Downhill training

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Nothing personal to you mywifesirrarional you do note some very important exercises but they are very basic exercises and and are only a small set of exercises that should be included with other training. it isn't specific enough and core stability is so important you can't discount it. In terms of push and pull these are not exercises but types of exercises so that is very broad. To say push pull and squats, technically a squat is a push exercise already. So in reality I don't disagree with what you said but to me it seems to lack insight or detail into riding training. I apologise if you take any offense to that.
No offense taken at all, I kept it simple and generic because bryce said he doesn't go to gym or have one close and possibly more complex exercises and explanations may have been wasted. I have previously done S&C work with a range of elite athletes including road and track cycling, not downhill admittedly.


Are you kidding? All of your ability to handle a bike comes from your hips and core.

If you have powerful legs and a weak core then you are going to lose a whole lot of energy pushing your hips backwards instead of the pedal downwards. The same goes for your upper body, you can have all the arm strength in the world but if you have a weak core then you are not going to have great control over being able to direct the bike.
Yes, but how does one develop powerful legs without also developing a strong 'core'? That's what every person who argues this misses, when you train doing anything you can't make your legs strong or upper body without also the 'core' getting strong too, after all, it supports your position while your training and adapts along with the prime movers. Unless you train like an average 20yr old male in a gym, all weight, no posture and no progression.

I'll get some time this afternoon, and I'll start a core stability thread in the off topics, as not to turn this one into a flame war. I'll thrown some evidence and my views, it's an interesting debatable topic.
 

frdlvr

Likes Dirt
It the complete package you need to become a good rider..

Core strength is a great start, but if your legs are not powerful enough you wont have anything to finish with, and if the upper body isnt strong then you wont ahve the strength to hold on and you will end up getting arm pump from over gripping.

Look at the top riders they are fit enough to ride enduro, xc, and DH...
 

brycethebomb

Likes Dirt
No offense taken at all, I kept it simple and generic because bryce said he doesn't go to gym or have one close and possibly more complex exercises and explanations may have been wasted. I have previously done S&C work with a range of elite athletes including road and track cycling, not downhill admittedly.




Yes, but how does one develop powerful legs without also developing a strong 'core'? That's what every person who argues this misses, when you train doing anything you can't make your legs strong or upper body without also the 'core' getting strong too, after all, yOuit supports your position while your training and adapts along with the prime movers. Unless you train like an average 20yr old male in a gym, all weight, no posture and no progression.

I'll get some time this afternoon, and I'll start a core stability thread in the off topics, as not to turn this one into a flame war. I'll thrown some evidence and my views, it's an interesting debatable topic.
Do you mean that you need a strong core so your workouts focus on other parts (eg. Legs) instead of working yout core aswell?
 

B.utters

Likes Dirt
Sounds good, I'm keen to hear more about it.

Consider who you are advising though, the OP obviously hasn't done much training with weights and is probably going to find it hard to complete exercises with good form because of an unstable core and imbalances around that area. To my mind a stable core should lead to a strong/powerful body, not the other way around.
 

mozz

Squid
Start boxing. Awesome cardio lots of ab work, more upper body strength and improved agility. Since i started boxing only a couple of months ago my confidence on the bike has increased heaps and push runs are alot easier too. Plus you learn to kick some ass which is pretty cool
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Sounds good, I'm keen to hear more about it.

Consider who you are advising though, the OP obviously hasn't done much training with weights and is probably going to find it hard to complete exercises with good form because of an unstable core and imbalances around that area. To my mind a stable core should lead to a strong/powerful body, not the other way around.
Chicken or the egg, Good training form leads to good stability, generally the other way around doesn't work so well.

Practicing core stability isn't going to help you perform a complex exercise with good form, you must practice that specific exercise. Load and progression should never occur until posture and form remain perfect throughout, that's a sensible and common approach. In a clinical environment I have people squatting as soon as they can stand after their stoke (very carefully).


Thrown a core stability post in the off topics forum.
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
I've subscribed to this thread because I was going to ask the same questions. I do have one that was almost touched on, which was recovery. Sorry if I hijack your thread brycethebomb, and these might be ridiculously stupid questions.

