eBikes - what's the current perspective

[Dark Knight]

Hi All

My first post on this awesome site and thought I'd just canvas some opinion on this topic.

Full disclosure - I own a turn key cross country eBike (BH Neo Jumper) and plan on building from scratch another. I've done my fair share of trails and (very) light downhill riding through my life but as the age went past 40 and the weight well over triple figures couldn't quite keep it up (or did the weight exceed the triple figures because I didn't keep it up...?). Since acquiring the bike I've been out and about loads more and have cut 10kgs from the human engine...and am back commuting every day.

From my point of view there are actually some really good quality all purpose eMTBs being released that really open the trails (and roads) up for a whole new demographic of more elderly/infirmed people. With the ageing of the population I can only see this as being a good thing...

Couldn't see much discussion on this topic hereabouts so thought I'd kick it off.

What's the general consensus?

 

[foxpuppet]

Thats a funky looking rig you got (just looked it up)

How much power does it have?

I've got nothing against the tech per se, but I can see where misuse of higher powered versions of these bikes are going to cause issues. If it gets people out and riding that's great.... But if it gets people out tearing up trails like its a moto then that's not ok.

 

[Duane]

I ride mtb and off road motorcycles, have even raced the latter in my stupid years. I class ebikes as a "motor" powered bike, be it electric not petrol, and should be treated as such. Riden in places where "motor" bikes are permitted and I think they are great, I even could think of times and places where I'd like one such as where noise is an issue. Would I like to be sharing my local dedicated mtb singletrack with them, no thankyou.

 

[Dark Knight]

Thats a funky looking rig you got (just looked it up)

How much power does it have?

I've got nothing against the tech per se, but I can see where misuse of higher powered versions of these bikes are going to cause issues. If it gets people out and riding that's great.... But if it gets people out tearing up trails like its a moto then that's not ok.

G'day foxpuppet

Power as per european/australian limitations - 250W continuous (with maybe up to 500W peaks) and must be pedalling for power to engage (so no throttle) - works on a troque sensor which senses the pressure applied to the pedals and just 'boosts' your power. Essentially, makes you feel like you've got bionic legs! I'd offer you a spin but unfortunately it's a bit of a trek to Perth (must update my location on my profile) from where you are...

There are a lot of good mid drives coming to market (mine's a rear hub drive - unsprung weight in rear wheel issue) which put the power through the gears which when combined with human input can pretty muck climb anything...

Agreed re: power (Stealth Bikes and the like), need to be careful where these are allowed in terms of trails etc. however these also have a place as light weight, enviromentally friendly dirt bike replacements which should be given access and opportunities that all off road vehciles are provided.

Thanks for the response.

 

[WarbyD]

Yeah... I like the idea of the tech in general, but I certainly don't like the idea of them on trails. As a commuter - yup, absolutely. I am actually contemplating converting my 29" hardtail commuter (googling about it as we speak..) but IMO, if you want to get out on the trails, it's pedal power all the way - if your fitness is an issue then all the more reason to be pedal powered and improve the situation.

I tip the scales at a touch over 120kg at the moment, and the clydes section of MTBR has guys upwards of 150kg getting out on the trails under their own power. Weight is no excuse!

That BH Neo Jumper is a pretty cool looking rig, but it doesn't belong on the trails IMO.

 

[WarbyD]

Just noticed that you're in Perth.. Out of interest, where are you riding this? I'd be interested in seeing it in action out of curiosity...

 

[mtb101]

I ride bikes to keep fit and healthy - human powered that is.!

cycling aren't that hard mate. health benefits are enormous. you're emission free on a bike.

think ebikes are ok for elderly and disabled (not counting obesity as disabled mind you) - although there's an issue with no insurance i.e. if you hit a pedestrian the pedestrian has no cover as they would with a registered vehicle, likewise if you hit a cyclist on the trail, cyclist has no cover if permanently injured where a registered motorcycle would.

if you aren't old and/or aren't disabled what are you doing on our trails with a motorbike?

if you ride the thing where I ride ... ride fast as I would be happy to test if it floats.

 

[Dark Knight]

I ride mtb and off road motorcycles, have even raced the latter in my stupid years. I class ebikes as a "motor" powered bike, be it electric not petrol, and should be treated as such. Riden in places where "motor" bikes are permitted and I think they are great, I even could think of times and places where I'd like one such as where noise is an issue. Would I like to be sharing my local dedicated mtb singletrack with them, no thankyou.

Hey Duane

As in the response to foxpuppet - I think there are 2 distinct types of ebikes. You have the severely power limited 'light' weight versions (with things like the Bosch mid drive) such as Haibike etc. These are limited to 250W continuous power (i.e. would about double the input of a fit human) and often weigh in less than 20kg (yes - heavy for a bike but not unacceptably so...). You then have the 'dirt bike' replacement of which Australian (melbourne) company Stealth bikes is a great example.

