E Bike at Cross Country Endurance Event

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Some people with pretty average fitness spend $1000's trying to loose a kilo of weight to make their bike easier to pedal uphill... I can only imagine what the for 250-500w of pedalling for free would be worth.
Hey shut up, some of us fat slobs have standards you know.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
I think the cost of the bikes will mean that we shouldn't have to worry about presence on trails for now. But that won't last long
They're not as big as some people make out. I hardly see any on my local trails, normally ride more than 3 times a week and on the main trails around Brisbane.
 

mas2

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Bumped into my first ebike at gap creek on the weekend. I waited for the trail to be clear then started heading down it and out of nowhere a dude on a bike came flying up behind me (I think he came up a hill that linked on half way down and joined straight on behind me). I didnt realise he was on an ebike and felt pretty pressured by him and after a small section I awkwardly pulled off and apologised then saw him fly up the hill. He was a big dude and looked dressed to match his new bike.

I can see the appeal though to make the hills easier and less stressful particularly when it's so hot in Brissy and to be able to and get in 4-5 downhill sections vs my 1. Like motorbikes, you still do get a workout riding them.
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
There's 2 blokes that I see quite often at gap creek both older type of gents, one in his mid 40's and the other close to 60 but they hardly ever ride in the main area. They like going over the back to the lake on south boundary road and never hassle anyone. There isn't a lot of e-bikes compared to normal bikes so far, normal bikes out number them by a long shot but I do see a few randoms here and there but that's about it.

I did once run into an obese type of lad on Kombi at Samford that said he was on a pedalec and passed us at entrance at about 60ks without his legs moving then overshoots on one of the berms from the excess speed.
 

Rossm

Likes Bikes
All my edits come back to this point. There's no sportsmanship in racing an ebike in a non ebike event. Completely agree. The training and effort put in to prepare for racing should be the difference maker and if you're rocking up on an ebike to supplement your fitness for racing purposes then shame on you.
So you agree that eBikes are different to pure human powered bikes, but then rant on about how they should be treated the same as non motorised bikes everywhere - except in races. Smacks of hypocrisy! But then you have admitted to wanting to start a flame war, so not surprised.

Seems to me that trails reserved for non motorised activities should be exactly that - used for non-motorised activities. Just because the motor is "human-assist" does not stop it being motorised. Use them on trails where motorised vehicles are allowed - plenty of those around.
 

Ideate

Senior Member
So you agree that eBikes are different to pure human powered bikes, but then rant on about how they should be treated the same as non motorised bikes everywhere - except in races. Smacks of hypocrisy! But then you have admitted to wanting to start a flame war, so not surprised.
Of course I wanted to flame you no voters. It's too easy!? I still don't understand the focus on technicalities as appose to the big picture.. It has an 11-52t cassette?!! It's got gears! A car has gears! That means it's a geared-mobile, not a bike! Gears make you go faster downhill! Gears KILL PEOPLE because of extra speeds! Gears let you get up hills easier! You shouldn't be allowed to get up hills easier or faster! Gears ruin trails! Go to the GYM and get FIT instead! blah blah.. That's what you sound like.

It's simply etiquette and morals saying ebikes shouldn't be used to gain unfair advantage, not hypocrisy. I will admit there's an issue with high powered custom ebikes that are more like a motorbike but I'm not advocating for those. Let's quickly define them below..


ebike_vs_ebike.jpg


The top bridges that murky area of a bike and a motorbike and definitely interrupts the tranquillity of what real mountain biking is. Bottom is simply a first gen pedal assist that gets you up the hill and does not give you any benefit going down. What's the issue with these again? Oh.. that they're fun, that's right.


There are laws in place to regulate ebikes but I have no suggestions as of yet other than education to prevent some of the issues raised by other naysayers. I'd add that there's a lot of things that need tougher regulation that are FAR more dangerous.. such as being able to buy a 240V 10 Amp Double Powerpoint With USB ports from Bunnings to replace your regular double outlet at home. Potentially fatal in a lot of scenarios.

I'm talking about ebikes that go no faster than anyone else on the trail. They simply get you up climbs that you'd usually walk or give you the endurance to do a weekend of Epic loops. That's it. The rest is exactly the same. BUT NO, you shouldn't be allowed to do that because __INSERT EXCUSES HERE___ (my favourites are you shouldn't be allowed to have fun or you need to earn fun by having a pain:fun ratio of approximately 5:1, you should need a licence or permit and you should only be eligible if you're disabled or have a special condition lol).