To address soreness after excercise/training:
In terms of recovery?
To give an example, any exercise I do is fantastic, but for the 48-36 hours afterward holy crap, I feel it. Sunday I was spectating at King Of Ballarat and I schlepped down those muddy stairs and then back up, only once. Monday and yesterday I could hardly walk, the fronts of my thighs were excruciatingly sore. Today it's hardly noticable. I've realised just now it's probably because I didn't stretch - that's gonna be pretty important right? - but I didn't think of the stairs being so brutal.

I started riding again a month ago in the hopes of entering KOB 2013, and while I don't get as sore as I did Sunday, I was wondering if you guys had recovery management techniques you could recommend to manage post-workout pain and get the most out of it.

Also, aside from good diet (I'm assuming!) and working out, do you guys use supplements, shakes, etc?
Shakes are only a secondary food to real food.
Two places to use shakes are after a workout with a good whey:carb ratio with water.......don't use milk while I probably won't matter much you want maximize absorption at this point. Fat will slow it down slightly and the protien in Milk is about 80casien is a slow digesting protien.

You should be eating a good meal at least 1hour after a workout anyway.

And second place I will use on is before bed which is a casien shake with water and some EFA's
Carbs limit your GH peak and also limit/Hault fat burning. So by having casien and fat before bed you get a good slow digesting source of protien while you sleep with some good fats and good slow digesting calories with no carbs. It also lets your GH peak which helps with building muscle and burning fat.

Reall food is Always best and a serve of cottage cheese will be good post bed too. I just don't like cottage cheese and low fat cheddar is too high in sat fats.


Now in terms of a good diet make sure you have good meal timing too.
A massage and stretch after should help
If you want to go as far as hydrotherapy do so I.e hot cold baths
Make sure you are getting enough good food before your rides too. A good post exercise routine should be had too. Prevent >cure
Make sure you have a good cool down just a nice slow pedal around.
Also consider a recovery ride the in the following days. Just a very light pedal to get the blood moving and shifting through the legs.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional or qualified in this area It is just a interest I have and everything I have read from multiple sources. Therefore anything you do take from my post is at your own risk and just my personal opinion.
 
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brycethebomb

Likes Dirt
this is all really helpful :) but is there any certain time frames i should be training in? would i be able to train (eg core stability) everyday and still improve? or should i do every 2nd day or 3rd etc, i have heard that the body needs to rest so that its not repairing its self when you start training again. could someone also explain the differences between core strength and core stability?

thanks everyone!
 
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Timbot

Likes Dirt
Ha ha ha ha

I'd agree with most of what's said here, other than core stability, waste of time.

If gym is your thing, a press, a pull and a squat will cover every muscle group (including the trunk muscles). Also a great way to help injury prevention and to aid faster recovery if you are hurt.

The press - great for pumping/flow on the bike and landing.
The pull - great for lifting the front. 1 Arm row also great for hand strength/endurance.
The squat - great for developing endurance in that position, which you spend most of your time when not seated.

Might have missed it, if someone has already said, ride with faster people.
If you think core stability is a waste of time than you obviously dont even know what it is.Any dickhead can have a six pack but it aint the underlying foundation for a solid body.Ignore your core stability at your our peril ,FOOL.(insert Mr T accent).
 

Timbot

Likes Dirt
Core stability

this is all really helpful :) but is there any certain time frames i should be training in? would i be able to train (eg core stability) everyday and still improve? or should i do every 2nd day or 3rd etc, i have heard that the body needs to rest so that its not repairing its self when you start training again. could someone also explain the differences between core strength and core stability?

thanks everyone!
I could explain it but im a slow typer and it would be better explained by googling "pilates".Joseph Pilates (I think thats his first name)is the guru of understanding core stability and harnessing its ability.Hope this helps.
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
Remember a six pack isn't really a foundation for core it's the unlerlyint abdominals and your transverse abdominals ie the underlying abs that are core found ration along with the back and obliques

this is all really helpful :) but is there any certain time frames i should be training in? would i be able to train (eg core stability) everyday and still improve? or should i do every 2nd day or 3rd etc, i have heard that the body needs to rest so that its not repairing its self when you start training again. could someone also explain the differences between core strength and core stability?

thanks everyone!
Your training load will be different to everyone.
The general rule is don't work out the same muscle two days In a row or if you are overly sore or fatigued.
It will depend on how your body reacts though.
For instants I am a ectomorph and very stereotypically of a hardgainner so for me doing 1full body workout a week ona split routine is all I need and at Most I would do two otherwise I will over train. In addition to this just to maintain my body weigt (which is low) I need to eat around 3000cal a day. On a full training routine I need To eat around 4500-5000 calories a day. Other body types can eat 2000 a day and still be able to gain weight and thier training calories might only be 3000cal. Diet is massive.
Other guys can get away with Doing 3 or 4fullbody workouts a week.

