Commuter training

whatever13

Likes Bikes
So I ride a cyclocross bike with slicks in to work and back 3 to 4 times a week.

The ride is fairly hilly both directions and about 14-15kms, it takes about 30-35 minutes. I don't have much time so it's my main fitness / training for the week plus a mtb ride on the weekend. I have a fairly unscientific, ride as hard as possible depending on how I'm feeling approach to the commute. This usually equates to progressively getting slower as the week goes on and I get more fatigued.

I am wondering though is this the best way to use commuting for improved performance? Would it be better to have allocated 'easy' or 'hard' rides and/or have day(s) off to recover? Should I cruise the flat sections and sprint up the hills? What do you reckon?
 

mtb101

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I commute about 100ks a week or around 5 hours (on CX or mtb) - I take a detour to take in some single track with climbs on way home, so 8k in and 20k home, 3 or 4 sessions a week.

Principle of 'specificity' is important here, so you have to include dirt and hills if mtb fitness is your aim.

The commute is the ideal interval session - however due to the high intensity of intervals you have to use a 4 week cycle of high intensity intervals - recovery, a pyramid type model.

When I first started commuting every ride was high intensity it didn't take long before I was always starting out fatigued, after a bit of reading; recovery, hydration, easy rides, adequate sleep, good nutrition etc, are just as important - need to think of things holistically I guess.

I work on a 4 week training commute cycle of:

Week 1: easy tempo type riding
Week 2: Hills, easy flat, go hard up hills, do extra climbing - don't back off!
Week 3: TT type big ring ride home
Week 4: Recovery - spin home

Try to keep it fun, ride how you feel, i.e. if tired go a bit easier, don't be too rigid with plan, best part is commuting can get you super fit due to regular exercise and specific training that you can do. All I need are long weekend rides when I'm training up for an event.
 
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wilddemon

Likes Dirt
It's too far for me to commute but I've been increasing the number of training days on spin. I did some research and apparently slow is the new fast. I now aim for 125 bpm hr for my spin sessions and after a while they have started to feel really good. My breathing and movement seems more efficient, and I perceive a higher work output for the same bpm, tho I can't measure this. The downside is longer sessions in the saddle but I'm just watching tv so I don't mind. Come the weekend my legs and lungs feel pretty good and I'm ready for intervals which for me is a ride on single track.

Seems to be working for me at the moment.
 

whatever13

Likes Bikes
mtb101 -

This is great info - the fatigue sounds familiar and the need for that multiple week recovery cycle sounds a great idea. I will definitely give this approach a crack - of course this week I've got yet another cold starting!!!

In week 2, are you going hard both directions? In week 4 is it a hard ride in the morning or easy both ways? For you I guess the ride in to work is shorter so less relevant. I'm stuck with same distance each way (well unless I make it longer than 15k). But perhaps it is good to cruise the ride in and focus on the way home as the 'training' ride those weeks?

Also, any thoughts on food before you ride in? Yes or no?
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
I think the key here is knowledge, HR isn't just a number but it is a fairly good indicator of which zone you are exercising in and therefore the energy pathways you are utilizing and improving. Each energy system has different turn around times in terms of recovery, with a good diet I couldn't see it been a issue to do low aerobic effort commutes each day but if those commutes start getting hard and move into the anaerobic zone you will get notice more fatigue and more recovery time.
what you do on your commute depends on your goals of your fitness and what results you are looking for. What you decide to do on the commute also will allocate the type and amount of rest or low intensity rides you need to do.

work out what your goals are of this commuting training, ie what type of fitness improvements are you trying to achieve.
Find out what type of workout archive's these goals and the recovery times needed for these then work these into your commute.
Remember our body is been broken down in a sense when we are working out its during rest that we build up and compensate for this break down, so diet is going to be a massive helper in keeping your energy levels not only up but keeping your body in a fast recovery state and help prevent over training.
Remember over training is not just about hours but intensity so you can over training if you are doing short but very intense workouts too often.

