th Gen aircraft produced maybe even in history given it's longevity, variants and number of operators. All that said I agree the F35 isn't looking good and I was also in the "its an expensive turd" camp given it's shithouse range and limited load capability. Then add the fact that second you want to hang a couple of 2000lbers on the thing it's stealth is completely gone anyway. As I said earlier after talking with a few of the guys that are flying them (guys that went to the states to pick em up and will train the guys here) they reckon it's going to be good. That could just be the fact they've got a shiney new toy but I can't say.

We would have been better off buying Rafales,

Super hornets for the win!!!!! Better range, better load, easier to maintain and given our experience with Mirages in the past......


Sorry, off topic I know. So, boost hubs here to stay????

 

[EsPeGe]

I think so too. It seems to be going that way IMHO. I always liked build a bike from scratch but it usually ended up a being an expensive exercise.

Same here I prefer to research and then build my own bikes and yep always ends up a bit more expensive but that's also because I pimp my rigs out with builds that you couldn't buy anyway.

 

[Calvin27]

That would be SRAM's answer to the 'why?' question regarding the 28.99mm DUB axle

Man you just blew my mind. I really thought that was a skit, but DB is real lol!

 

[Warp]

The end of 1 1/8 steerer forks...suddenly you need a new fork, new frame, new headset, new wheel, new drive, new crank, and on and on...may as well get a whole new bike.

Press fit bottom brackets.

I may sound like a broken record, but this exactly happened to me.
I finally got a decent bike (Nicolai) and next year all standards go fubar. Thru-axles, tapered, 27.5, you name it.
I got high and dry with a beautiful frame that you can't strap the best parts on because the best stuff is made in a different standard.

Enter boost... Again I can't use the wheels I was using if I wanted a new frame. It meant new bike to me.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

When boost first came out lots of bikes had boost rear ends but fork supply was a bit shit. As a result lots of bike manufacturers simply shipped boost rear end bikes with regular spacing front ends. Classic case of she'll be right.

What!? they actually did this to consumers? I'd be pissed if I had mixed standards... good luck buying an off the shelf wheel set at a decent / sensible price.

Enter boost... Again I can't use the wheels I was using if I wanted a new frame. It meant new bike to me.

I just built some new wheels for my first boost frame and fork and decided to use none boost bubs with boost adaptors - builds for a better wheel, a lot less dish in the rear. Less dish = more equal spoke tension between sides, boost does not seem to solve this, it only makes the spokes more angled, not more even.

Some wheel guru on here is about to tell me I am an idiot no doubt!

 

[Mr Crudley]

I'm not sure where you get this impression mate. A cursory google search came up with the following : -

https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/fragment/mountain-bike-australia-announces-membership-growth

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-08/mountain-bike-boom-a-boon-for-country-towns/9153572

https://www.outdooraustralia.com/articles/Mountain-biking-05831

All from the last few years, these articles would indicate completely the opposite. Christ, I was at Thredbo early in the new year and the number of people out riding bikes was massive and certainly bigger than when I was there last year in my opinion.

I would agree with you for MTB tourism and commuting via MTB close to the city which is big. I understand where you are coming from though. You can do both on new and old bikes but not my point and I thought this thread was more focused on rubbery standards.

The demise of the LBS and consolidation of both online shops and manufacturers personally not what I see as a growth mode but more a contraction and rationalisation of the MTB market and not growing a bigger MTB pie. Large shareholder based companies are more risk adverse. Now we have a handful of working suspensions systems there isn't much point doing a rework but refine existing ideas further, so little push to innovate and churn existing product instead. I haven't been to an LBS that seemed too overjoyed about business over the past few years.

I don't see as many kids riding around now either. I think partly due to controlling helicopter mum's and preferring other forms of fun. MTB tourism could help to grow the pie and a good thing overall.

The growth of e-bikes is another one and I think will definitely have a big impact in a few years as buyers for $4k-$5k mid spec bikes get to think about an alternative that is faster and more flexible that just having pedals. Great for the casual rider and being left in a dust uphill by an e-bike, which has happened to me a few times now, makes you wonder where it will be a few years. If all of your riding buddies get one then do you want to the last one to roll up at each stop everytime?

It isn't hard to turn up stuff with similar points of view. These are US but the points apply.

https://redkiteprayer.com/2015/08/where-have-all-the-bike-shops-gone/
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/ind...ats-next-bike-industry-look-past#.XDKG0FUzYdU
https://www.bikebiz.com/community/emtbs-to-exterminate-mtbs

There is always going to be strong market for the devoted enthusiast but I think the casual rider's view and ongoing spend is very different. Things will also evolve but navel gazing at multiple axle standards that aren't significantly better than the other one is a stupid waste of time.

 

[Mr Crudley]

The end of 1 1/8 steerer forks...suddenly you need a new fork, new frame, new headset, new wheel, new drive, new crank, and on and on...may as well get a whole new bike.

Press fit bottom brackets.

Well atleast they stopped at tapered forks and didn't make tapered plus+.

Saying that, making thicker steerer tubes sort of negate any need for it now. My old 36 steerer is much more beefy than the 32's and the marketing propaganda has d00dz getting big air on it with an untapered 1 1/8" steerer.

Now with the dominance of CF then it would also make sense to standardise or atleast agree on one seatpost size now.
I can't see a good reason why it should be anything else now that traditional tubing sizes no longer should apply.

 

[Calvin27]

What!? they actually did this to consumers? I'd be pissed if I had mixed standards... good luck buying an off the shelf wheel set at a decent / sensible price.