In terms of core all compound exercises will work your core so you can Ben get away with doing one core a week. Make sure if you do start Doing core work or weighted work the most important thin is to use correct form and by correct I mean 100%. Many people actually start training with no weight at first to get the form down right. Correct form reduces and limits the chance of injury it also ensures you are building correctly and not doing harm to the body. Correct form also gives more gains.

Make sure you have a good diet, training is 70-80%diet
When you work out we push the muscle to grow and accommodate/compensate for higher loads. Food and diet is the building blocks for these changes.
You can't build if your body has nothing to build with.

You don't make gains when you work out you make gains when you recover.

Training is stressing the body and in some cases breaking it down, during recovery is when he body compensates and gets Stronger and rebuilds itself. So not only do you need a good diet you need to eat a good diet all the time not just training days.

This leads me into the importance of recovery as recovery is where gains are made you need to make sure you are recovered before jumping back into another workout otherwise you wont be giving time to gain.
This is one way over training occurs when the body doesn't have time to recovery you just end up going down and down into a hole when the body.
Eg you work out 100% then recovery 80% then workout 100% again you are now 120% fatigued as you can see without recovery you get worse this is how people overtrain and get worse.
Now that is a very basic example.
There are things like supper compensation where you workout to the limits of over training and then take a bigger time period off. You get a super compensation. This does allow for more training then a bigger rest period for recovery. But it is very close and difficult to do this without over training. So for most it is best to work and recovery properly than repeat.

Keep workouts to 45min or less and eat clean healthy foods. Try have some good carbs and protien and some good fats yes GOOD fats. At each meal. As you are young just try eat healthy. Now it is hard for a young person but instead of eating 3 bigger meals try to eat 6 smaller meals. So whatever you eat try to divide it up more evenly over the day.
This will keep your body in a anobolic state (building state).
So meal timing should be considered to research too.
I would also consider split workouts so don't work every body part in one day instead work upper body one then lower the next. You want to balance your workouts so do some good research onto how to construct a training routine. Eg you ussually work muscles opposite of each other on the same day.

Also stretch.


Hopefully that helps some more.

DISCLAIMER: again this is just my personal opinion and I am not qualified in this area so any information you do take is at your own risk and on your own decision.
 
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driftking

Wheel size expert
The hardest part is the start, once you workout how often you can train and how much you need to eat it will be easier. The hardest part is working out if you are over training, under eating, training wrong.
 

brycethebomb

Likes Dirt
Remember a six pack isn't really a foundation for core it's the unlerlyint abdominals and your transverse abdominals ie the underlying abs that are core found ration along with the back and obliques



Your training load will be different to everyone.
The general rule is don't work out the same muscle two days In a row or if you are overly sore or fatigued.
It will depend on how your body reacts though.
For instants I am a ectomorph and very stereotypically of a hardgainner so for me doing 1full body workout a week ona split routine is all I need and at Most I would do two otherwise I will over train. In addition to this just to maintain my body weigt (which is low) I need to eat around 3000cal a day. On a full training routine I need To eat around 4500-5000 calories a day. Other body types can eat 2000 a day and still be able to gain weight and thier training calories might only be 3000cal. Diet is massive.
Other guys can get away with Doing 3 or 4fullbody workouts a week.

In terms of core all compound exercises will work your core so you can Ben get away with doing one core a week. Make sure if you do start Doing core work or weighted work the most important thin is to use correct form and by correct I mean 100%. Many people actually start training with no weight at first to get the form down right. Correct form reduces and limits the chance of injury it also ensures you are building correctly and not doing harm to the body. Correct form also gives more gains.

Make sure you have a good diet, training is 70-80%diet
When you work out we push the muscle to grow and accommodate/compensate for higher loads. Food and diet is the building blocks for these changes.
You can't build if your body has nothing to build with.