Top athletes can do more as they build up their training load, that's part of the reason you cant just grab a professional routine you will burn out.
If you are including high intensity workouts into the commute it is sometimes a good idea to include a down week every 4-6 weeks to just take it easy.
 

mtb101

Likes Bikes and Dirt
mtb101 -

This is great info - the fatigue sounds familiar and the need for that multiple week recovery cycle sounds a great idea. I will definitely give this approach a crack - of course this week I've got yet another cold starting!!!

In week 2, are you going hard both directions? In week 4 is it a hard ride in the morning or easy both ways? For you I guess the ride in to work is shorter so less relevant. I'm stuck with same distance each way (well unless I make it longer than 15k). But perhaps it is good to cruise the ride in and focus on the way home as the 'training' ride those weeks?

Also, any thoughts on food before you ride in? Yes or no?
my serious riding is on the way home, day is done and if you go too hard in the morning you'll cook your legs for the afternoon ride, so I am always conscious of conserving energy so I can ride to plan on way home.

On a good ride home, I can crack some strava PRs - go hard and get a quick recovery and go hard again. Occasionally there's some dude trying to crack you on the way home ...... see you later buddy.

When I was finding it hard to recover, I reckon I was spending too much in the heart rate zone below:

Zone E2. (General Aerobic Endurance) 75-84%MHR [ link ]
While this is an important zone for training in to build an increase in muscle glycogen storage, you''ll need to be careful spending time in this zone. It’s sometime referred to as “on-man’s land” or “temp riding” as you are riding too fast to build your aerobic base but too slow to develop your V02MAX and lactate threshold. The result of spending too much time in this zone is that you’ll get home feeling tired but not have really improved your fitness. Therefore this zone is not an efficient use of your training time


so lesson there is to ride Zone E1 (Aerobic Endurance) 65-74%MHR (tempo spin type) and then keep the intervals/hills/big ring Zone E3. (Anaerobic Threshold Endurance) 85-91%MHR & Zone VO2. (VO2 MAX Boosting) 92-100% MHR for hills etc, harder stuff. If you monitor your heart rate you'll soon know roughly where your HR is at.

Nutrition: yes quality breakfast, muesli, porridge, or weetbix, remember low GI. after hard sessions I use Endura Optimizer, drink water ... litre or so through day, I have an early healthy lunch as well.

one other burden as a commuter is carrying in your clothes for day, works out to 5 kgs for me (back pack), so again, keep your efforts on perspective, amazing what difference it makes without the thing on your back.
 
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driftking

Wheel size expert
MTB101
I have read about the no mans land but I don't quite understand the concept.
I understand you are at a point where you are sort of see sawing on the cusp of anaerobic and aerobic but training is not 100% one way or the other.
I means we use different energy pathways at different percentages depending on effort. By training in the 80-85 (or No mans) zone wouldn't it just develop the body in the percentages it uses as it does with every other zone?
I can't see why hitting a certain ratio of energy systems would make the body stop adapting. It would just keep adapting with a more even distribution rather than one way or the other. Even if we are not pushing the anaerobic zone we are still reaching just above the aerobic so that system is being stressed. You could say well you improve aerobic but not anaerobic so your wasting your anaerobic energy for no reason but it isn't without aerobic gain. Now my issue with that is that while you don't push anaerobic system it can still become more efficient can it not? I mean you don't need To train at aerobic peak to see improvements.

Do you have any scientific data not coaches or written articles but actually data? I'd be curious to read.
I hope MWI gets on this it's probably right up his ally.
 
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mtb101

Likes Bikes and Dirt
MTB101
I have read about the no mans land but I don't quite understand the concept.
I understand you are at a point where you are sort of see sawing on the cusp of anaerobic and aerobic but training is not 100% one way or the other.
I means we use different energy pathways at different percentages depending on effort. By training in the 80-85 (or No mans) zone wouldn't it just develop the body in the percentages it uses as it does with every other zone?
I can't see why hitting a certain ratio of energy systems would make the body stop adapting. It would just keep adapting with a more even distribution rather than one way or the other. Even if we are not pushing the anaerobic zone we are still reaching just above the aerobic so that system is being stressed. You could say well you improve aerobic but not anaerobic so your wasting your anaerobic energy for no reason but it isn't without aerobic gain. Now my issue with that is that while you don't push anaerobic system it can still become more efficient can it not? I mean you don't need To train at aerobic peak to see improvements.