Yep, sure did. You had to have a keen eye to notice - many simply did not. A bit of clever marketing with 'boost frame' but no boost fork lol. 100x15 also had the same supply issues with forks, but to a lesser extent because the upgrades happened at the fork end first and it was relatively common at the time to find 100x15 /135qr wheelset packages.

 

[Oddjob]

built some new wheels for my first boost frame and fork and decided to use none boost bubs with boost adaptors - builds for a better wheel, a lot less dish in the rear. Less dish = more equal spoke tension between sides, boost does not seem to solve this, it only makes the spokes more angled, not more even.

Some wheel guru on here is about to tell me I am an idiot no doubt!

+1 this is the way to go. Unless your frame maker is too clever and makes an offset rear to allow no dish boost wheels (Liteville).



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[Mr Crudley]

I rekon it's because they chase high end sales over frequent riders. You can see the same thing on high end road bikes where permitted. This is bad for the regular rider but great for the type that frequently drop big coin upgrading their top of the line trek year on year. What does this mean? We end up like wind surfing.

The high end market must have a much healthier margin overall. How much would a $10k uber actually cost to produce compared to a mid to lower end?

The toy factor is one aspect I guess where there is always someone that will spend on it. Road cycling is the new golf so cashed up old guys see quiet happy to throw $$$ to look awesome at the Sunday morning cafe.

Another interesting thing I've noted is the more extreme drops in used my prices. For example I was came across a used Norco for real cheap and wondered what was wrong with it. Turns out a lot of this model are generally cheaper than competitors. Well turns out it ran 15mm boost front and boost qr at the back. Why would you jerk each other off about stiffness then go backwards to a qr?

The used bike market is more brutal that it used to be which is saying something. Fine bikes can be had for small change now and still aren't snapped up as fast as I would have though. A 1/3 of the price of new unfortunately seems to be the guideline now matter how much pr0n. The QR does seem to go at odds with axle stiffness. I guess ease of removal of a QR wheel trumps axle stiffness said the marketing folks.

 

[EsPeGe]

I would agree with you for MTB tourism and commuting via MTB close to the city which is big. I understand where you are coming from though. You can do both on new and old bikes but not my point and I thought this thread was more focused on rubbery standards.

I'd argue that with the growth of tourism there'd be a increase in bike sales accordingly but that would be purely anecdotal.

The demise of the LBS and consolidation of both online shops and manufacturers personally not what I see as a growth mode but more a contraction and rationalisation of the MTB market and not growing a bigger MTB pie. Large shareholder based companies are more risk adverse. Now we have a handful of working suspensions systems there isn't much point doing a rework but refine existing ideas further, so little push to innovate and churn existing product instead. I haven't been to an LBS that seemed too overjoyed about business over the past few years.

I think you may be right here in regards rationalisation of the business models for sure. I'm not sure that equates to a slowing down of sales as such. From what I've read MTB is one of the fastest growing sports at the moment. I'd have to dig to fond something that reflects that but I do believe it.

I don't see as many kids riding around now either. I think partly due to controlling helicopter mum's and preferring other forms of fun. MTB tourism could help to grow the pie and a good thing overall.

It's weird as I see the opposite at the moment but that may just be the circles I ride in. I'm part of a race team that started out with 4 blokes. It's now at around 20-25 adults and now we've got about the same in groms racing with us. Again this is anecdotal.

The growth of e-bikes is another one and I think will definitely have a big impact in a few years as buyers for $4k-$5k mid spec bikes get to think about an alternative that is faster and more flexible that just having pedals. Great for the casual rider and being left in a dust uphill by an e-bike, which has happened to me a few times now, makes you wonder where it will be a few years. If all of your riding buddies get one then do you want to the last one to roll up at each stop everytime?

I see the what you say here and it will e interesting to see where it all goes in this regard.

 

[Calvin27]

From what I've read MTB is one of the fastest growing sports at the moment. I'd have to dig to fond something that reflects that but I do believe it.

I'd agree with that. And I think that is what proliferates the changing standards. Lots of old timers on RB saying they won't buy this or that whatever. But for the crossover CEO who went from golf to road biking then to mtb - they have no dog in the fight and buy whatever is on the shelf. A shift in sales towards this customer means that's where the focus goes.

 

[redbruce]

What!? they actually did this to consumers? I'd be pissed if I had mixed standards... good luck buying an off the shelf wheel set at a decent / sensible price.



I just built some new wheels for my first boost frame and fork and decided to use none boost bubs with boost adaptors - builds for a better wheel, a lot less dish in the rear. Less dish = more equal spoke tension between sides, boost does not seem to solve this, it only makes the spokes more angled, not more even.

Pretty sure some of the last Spesh Cambers (and previous Stumpy) had boost rear and non boost front.

Bill Shooks AC boost wheels ware the only ones I can find that used the extra space to balance spoke bracing angle. Everyone else just widened the flange spacing, which did change brace angle, but not by much.

 

[Boom King]

Pretty sure some of the last Spesh Cambers (and previous Stumpy) had boost rear and non boost front.

Bill Shooks AC boost wheels ware the only ones I can find that used the extra space to balance spoke bracing angle. Everyone else just widened the flange spacing, which did change brace angle, but not by much.

Has AC shut down? What a shame, hubs were awesome.

 

[rowdyflat]

Have 2 pairs of American Classic wheels love them light , stiff, seal tubeless really well but not excessively tight to get the tyre on ---not like Stans shitty rims.

 

[pink poodle]

I don't see as many kids riding around now either

Where and how you ride may have some influence on this. I see plenty of youngsters riding the various jump and fr trails around here. These are easy to access and cater to a range of skills. Entry price for the sport is a bit of a deterrent. So too is the prevalence of grumpy old men. There's some real rude old dudes around that can deliver a strong vibe of uncool.