At the end of the day, I'm not really fussed about people like you because you don't even know what you're talking about.. I mean seriously:

Seems to me that trails reserved for non motorised activities should be exactly that - used for non-motorised activities. Just because the motor is "human-assist" does not stop it being motorised. Use them on trails where motorised vehicles are allowed - plenty of those around.
WHY?!? What does this actually mean really..?? And how does it affect you in the slightest? I'd really like you to think about it.. then come back and elaborate on why you think legal pedal assist bikes should not be allowed on mtb tracks and trails? I'm really interested to hear why..

I couldn't help myself.. it just sounded so interchangeable.

Seems to me that marriage between man and woman should be exactly that - for men to marry women. Just because a man loves a man or a woman loves a woman does not stop it being wrong. Be homosexual in dirty gay clubs where you're allowed - plenty of those around.


Edit: I'd be pissed if I was racing on my rollerblades and you zipped past me on your rocket-blades.
 
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schred

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I think I'm getting your argument now. Something like e-bikes should be allowed to use the trails because they are fun and the existing laws don't really say they can't be used, so any objections are unfounded.

And I can see you keep asking the naysayers for more reasons why they are personally concerned, despite the laundry lists provided.

But mate, look at the above, I think it's you who should self reflect a bit on your own argument, you can drive a truck through the holes in that, especially given how early days the whole issue is.

There's a bunch of stakeholders and interests involved, and there's a few large groups with potentially a lot at stake, and they are aren't the ebikers. IMO it's you who should be doing the justifying and persuading because if the engagement is done right you might find the outcome isn't as favorable/as easily won to ebikers as you are carrying on about.
 

Ideate

Senior Member
I think I'm getting your argument now. Something like e-bikes should be allowed to use the trails because they are fun and the existing laws don't really say they can't be used, so any objections are unfounded.
No, that's the excuse you're using lol.. They are fun but apparently you're not allowed to have fun climbing. It's suppose to be hard work and painful! And there is laws that say you can't use them (over 250w or with a throttle).. soooooo. What are you talking about? Yes, objections for people riding a bike up a hill with some assistance is unfounded for the moment. What of it?

And I can see you keep asking the naysayers for more reasons why they are personally concerned, despite the laundry lists provided.
But mate, look at the above, I think it's you who should self reflect a bit on your own argument, you can drive a truck through the holes in that, especially given how early days the whole issue is.

There's a bunch of stakeholders and interests involved, and there's a few large groups with potentially a lot at stake, and they are aren't the ebikers.
What holes? I am a stakeholder from both sides so what are you talking about again? I don't want MORE reasons, I want rational reasons. Is that too much to ask for?



Edit: I don't enjoy Cross Country.. maybe that's why I like ebikes so much? But I'd never race one to gain unfair advantage.
 
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The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
I must be the only non-e-biker here who can actually see Ideate's point.....

I don't ride one, and have no great desire to ride one, because I'm that kind of XC endurance nutbag who rides to push my physical boundaries, and assisted pedalling is basically mechanical doping in that context.

BUT...!

I ride with guys who are on e-bikes on a regular basis, and the only difference is they make me ride harder up hills to try to push them above the 25 km/h assist cutout..... :heh: On the descents they go faster than me because they're the kind of rider who's faster than me on descents anyway. A vaguely skilled rider who appreciates the limits of traction will realise very quickly that there are many times where an e-bike will be no faster than a well-ridden "manual" bike, but it can make *that rider* faster than they would be without assistance.

So I have no problem sharing the trails with legal e-bikes, and that extends even to racing. To a point..... That's because at the average 6 or whatever-hour XC Enduro, there are several categories beyond the hard-arsed solo nutbags like me, including teams & "half-arsed" three-hour riders, so you're really not actually racing everyone else on the track, just sharing the track with them. So having e-bikes on a race course at the same time really doesn't bother me. However, like the teams or the three-hours, e-bikes must absolutely be a separate category. They're not racing on an even footing against unassisted riders, so not separating them for scoring is basically like racing against East Germans in the 70's.....
 

Refreshinglygood

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Some people with pretty average fitness spend $1000's trying to loose a kilo of weight to make their bike easier to pedal uphill... I can only imagine what the for 250-500w of pedalling for free would be worth.
Agree. But these people have the $$$ and also have the bike to do the mods too. Spending $8000 on a bike is not as common as we think $3000 - $5000 sure. I think we have 3 years or so until $5000 ebikes are easy to get. That's when access will become a discussion
 

Rossm

Likes Bikes
I couldn't help myself.. it just sounded so interchangeable.
Maaaate ... You've got NO idea how to construct a logical argument.