Do you have any scientific data not coaches or written articles but actually data? I'd be curious to read.
I hope MWI gets on this it's probably right up his ally.
Here's how I understand it, mainly based on my experience of trying to combine commuting, training and reading Joe Friel's blog, his book and most importantly articles by Mark Fenner.

It's to do with recovery and allowing adequate time for adaption to take place. By basing your training in the 75-84%MHR zone the volume load becomes too large for recovery to take place in contrast to the fitness gained (and as a commuter we are doing this every day, so how sustainable is it?). In contrast to the much shorter but higher intensity sessions which have a greater fitness gain for less time spent.

see what you think of these fenner articles [ enduro 8 fenner ], [ enduro 9 fenner ]
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
Here's how I understand it, mainly based on my experience of trying to combine commuting, training and reading Joe Friel's blog, his book and most importantly articles by Mark Fenner.

It's to do with recovery and allowing adequate time for adaption to take place. By basing your training in the 75-84%MHR zone the volume load becomes too large for recovery to take place in contrast to the fitness gained (and as a commuter we are doing this every day, so how sustainable is it?). In contrast to the much shorter but higher intensity sessions which have a greater fitness gain for less time spent.

see what you think of these fenner articles [ enduro 8 fenner ], [ enduro 9 fenner ]
Cheers Ill check out the articles soon
So from what i gather from your post though, we do gain improvement but the improvement isn't equivalent to the time taken for recovery, ie it is the least efficient/effective way to train. Also all the online articles seem to say 80-85% not 75-84%??
 

mtb101

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Cheers Ill check out the articles soon
So from what i gather from your post though, we do gain improvement but the improvement isn't equivalent to the time taken for recovery, ie it is the least efficient/effective way to train. Also all the online articles seem to say 80-85% not 75-84%??
what about looking at it this way, training is stress on your body which will inevitably achieve adaption to be better able to cope with the stress. the recovery period is where the consolidation or adaptions take place, riding too frequently in no-man's land heart rate zone would mean that the deficit for adaptions to take place is too great - therefore over time your no-man's heart rate zone is done with fatigue so the quality of the training is compromised. compare this to the recommended upper training zones where the bang for your training buck is greater due to the quality of the training (higher intensity) and the fitness adaptions that can be gained.

guess it sounds counter-intuitive to train less but smarter and more specifically to have greater gains over the more traditional old school methods.
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
what about looking at it this way, training is stress on your body which will inevitably achieve adaption to be better able to cope with the stress. the recovery period is where the consolidation or adaptions take place, riding too frequently in no-man's land heart rate zone would mean that the deficit for adaptions to take place is too great - therefore over time your no-man's heart rate zone is done with fatigue so the quality of the training is compromised. compare this to the recommended upper training zones where the bang for your training buck is greater due to the quality of the training (higher intensity) and the fitness adaptions that can be gained.

guess it sounds counter-intuitive to train less but smarter and more specifically to have greater gains over the more traditional old school methods.
Yeah that's how I took your previous post, Just tried to consolidate it so i didn't have to write all that ^^ aha but cheers.
its definitely the reason why people over train, in general we live in a world were the more effort you put in the more you are rewarded. Fortunately though most people are starting to train smart and understand the benefits of training smart.

Do you use the karvonen method for Heart zones?
Or do you use the threshold measure, I don't know My thresholds so I use HR only

It seems that while the no mans land is not ideal I keep reading that it is still important to train in but needs to be monitored very closely?
Any information in regards to why you need to train there and the amount or time you shoudl spend in that zone?
Appreciate it
DK
 
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