You don't make gains when you work out you make gains when you recover.

Training is stressing the body and in some cases breaking it down, during recovery is when he body compensates and gets Stronger and rebuilds itself. So not only do you need a good diet you need to eat a good diet all the time not just training days.

This leads me into the importance of recovery as recovery is where gains are made you need to make sure you are recovered before jumping back into another workout otherwise you wont be giving time to gain.
This is one way over training occurs when the body doesn't have time to recovery you just end up going down and down into a hole when the body.
Eg you work out 100% then recovery 80% then workout 100% again you are now 120% fatigued as you can see without recovery you get worse this is how people overtrain and get worse.
Now that is a very basic example.
There are things like supper compensation where you workout to the limits of over training and then take a bigger time period off. You get a super compensation. This does allow for more training then a bigger rest period for recovery. But it is very close and difficult to do this without over training. So for most it is best to work and recovery properly than repeat.

Keep workouts to 45min or less and eat clean healthy foods. Try have some good carbs and protien and some good fats yes GOOD fats. At each meal. As you are young just try eat healthy. Now it is hard for a young person but instead of eating 3 bigger meals try to eat 6 smaller meals. So whatever you eat try to divide it up more evenly over the day.
This will keep your body in a anobolic state (building state).
So meal timing should be considered to research too.
I would also consider split workouts so don't work every body part in one day instead work upper body one then lower the next. You want to balance your workouts so do some good research onto how to construct a training routine. Eg you ussually work muscles opposite of each other on the same day.

Also stretch.


Hopefully that helps some more.

DISCLAIMER: again this is just my personal opinion and I am not qualified in this area so any information you do take is at your own risk and on your own decision.
thanks so much, now i just gotta figure out a training routine! (or someone could do it for me? :p )
 
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my02

Likes Dirt
I could explain it but im a slow typer and it would be better explained by googling "pilates".Joseph Pilates (I think thats his first name)is the guru of understanding core stability and harnessing its ability.Hope this helps.
A bit like saying "Google Hillsong Church, it will give you the definitive answers to the meaning of life"
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
thanks so much, now i just gotta figure out a training routine! (or someone could do it for me? :p )
Haha that's the hard part, working it all out.
Now I will just point out that most my Information is in regards to gym workouts with muscle gains.
Obviously on the bike you can spend more than 45min.

Things to google that can help.

-basic metabolic rate
-body types- ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph (this will help you when working out how much you should train and how much you might need to eat)

-Push and pull gym routines
-2 day split routine
-3day split routine

The above is to Just check out routines to see how muscle groups are put together.

Google things like
-weights for bulking
-weights for strength
-weights for power
-weights for endurance

The above will give you the basic number of reps, sets and even amount of weight you should be look at using.

Compound and isolation exercises.
Clean gym foods
Clean eating

Lots of googling and reading ahead but it's worth it, knowledge really is power.
Make sure each thing you read a few sites and sources so for instance I read a lot of forums, but I also read a lot of medical studies and science on the subjects Long with trainers. It is a lot of reading but the more you can read on something from a number of sources is best.

DISCLAIMER: once again all information is just my own opinion and whatever you decide to use or take is all at your own Risk.
 
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brycethebomb

Likes Dirt
found out im more of a ectomorph but got a bit of mesomorph in me as well, i have found a 2 day split routine that i might give a go. (not sure if its going to be any good for downhill though)
this is it:

Day 1 – Chest, Triceps, Shoulders, Abs
Day 2 – Back, Biceps, Legs, Calves
Day 3 – Rest
Day 4 – Chest, Triceps, Shoulders, Abs
Day 5 – Back, Biceps, Legs, Calves
Day 6 – Rest
Day 7 – Rest
what do you think? do i need more core strength/stability exercises?
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
I don't think you need any more ab stuff.
It is hard to know as you haven't yet listed the exercises you will be doing.But also everyone is different and everyone will have different weaknesses and strengths that they need to work around to balance up. But generally if you are just starting you will be focusing on a good foundation so I would expect you to be doing mainly compound exercises with little if any isolation exercises. majority of compound exercises will work your core as a secondary and stabilizer muscle. When doing core work sit ups and crunches or anything that rounds the lower back isnt ideal, these exercises also are not creating stability they are teaching the abs to move rather than be stable. Ideally the plank/side plank and plank/side plank variations are the best. Also I would encourage you to make sure you are doing some rotor cuff exercises it is very crucial.
Make sure the ab stuff you are doing is deep ab muscle work. The six pack isn't really useful except for looks.