Yes - Fully agree - "marriage between man and woman should be exactly that - for men to marry women" and marriage between a man and a man should be exactly that - for men to marry men; and marriage between a woman and a woman should be exactly that - for women to marry women. So what? And what's that got to do with anything here? Seriously - you have way too much time on your hands, maybe you should use it to get out and ride & get fit, then you wouldn't need to use your motor bike. (Yes - its got a motor, its a bike - it's a motor-bike.)

So - here are some reasons for you that eMTBs should kept off tracks that are not designated for motorised vehicles.

  1. Because these are motorised, they are attracting attention of regulators. (Yes - its happening. Councils, National Parks bodies, State land departments ARE starting to look at this) This will lead to more regulation and potential closure of areas currently available to us. And because of this misguided approach that eMTBs are the same as mountain bikes, the regulations and closures will affect all MTB riders. Not a great outcome.
  2. Speed & skill. Human powered bikes take effort to get uphill & that tends to be a limiting factor in the down hill. As people build strength & fitness they tend to also build skills. eMTBs allow those with little skill to ride more & faster, but not safer - either for them or others on the trails. Even for skilled riders, the extra speed is going to cause complaints from other trail users in areas where bikes share trails with hikers & possibly horses, and lead to bans for all bikes.
  3. Removing the essence of mountain biking. Before these motor bikes arrived, mountain biking was all about the challenge. Part of that challenge being the technical challenge of the trails, the speed, and getting down the mountain as fast as possible, and also the challenge of getting up the mountain, before you go down, and the challenge of pushing your body.
  4. Safety. We will see people with poor fitness & a very heavy machine run out of battery in wilderness areas, who will find it difficult to extricate themselves.
  5. Thin end of the wedge. The distinction is pretty clear - if its got a motor its motorised. But these attempts at classifying eMTB as human powered muddies that. "But they are limited to 250w and 25km/hr of assist" you say. And next year it will be 500w and 50km/hr and then 1000w and 80km/hr (I can already buy an eBike in Australia that is 1000w & does 80km/hr). Trails for human powered activities are not compatible with the speeds & safety issues introduced by motorised vehicles. Human power inherently limits current speeds for MTB activity. Motors do not.


If you're not fit and want to bomb down hills, there are already options. Go to Buller or Thredbo & use the lifts. Or go somewhere with a shuttle service. If you want to ride your motorised bike to gain longer distance, use the trails already available for motorised vehicles. But keep your motor bike off the trails designated for human powered activity.

Sadly though, these things will be here to stay. The manufacturers will want to sell high margin high value products, and will cater to laziness and sloth in order to attract more people to buy them. All hail the mighty dollar.
 

Ideate

Senior Member
Maaaate ... You've got NO idea how to construct a logical argument.
...
Wow. This is why I'm here! I've got all the time in the world to roll my eyes at your senseless definitions and scaremongering. I'll give you merit though for putting your arguments in dot point. It'll make it easier for me address them after I celebrate this useless excuse for a public holiday.


Edit: do you think people were outraged when dildos became electronic too?
 
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halfstroke

Likes Bikes
Maaaate ... You've got NO idea how to construct a logical argument.

Yes - Fully agree - "marriage between man and woman should be exactly that - for men to marry women" and marriage between a man and a man should be exactly that - for men to marry men; and marriage between a woman and a woman should be exactly that - for women to marry women. So what? And what's that got to do with anything here? Seriously - you have way too much time on your hands, maybe you should use it to get out and ride & get fit, then you wouldn't need to use your motor bike. (Yes - its got a motor, its a bike - it's a motor-bike.)

So - here are some reasons for you that eMTBs should kept off tracks that are not designated for motorised vehicles.