In my humble (and obviously biased as an advocate of these) opinion, the former should (and are currently to my knowledge) be allowed access to standard MTB trails and the latter should have the same access as an off raod licensed dirt bike.

The high powered ebikes are actually in no mans land at the moment as they don't fit into any of the 'standard' registration categories...yet isn't it preferable to have lightweight, silent yet powerful dirt bikes rather than screaming 2 stroke gassers out on the moto tracks...? More environmentally friendly as well...

Keep riding!

 

[John U]

Nicolai are doing some fairly mad shit with Electric bikes for downhill. I've only seen the pics on their site. They look heavy but very interesting. I'd be very interested to know how they go (not that I'd be able to afford one). I haven't seen any footage of them in use.

 

[Aussie_Ryder]

I'm just waiting for the day some bell end on an Ebike comes screaming up behind me on a trail yelling "STRAVA RUN!!!".

For commuting purposes I can see a point but for trail riding I think they are a bit of a joke.

 

[Dark Knight]

Yeah... I like the idea of the tech in general, but I certainly don't like the idea of them on trails. As a commuter - yup, absolutely. I am actually contemplating converting my 29" hardtail commuter (googling about it as we speak..) but IMO, if you want to get out on the trails, it's pedal power all the way - if your fitness is an issue then all the more reason to be pedal powered and improve the situation.

I tip the scales at a touch over 120kg at the moment, and the clydes section of MTBR has guys upwards of 150kg getting out on the trails under their own power. Weight is no excuse!

That BH Neo Jumper is a pretty cool looking rig, but it doesn't belong on the trails IMO.

Definitely weight isn't an excuse...and many people are/will be/can be motivated to do things regardless of weight (add in age, bad knees, back injuries etc.)....I guess the point I was trying to make was that there are potentially many people who would jump on a bike if there was some assistance for them, and if this get's them off there butt and out there, it's great. If it gets them out of a car and commuting by bike to work, even better. With the current bikes, you have to pedal and the motor only partially assists - you're still getting a level excercise. You can also reduce the motor assistance or disable it entirely and get more excercise than on a normal bike (they are heavier after all).

Being a human powered only rider for many years, I turned my nose up at electric bikes (they have been around a longish time) and openly ridiculed them - then I took one for a spin... This is part of the issue restricting ebikes - there is quite a negative sentiment from 'traditional' cyclists...which I don't necessarily believe is called for. Everyone however is entitled to an opinion...

With regards to where I currently ride - at the moment she's mainly my commuting steed. Bought full suspension with the intent of hitting up some trails but have been way to busy with rest of life to get any decent trails riding done. Some of the comments here are also leading me to believe that it might not be the best idea...

Good luck converting the hard tail into a commuter. Plenty of bolt on kits around for that.

 

[Duane]

I think if you have the strength and ability to ride technical singletrack you also posses the ability to pedal, or posses the potential. If you are disabled enough not to be able to stand up, jump, cross logs, negotiate rock gardens, then by all means, buy an ebike and stick to rail trails and fireroads. If you are able to ride the more challenging terrain, then I say use the human engine.
If the low powered ebikes just boost the riders input, then the rider needs to learn how to boost their own power.
I have a relative who is an amputee that managed to power themself on 2 wheels until their condition worsened and they lost the other leg, perhaps that's the market for electric mtbs?
I think ebikes have a place, commuting and leisure rides with the family on flat trails for those that cannot or would not get out there otherwise but genuine mountain bike riding requires enough ability to negotiate the terrain, if you can do this, then I believe you can pedal too.

 

[Dark Knight]

I ride bikes to keep fit and healthy - human powered that is.!

cycling aren't that hard mate. health benefits are enormous. you're emission free on a bike.

think ebikes are ok for elderly and disabled (not counting obesity as disabled mind you) - although there's an issue with no insurance i.e. if you hit a pedestrian the pedestrian has no cover as they would with a registered vehicle, likewise if you hit a cyclist on the trail, cyclist has no cover if permanently injured where a registered motorcycle would.

if you aren't old and/or aren't disabled what are you doing on our trails with a motorbike?

if you ride the thing where I ride ... ride fast as I would be happy to test if it floats.

Hi mtb

Agree with riding to keep fit and healthy, and that you're emission free. Also agree cycling aint that hard for most of us (have done pleeennnty of it in my life) however as the body ages, it get's harder. Having some assistance helps with niggling injuries and may also allow you to stay out and about longer. Even if it encourages someone who could ride a normal bike into actually getting out there on an ebike, I consider that a win.

With regards to insurance issue - legal (under 250W continous) ebikes are viewed as the same as standard human powered bikes in the eyes of the law, and are limited to 25kmh. I ride my normal mountain bikes to work quicker than that (hills and wind aside) and the lycras are tearing up the shared paths at 40+. If either of them were to connect with a pedestrian what's the coverage...?

The legally limited bikes are far from motorbikes in shape, size, power, fitout etc. and cannot be remotely compared to them.