It is best to not do any exercises sitting if you can help it and if you are doing over head press's don't do them behind your neck.
make sure you do some good research into each exercise and see if they are safe or healthy for the body, there are a few out there that people use that are actually quite damaging and prone to cause injuries.

I cant see anything wrong with the two day split from what you have posted.
Next you need to figure out what exercises you will be doing and depending on your goals the percentage of weight and number of reps.
try keep all workouts to 45min and no more than 1 hour. If you find you are going over these times or getting very close to the 1hour mark consider a 3 day split.

Work the bigger muscles first then the smaller ones, it is good to switch up the routine every 6 weeks, this can be as simple as doing the exercises in different orders or moving to a new split routine, or replacing one exercise with another one. This just keeps the body guessing and actively adapting. Some people also recommend taking a full week off every 12 weeks to give the body a good rest.

When working out the types of exercises you want to balance push and pull workouts. I.e if you do two pull chest exercises do two push exercises of the chest in the same session.
Once you have worked out the routine i.e exercises, reps x sets and weights the next part is getting a clean good diet with enough clean healthy calories. This is the hardest part for me anyway.

Again knowledge is what matters here so make sure you have correct form and even if you spend a week or two with a empty bar just to get the movements down and your body used to working in that way. wither anything especially weights, it is always always better to go slower and lighter than too fast and too heavy and cause damage.

definitely check out bike james or MTB strength training solutions (same guy) he has lots of very good and free information on the sit. A lot is focus towards riding workouts but if you hit up his fb page I'm sure he will be happy to answer some question in terms of where to start with building a strong foundation.


remember that once you work all the diet and exercises out, you will still need to be constantly checking progress. you might have to adjust your diet to eat more or less or adjust your exercise routine etc. So it is a on going process. But once you do all this work at the start it makes everything much easy as most are just small tweaks in diet or routine nothing major like you are doing at the start. It generally takes at least 6 weeks before you notice results.
DISCLAIMER: once again all information is just my own opinion and whatever you decide to use or take is all at your own Risk.
 
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brycethebomb

Likes Dirt
thanks driftking, are any compound exercises useful? are there any that i shouldnt bother with?

hmm its tricky finding compound exercises that don't need weights, since i dont really have any, and cant drive yet so wont be able to get to gyms.
are really basic things like chin ups/push ups/planks and squats helpful?
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
thanks driftking, are any compound exercises useful? are there any that i shouldnt bother with?

hmm its tricky finding compound exercises that don't need weights, since i dont really have any, and cant drive yet so wont be able to get to gyms.
are really basic things like chin ups/push ups/planks and squats helpful?
forgot about the no gym thing.
google body weight exercises or body weight works outs etc.
push ups are great. one arm push ups if you get to that point. elevated push ups, different arm widths etc.
squats, single leg squats (unilateral) pistols etc are great.
planks are good and plank variations.
chin ups again good just do them in front not behind head. if you have a bar to do chin ups do over and under hand grip, you can hang a towel over the bar too and grab on that helps grip and forearm strength too.
anything you can substitute for weight can be good, sand bags, potatoes water buckets use your imagination but make sure whatever you use you still have correct form and posture.
dips are great too, between chairs on the back of chair etc.
some people do handstand exercises if that appeals to you.
if you can get like a bar and put it on two chairs sort of like a bench press and lye down on the floor under it you can pull your self up towards the bar, its like a reverse row (I forget the name of it)
if you can buy weights or even resistance bands they can help.
even a octty strap or something that can be used for resistance that is strong enough not to snap will help, secure it to something strong and do curls pulls, rows etc with it.
lunges are another good one.
squat jumps are good for explosive power and you will get pretty buggered.

for building size and strength it tends to take higher loads so weights are useful, unilaterally exercises are really good as you use one side of the body at a time it doubles the load.

use your imagination but make sure it is always safe what every you decide to use or do and just focus on correct form and eating right.

The key to body weight is variation.

DISCLAIMER: once again all information is just my own opinion and whatever you decide to use or take is all at your own Risk.
 
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