Burners' Backyards: Veggies, Gardening, Landscape & Design

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
If anyone is after a good book recommendation, David Holmgren has released an online version of Retrosuburbia. I bought the hardcopy last year for $85 and I would happily pay $200 for it. I refer to it almost every day. Absolute wealth of knowledge about 'retrofitting suburbia' to thrive in an energy descent future. Highly recommend it if you're interested in Permaculture principles or want to decouple from the current system and don't know where to start.

 

Freediver

I can go full Karen
If you ever went to a lecture by Holmgren you would want to burn him as well. I don't think I've met many people so full of shit.

A well managed vege patch will produce way more than any permaculture system, Holmgren thinks not. He somehow believes that permaculture can feed the world. It can't, it's a hobby for hippies that are to lazy to garden.

I've only ever been to a couple of lectures in my life where I came out angry, Holmgren's was one of them.
 

fatboyonabike

Captain oblivious
Is specifically endorsing theft of others produce from their yards, and loading it into the stolen milk crates...probably Montessori kids too, learning the fine art of nicking stuff
Damn Hippies!
Agreed, That cover does not grab you and draw you in
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
If you ever went to a lecture by Holmgren you would want to burn him as well. I don't think I've met many people so full of shit.

A well managed vege patch will produce way more than any permaculture system, Holmgren thinks not. He somehow believes that permaculture can feed the world. It can't, it's a hobby for hippies that are to lazy to garden.

I've only ever been to a couple of lectures in my life where I came out angry, Holmgren's was one of them.
What was it that made you angry?
Do you believe gardening has to be hard work?
 
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Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
Is specifically endorsing theft of others produce from their yards, and loading it into the stolen milk crates...probably Montessori kids too, learning the fine art of nicking stuff
Damn Hippies!
Agreed, That cover does not grab you and draw you in
Not sure if taking the piss.. I've never heard anyone into permaculture or gardening endorse theft of produce from others.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Not sure if taking the piss.. I've never heard anyone into permaculture or gardening endorse theft of produce from others.
What about when a tree hangs over the fence or is on the street side of the fence? I love helping myself to fruit and herbs in those questionable scenarios.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
I’m also impressed that his bike has disc brakes, and the forks are not backwards.
Those bikes are very popular around here for running the kids to day care and getting groceries etc. I'd wager once you have 2 or 3 small kids loaded up on them and all the frame weight you'd need disc brakes to manage velocity. #onelesscar
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
What about when a tree hangs over the fence or is on the street side of the fence? I love helping myself to fruit and herbs in those questionable scenarios.
Same here. I'm of the idea that if it's overhanging into the road reserve its ok to take. I'd prefer to get food from a feral tree wholly in the road reserve (because I could get more from it ethically), but if I see fruit going to waste, I'll happily go and knock on someone's door and see if they're going to pick it.

There's something different about someone taking a lemon from a branch overhanging a fence, to someone coming onto your property and taking a zucchini while also damaging the plant (like I experienced a couple of weeks ago).
 

foxpuppet

Eats Squid
We also found a wood heater at a salvage yard and recently took out our huge gas heater to replace it with the wood heater. The gas heater was fantastic, but we decided we wanted to get away from fossil fuels from an ethical standpoint as much as possible, and have friends and family with farms who are happy to give us wood in exchange for helping them cut their own.
2 things to be aware of.

1. That old heater will likely be non compliant , not such a big deal overall depending on your council. But if it’s old it will usually be a high emitter and churn through more wood than a newer one. Compliance standards got tighter last year for Au, which means better than 60% efficiency and lower than 1.5g/kg emissions to be compliant. There are some heaters out there with 85% efficiency or higher and as low as 0.3g/kg emissions.
Some pre 90s heaters were as low as 40% and 6g/kg or worse.
A rough translation of efficiency is 10% increase equates to 1 tonne less wood burned per season.

2. Sourcing your own wood is great, but make sure it’s between 10-15% or lower moisture content before burning. A simple moisture meter can be had for about 50 bucks and will be invaluable to your running of the unit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Freediver

I can go full Karen
What was it that made you angry?
Do you believe gardening has to be hard work?
First up it was his attitude towards market gardeners and his belief on how they treat soil. My grandfather was a market gardener and he saw his soil as his greatest asset and would never harm it. Without market gardens we simply can not feed the population. Permaculture simply can't produce the calories per hectare that market gardens and broadacre can.
I would not want him as a neighbour, his attitude towards weeds is laughable from an environmental perspective. Advocating leaving weeds because they add to biodiversity and maybe a critter can use them is outright irresponsible. He obviously doesn't get how invasive things like blackberry and gorse are. He may well be able to control blackberry with goats on his own property but when birds shit the seeds in local bushland he doesn't see the need to clear it or feel any sense of responsibility.
Not pruning fruit trees is just stupid. Pruning allows a greater yield per hectare and makes fruit infinitely easier to pick. The idea of trees being stronger when they have branches forming arches to the ground is just plain dumb.
The lecture I went to was at a Landcare birthday celebration out at Melbourne Uni's Creswick campus, this is where they teach a lot of ag science. Lots of people walked out and he cut his question time very short.