With regards to the last comment - not really necessary is it? Let's have a reasonable and civilised discussion without resorting to empty threats.

Keep safe

 

[John U]

http://www.nicolai.net/156-1-ION+16+E-BOXX.html

 

[Dark Knight]

http://www.nicolai.net/156-1-ION+16+E-BOXX.html

The Nicolai is a good german frame - not cheap at all though (price does include the 19% german VAT) although at least it comes with a Cane Creek DB coil shock....few hundred bucks on it's own.

When initiating this thread I actually:
1. Didn't expect to get as much of a response as has already and
2. Kind of expected to get flamed a wee bit more...so glad that hasn't happened.

If I may sum up, I've been on both sides of the fence now - an anti ebike advocate and now a pro ebike advocate. I've experienced both and apreciate both.
I'd encourage anyone taking the time to post to also take the time to do some quick youtube lookups. Haibike Enduro has a few vids out, as I'm sure would Nicolai. Also check out the Conway Erider (although this isn't australian legal). Have a look at the bikes and how they perform.

Anyone acting like a toe rag on the trails deserves to be pillared regardless of what the steed is. To single someone out for the steed itself though isn't, in my view, cricket.

John - love you're catchphrase - More than 1 side to every story - kind of sums this up to a degree...

 

[Dark Knight]

I think if you have the strength and ability to ride technical singletrack you also posses the ability to pedal, or posses the potential. If you are disabled enough not to be able to stand up, jump, cross logs, negotiate rock gardens, then by all means, buy an ebike and stick to rail trails and fireroads. If you are able to ride the more challenging terrain, then I say use the human engine.
If the low powered ebikes just boost the riders input, then the rider needs to learn how to boost their own power.
I have a relative who is an amputee that managed to power themself on 2 wheels until their condition worsened and they lost the other leg, perhaps that's the market for electric mtbs?
I think ebikes have a place, commuting and leisure rides with the family on flat trails for those that cannot or would not get out there otherwise but genuine mountain bike riding requires enough ability to negotiate the terrain, if you can do this, then I believe you can pedal too.

Let me proposition it in a different way. We all have limitations to our fitness - even Lance A doped up to the eyeballs was limited to how much he could push and how long he could stay in the saddle...albeit that limit was far in excess of any other human. What if, by having some limited assistance, you could spend double, triple or quadruple the time in the saddle and have that much more fun? After a few ks of trail riding, the average fitness person is pretty tuckered out. Now imagine they can have the joys of the trails for many more kilometres, still getting excercise, still in the great outdoors and still on a machine that weighs little more than a standard XC bike and rider combined...

Another example of advantageous use, the way I currently commute for instance is that in the morning I have the motor fully helping, I push reasonably hard to reach the speed limiter but don't exceed and arrive at work energised but not sweating like a pig. On the way home, either turn the motor off or spend the entire ride trying to be above the speed limiter (i.e. I'm doing 100% of the work) - due to the bike being a little heavier this works out to be a greater workout than a 'normal' bike, especially when combined with the 2.25 inch knobbly rolling resistance, keeping the bike over 30 is quite the challenge.

I'm not setting out to convince anyone, however I am hoping to encourage some further viewing/reading/understanding of what an ebike can and does represent.

 

[cramhobart]

I'm all for anything that gets people moving (partially) under their own power- even more so if it gets them out of cars. The potential for misuse on single track terrifies me. How far down the e-bike path do you think we will get before someone brings out an aftermarket software patch that doubles top speed- which in the wrong hands is deadly- as for downhill /am electric bikes- it's just another moto and should be subject to the same access restrictions.

 

[Dark Knight]

I'm all for anything that gets people moving (partially) under their own power- even more so if it gets them out of cars. The potential for misuse on single track terrifies me. How far down the e-bike path do you think we will get before someone brings out an aftermarket software patch that doubles top speed- which in the wrong hands is deadly- as for downhill /am electric bikes- it's just another moto and should be subject to the same access restrictions.

That one is a toughie. However, nationally the maximum speed limit is 110 IIRC (NT no longer has those limitless roads) however even a normal family sedan and easily exceed 160...and we sell cars that go 300+. Obviously the upper limits to these machines are not catered for in a 'legal' environment (short of taking it on a track) however these vehicles are still readily available. We don't institute a regulation capping car speeds to say 125...(I am not in favour of this by the way - just mentioned for illustrative purposes)? Perhaps not the best analogy...but I think the point stands nonetheless.

 

[Duane]

No matter how much those that use them try to argue the benefits, ebikes still remain to me like electric shopping carts, some people genuinely need them but most are just too fat and lazy to use their legs.

In a society that has an obesity epidemic, if ebikes get those fat and lazy sods off their arses then I guess it's a good thing.

 

[Aussie_Ryder]

No matter how much those that use them try to argue the benefits, ebikes still remain to me like electric shopping carts, some people genuinely need them but most are just too fat and lazy to use their legs.

Absolutely spot on.