  1. Because these are motorised, they are attracting attention of regulators. (Yes - its happening. Councils, National Parks bodies, State land departments ARE starting to look at this) This will lead to more regulation and potential closure of areas currently available to us. And because of this misguided approach that eMTBs are the same as mountain bikes, the regulations and closures will affect all MTB riders. Not a great outcome.
    Seems like it will only affect XC riders and what do you mean by closure? They take down the map at the traihead. There are more unsanctioned riding areas then sanctioned.
  2. Speed & skill. Human powered bikes take effort to get uphill & that tends to be a limiting factor in the down hill. As people build strength & fitness they tend to also build skills. eMTBs allow those with little skill to ride more & faster, but not safer - either for them or others on the trails. Even for skilled riders, the extra speed is going to cause complaints from other trail users in areas where bikes share trails with hikers & possibly horses, and lead to bans for all bikes.
    Gravity also allows people to ride faster, Do you have a problem with that?
  3. Removing the essence of mountain biking. Before these motor bikes arrived, mountain biking was all about the challenge. Part of that challenge being the technical challenge of the trails, the speed, and getting down the mountain as fast as possible, and also the challenge of getting up the mountain, before you go down, and the challenge of pushing your body.
    I don't know about you but i ride MTB because it's fun, Doing jumps and skidz are especially fun. Maybe you should stick to road riding.
  4. Safety. We will see people with poor fitness & a very heavy machine run out of battery in wilderness areas, who will find it difficult to extricate themselves.
    This point is silly, you could apply the same argument to a moto that has run out of fuel or a bogged 4WD.
  5. Thin end of the wedge. The distinction is pretty clear - if its got a motor its motorised. But these attempts at classifying eMTB as human powered muddies that. "But they are limited to 250w and 25km/hr of assist" you say. And next year it will be 500w and 50km/hr and then 1000w and 80km/hr (I can already buy an eBike in Australia that is 1000w & does 80km/hr). Trails for human powered activities are not compatible with the speeds & safety issues introduced by motorised vehicles. Human power inherently limits current speeds for MTB activity. Motors do not.
    But as of right now they are limited to 250w at 26km/hr.


If you're not fit and want to bomb down hills, there are already options. Go to Buller or Thredbo & use the lifts. Or go somewhere with a shuttle service. Or get an ebike. If you want to ride your motorised bike to gain longer distance, use the trails already available for motorised vehicles. But keep your motor bike off the trails designated for human powered activity.

Sadly though, these things will be here to stay. The manufacturers will want to sell high margin high value products, and will cater to laziness and sloth in order to attract more people to buy them. All hail the mighty dollar.

Braaaaaaaap.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Agree. But these people have the $$$ and also have the bike to do the mods too. Spending $8000 on a bike is not as common as we think $3000 - $5000 sure. I think we have 3 years or so until $5000 ebikes are easy to get. That's when access will become a discussion
There are plenty of inexpensive e-bike options.

Wow. This is why I'm here! I've got all the time in the world to roll my eyes at your senseless definitions and scaremongering. I'll give you merit though for putting your arguments in dot point. It'll make it easier for me address them after I celebrate this useless excuse for a public holiday.


Edit: do you think people were outraged when dildos became electronic too?
Your mum wasn't!

The big issue is that e-bikes break down social norms. These travesties will be the end of shuttles with the crew...look back now fondly at all those times someone hung their bare arse out of the shuttle pig's window, or threw an opened water bottle at someone nearby, laid out a fat smokey/dusty donut at the shared part of the dirt road offending all those families having a picnic, and not to forget blasting the slamming beats early morning at the pick up and drop off spots.

Braaaaaaaap.
I Braaaaaaaaped your mum. She's a bit shallow, so I could only deliver the half stroke. Oh and stop skidding on the trails. It causes unnecessary erosion.
 

wkkie

It's Not Easy Being Green
Ebike to me = electronic motor pedal assist bike, you have to pedal!

Other pos with throttle and motor, electronic or petrol and no pedaling to kick in the motor = motorbike!

No motorbikes on trails period. And people should be charged for riding motorbikes unregistered and unlicensed.

Pedal assist ebike on designated mountain bike trail, no worries.
 

99_FGT

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Unfortunately it is people with half a brain that get those kits, and they make the generalisation about e bike riders very easy...
 

bikeyoulongtime

Likes Dirt
calm your knickers down people; and go and read this again: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html

Pedal activated motorbikes sure are fun, but so is... well.., anything with a few magic mushrooms in your belly. I've written heaps of essays about pedal powered motorbikes here, but really it's a question of dogma these days and not of practicality. Just to flog a dead horse :deadhorse:, there are bazillions of km of state forest trails for motorised vehicles that are even fun to explore on human powered vehicles. Drive your electric motorbike out there and shred like a beast. If you can't find something fun, smash some shrooms and then, well, you'll be right. Just prepare to camp out there the night ;) This keeps hard fought human powered trail access human powered and accessible, and motorthings where they belong with other motorthings. And yep, if my best mate suddenly got MS or became paraplegic or got arthritis and needed to use an e-mtb I'd happily go ride moto trails with them under my own steam. If I got MS or arthritis or ?? I'd do exactly that, just grab my ebike and head for the state forests.

Seems pretty easy and low fuss to me.

Back OT - motorised bikes should run races on a separate day. The end. grab another beer, post some more crap. It's been a fun read ;)
 
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