No, gardening shouldn't be hard work, much better to work smart than hard. Use crop rotation, don't be lazy and pull your weeds before they set seed and in no time there's no more weeds sprouting. Over summer I'd get more than half my veg and probably about a quarter in winter as well as giving away a lot.. I'd spend maybe an average of a couple hours a week working on it
 
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Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
2 things to be aware of.

1. That old heater will likely be non compliant , not such a big deal overall depending on your council. But if it’s old it will usually be a high emitter and churn through more wood than a newer one. Compliance standards got tighter last year for Au, which means better than 60% efficiency and lower than 1.5g/kg emissions to be compliant. There are some heaters out there with 85% efficiency or higher and as low as 0.3g/kg emissions.
Some pre 90s heaters were as low as 40% and 6g/kg or worse.
A rough translation of efficiency is 10% increase equates to 1 tonne less wood burned per season.

2. Sourcing your own wood is great, but make sure it’s between 10-15% or lower moisture content before burning. A simple moisture meter can be had for about 50 bucks and will be invaluable to your running of the unit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thanks for the tips mate!
We needed some new bricks for the heater and our local Nectre dealer said it wasn't the current model and was 5-10 years old.

We've built a wood shed, enough for 6m^3, where we can store and cycle through wood so that it dries sufficiently. A moisture meter is a good idea and would be useful in the greenhouse too.
 

foxpuppet

Eats Squid
Thanks for the tips mate!
We needed some new bricks for the heater and our local Nectre dealer said it wasn't the current model and was 5-10 years old.

We've built a wood shed, enough for 6m^3, where we can store and cycle through wood so that it dries sufficiently. A moisture meter is a good idea and would be useful in the greenhouse too.
Nice, if it’s a Nectre then they are generally pretty good stats wise but some even the newest can have a wide variation.

What model have you got? I can get all the spares but you can also buy them direct from Nectre off their website. A full set of bricks would set you back roughly 80-100 including freight direct to you.

Shop.nectre.com.au


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
Those bikes are very popular around here for running the kids to day care and getting groceries etc. I'd wager once you have 2 or 3 small kids loaded up on them and all the frame weight you'd need disc brakes to manage velocity. #onelesscar
Yeah I wouldn't want to ride a cargo bike without disc brakes!

First up it was his attitude towards market gardeners and his belief on how they treat soil. My grandfather was a market gardener and he saw his soil as his greatest asset and would never harm it. Without market gardens we simply can not feed the population. Permaculture simply can't produce the calories per hectare that market gardens and broadacre can.
I would not want him as a neighbour, his attitude towards weeds is laughable from an environmental perspective. Advocating leaving weeds because they add to biodiversity and maybe a critter can use them is outright irresponsible. He obviously doesn't get how invasive things like blackberry and gorse are. He may well be able to control blackberry with goats on his own property but when birds shit the seeds in local bushland he doesn't see the need to clear it or feel any sense of responsibility.
Not pruning fruit trees is just stupid. Pruning allows a greater yield per hectare and makes fruit infinitely easier to pick. The idea of trees being stronger when they have branches forming arches to the ground is just plain dumb.
The lecture I went to was at a Landcare birthday celebration out at Melbourne Uni's Creswick campus, this is where they teach a lot of ag science. Lots of people walked out and he cut his question time very short.

No, gardening shouldn't be hard work, much better to work smart than hard. Use crop rotation, don't be lazy and pull your weeds before they set seed and in no time there's no more weeds sprouting. Over summer I'd get more than half my veg and probably about a quarter in winter as well as giving away a lot.. I'd spend maybe an average of a couple hours a week working on it
Yeah, I get that. I've listened to quite a few videos of him on YouTube, but never heard him speak live, and videos can always be edited.

My grandfather was an orchardist. While he certainly spent a lot with Incitec Pivot, if he were still around I wouldn't be trying to teach him how to suck eggs. He was a keen gardener and grew a lot of the family's veggies. Like everything, I think you've got to take it with a grain of salt. There are certainly some good ideas in permaculture, just as there are some crappy ideas (hadn't read about not pruning fruit trees) and some stuff that is just putting a new spin on common sense design. Overall, I think it's a good place to start and while I recommend the book, I also recommend using your brain and working things out yourself for your own situation. Personally, I've got a lot from the principles, as well as from other approaches like regenerative agriculture, holistic management, biodynamic farming, etc (My folks are cattle farmers). Despite all my reading, I'm probably not going to turn my nose up at the advice offered by my 83 year old Italian next door neighbour, who's probably never heard of permaculture or regenerative ag, yet has a 50 year old veritable food forest in his backyard, a kick-ass worm farm and a cellar the preserving version of Dan Murphy's would be proud of.

You've made me realise I might be shutting out some ideas by having permaculture in the title of this thread, so I'll change it to a simpler title that includes all varieties.

No, gardening shouldn't be hard work, much better to work smart than hard. Use crop rotation, don't be lazy and pull your weeds before they set seed and in no time there's no more weeds sprouting. Over summer I'd get more than half my veg and probably about a quarter in winter as well as giving away a lot.. I'd spend maybe an average of a couple hours a week working on it
That's awesome. This is what I aim to get to, maybe even supply all my family's vege requirements, and it's always good to give away excess. I attribute the relationships we've built with our neighbours almost 100% to our zucchini's.

Nice, if it’s a Nectre then they are generally pretty good stats wise but some even the newest can have a wide variation.

What model have you got? I can get all the spares but you can also buy them direct from Nectre off their website. A full set of bricks would set you back roughly 80-100 including freight direct to you.

Shop.nectre.com.au
I'm glad you told me that! I was quoted $165 locally for the bricks, so decided to heatproof cement the broken ones for the time being. If we ever replace them with new I'll hit you up!
It's the Nectre Inbuilt, but not the most recent. So far it's done a great job, heats the thermal mass of the brick chimney and heat radiates all night. Our house is a modest 3 bedder, windows are rubbish for efficiency, but the plantation shutters seem to be the next best thing to double glazing at the moment. I'm surprised by how much they insulate from the cold when shut.
 
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mark22

Likes Dirt
First up it was his attitude towards market gardeners and his belief on how they treat soil. My grandfather was a market gardener and he saw his soil as his greatest asset and would never harm it. Without market gardens we simply can not feed the population. Permaculture simply can't produce the calories per hectare that market gardens and broadacre can.
I would not want him as a neighbour, his attitude towards weeds is laughable from an environmental perspective. Advocating leaving weeds because they add to biodiversity and maybe a critter can use them is outright irresponsible. He obviously doesn't get how invasive things like blackberry and gorse are. He may well be able to control blackberry with goats on his own property but when birds shit the seeds in local bushland he doesn't see the need to clear it or feel any sense of responsibility.
Not pruning fruit trees is just stupid. Pruning allows a greater yield per hectare and makes fruit infinitely easier to pick. The idea of trees being stronger when they have branches forming arches to the ground is just plain dumb.
The lecture I went to was at a Landcare birthday celebration out at Melbourne Uni's Creswick campus, this is where they teach a lot of ag science. Lots of people walked out and he cut his question time very short.

No, gardening shouldn't be hard work, much better to work smart than hard. Use crop rotation, don't be lazy and pull your weeds before they set seed and in no time there's no more weeds sprouting. Over summer I'd get more than half my veg and probably about a quarter in winter as well as giving away a lot.. I'd spend maybe an average of a couple hours a week working on it
This dude sounds a bit radical for a urban type environment. Some of his idea's may have been borrowed from the likes of of (Peter Andrews) who was deemed a heretic by various government dept's in NSW and CSIRO but we are talking rural lands. And maybe the pest thing is coming from those red tipped bananas we see on the shelf which are pesticides free, where yeilds went down at first then almost back to normal? after a number of years. As the good insect's went on to control most of pesky ones.
Food for thought.
 

tobbogonist

a registered member
I'm working through an online course at the moment with David Holmgren, so far no complaints. I had cert 3 in horticulture lined up as well but the class was dropped in the area as they didnt have enough participants, will be doing an online one once the permaculture course is done. Working at bunnings is a plus, I have three horticulturists I bail up once a week with questions.

After spending 10 years in melb trying to be a stand up comedian I had a late night epiphany whilst watching a rather well known comic sit in the green room, head in his hands, then get up and do the same 5 minute joke for the 5th night in a row, absolutely smashing it, come off stage completely miserable and walked out to get to another gig. I didn't want that.. it was starting to happen. Well that and the fuck all income for 6 months of the year.
So I walked away. This year when the comedy fest was cancelled was the first one I hadn't been doing a show in for 8 years.

Now we are building a completely off grid tiny house in the back yard of our rental and searching for land to revegetate. We aim to be self sustainable in 10 years and set up a business around this, teaching others and giving me a chance to possibly get on stage again, with information instead of stories about my knob.

Who knows what will happen.. I can tell you this though designing your own house to build has been way more rewarding than making 100 drunks laugh.. Unfortunately the building has been delayed till Spring due to corona restrictions and we have struggled sourcing speciality items from overseas with the shipping delays and aus dollar dropping.

At the moment it's all focus on the garden. Three new garden beds brings us up to 8. I'm working four with what I have learnt from permaculture and four the standard way.
Our summer veges flourished with both methods and the permacuture side of things was a darn sight easier, especially when rolling it over to winter veg.
I still don't really know what i'm doing but I secretly suspect no one else does either.
 
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