eBikes - what's the current perspective

[floody]

Apologies for the lack of clarity in my original post, the 8-10kg I referenced above refers to the total added weight of all the e components (it can actually be less) - the motor is 2-3kg, batteries typically 4-6kg and maybe a kg of wiring, controller etc. - pretty much like the bike Nico is riding in the YouTube video Ivan posted in 133 - check it out if you get the time...only a couple of minutes. I guess what I was trying to say before was that you definitely do pay a weight and cost penalty - and as ridethelightning stated previously, for pure lightness and nimbleness a quality MTB can't be beat.

As you can see, batteries are where the weights at - this applies for any e vehicle from tesla cars to rc planes. The motors comparatively are super light and super efficient. The technology is always improving but is far from competing with fossil fuels in energy density. If they even get remotely close though, it'll be pretty much bye bye to fossil fuels for energy and the ICE as a power source.

A 10kg motor is a completely different kettle of fish, as per what I wrote in that post you quoted from:



Some of these beasts produce peak power of 12kw/16hp - do those types of bikes belong on technical single track - fark no. However in this day and age of global warming fears (justified or not - a completely separate debate), peak oil concerns, pollution fears and general environmental conciousness - I like the fact I can have an electrically powered, nimble small 'motorbike' that I can cycle/train it to a designated off-road area, kick arse for an hour or two and then cycle/train it home all for the cost of a couple of kws of energy kindly supplied by the solar array that's on my roof. The alternative is to break out the ute, load on the dirt bike, fill it with million year old dead animals and then fill everyone's ears with the screaming joy of high revving engines. Nothing against those that do this (and it's there tracks that I'd be sharing) just know what alternative I'd go for.

However the place for a debate on those bikes is on a dirt bike forum which is why I tried to delineate between the two early in the thread.

Hope this clarifies things and enjoy the trails.

Its all just semantics, 10kg worth of e-gear is a 10kg motor to me. I mean a 3kg motor is just dead weight without the battery and wiring.

As for using million year old dead animals, well until there is major change that's what you're doing regardless, its just a different kind of 'fuel' in a different kind of tank.

For all intents and purposes you're riding a moped.

 

[ridethelightning]

Its all just semantics, 10kg worth of e-gear is a 10kg motor to me. I mean a 3kg motor is just dead weight without the battery and wiring.

As for using million year old dead animals, well until there is major change that's what you're doing regardless, its just a different kind of 'fuel' in a different kind of tank.

For all intents and purposes you're riding a moped.

that does seem a whisker harsh.....

cant expect people to get things to be perfect overnight.

but you gotta give people some slack while they try to no?

 

[99_FGT]

pollution fears and general environmental conciousness - I like the fact I can have an electrically powered, nimble small 'motorbike' that I can cycle/train it to a designated off-road area, kick arse for an hour or two and then cycle/train it home all for the cost of a couple of kws of energy kindly supplied by the solar array that's on my roof.

Yep, solar. How much lead do we dump in landfill from CRT TV's?
That is solar ( not the lead, but the quantity) in 20 years.
You live in Perth, the gas capital...

 

[Dark Knight]

Yep, solar. How much lead do we dump in landfill from CRT TV's?
That is solar ( not the lead, but the quantity) in 20 years.
You live in Perth, the gas capital...

I beg to differ: http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

I certainly won't be ripping off the panels on my roof after 20 years when they could be upward of 90% of original 'ability'... May add a few more on though, plenty of real estate still available.
Yep - we're the gas capital...but sadly as a nation still have the most expensive energy in the world...

But that's a whole other debate.

 

[MARKL]

IMO e-bikes are just really crappy, under powered motor bikes and should be treated as such. I'm sure over time they will improve but they will still be a bike with a motor, full stop end of story.

 

[floody]

that does seem a whisker harsh.....

In my book a low powered motorcycle with pedals is a moped, its just no longer the 1970s and instead of 49cc of smelly 2 stroke it's got a battery and sounds like an RC car on steroids.

 

[Hyena]

Or you could do shuttles with a bunch of mates....way more fun and social. Only issue is the smell 6 dudes leave in the shuttle pig.

Curious that you think shuttles are a better solution than ebikes.
It seems at least some of the audience here has a beef that ebike riders aren't pedalling hard enough, yet you advocate doing no work at all to get to the top of a hill then get a free ride back down with gravity at your back ??
Any of the fast downhill riders I've seen seem to do more damage to trails than an ebike would too.
Ebike riding is actually alot like downhill, it's just you don't actually need to find a mountain and the throttle turns any terrain into that same fun you get on a downhill track. Only if you want to though, unlike downhill with an ebike you control the speed, so you can pedal along like normal or pick up the speed if you so desire.
As for being social, ebike riding in groups is just as social as mtb riding.

Was I the only one who thought the riding in Hyena's video was irresponsible? Skidding through corners, going off track and I'm assuming a bit of wheel spinning every time he started moving from a standstill

That night ride vid is not an example of how I normally ride! It was a balls out, pushing it to the max type thing and I was deliberately showing off for that reason. I've seen numerous DH vids showing much more chewing of dirt than I'd ever do an on ebike, plowing through berms hard under brakes etc. And by the same token you don't watch some extreme redbull mountain biking video and say that's how ever bike rider hits up their local trails.

I've been thinking about how I ride for the last few days since reading this thread and when I was out on the weekend I paid particular attention to how I was riding and the impact I was having on the trails. I'm convinced I'm not doing any more harm to the trails than a regular MTB and my time is largely divided between higher speed runs on wide fire trails (I don't think anyone has an issue with this ??) and on the tighter more technical single track I'm probably not going any faster than a skilled normal mtb rider anyway. And the only time I was spinning the wheels was pushing the bike up over rocks or over logs under throttle and this isn't causing any erosion or damage anyway.



Oh and re:tyres, I'm running 24x2.5s on the front and 24x3.0s on my stealth fighter and 26x2.5s on my other bike. So pretty standard mtb stuff. The torque on a powerful ebike is kind of interesting, it doesn't wheel spin like a dirt bike (unless you're really trying to) and at worst you might get a slight 'chirp' off the line. They're more prone to popping wheelies with too much throttle rather than wheel spinning.

 

[pink poodle]

Curious that you think shuttles are a better solution than ebikes.
It seems at least some of the audience here has a beef that ebike riders aren't pedalling hard enough, yet you advocate doing no work at all to get to the top of a hill then get a free ride back down with gravity at your back ??
Any of the fast downhill riders I've seen seem to do more damage to trails than an ebike would too.
Ebike riding is actually alot like downhill, it's just you don't actually need to find a mountain and the throttle turns any terrain into that same fun you get on a downhill track. Only if you want to though, unlike downhill with an ebike you control the speed, so you can pedal along like normal or pick up the speed if you so desire.

i dont give a shit how hard you pedal, that is your boyfriends concern. i care only slightly more about your fuel emissions in charging your motor.

my issue is you are using a motorised vehicle on a trail that is designated for bicycle riders. insert all safety issues and erosion issues that go with that (if you cant do the maths and realise that your ebike is heavier than a bicylce, then i am unable to assist with your intelligence issue). it's that simple. as i said before, at least when a dirt bike rider is coming the wrong way up a track i can hear their approach.

im sure that when you squeeze your throttle, you have very little control over the speed.....but probably find a strange combination of fun and shame in the hasty act.

 

[pink poodle]

Oh and re:tyres, I'm running 24x2.5s on the front and 24x3.0s on my stealth fighter and 26x2.5s on my other bike. So pretty standard mtb stuff. The torque on a powerful ebike is kind of interesting, it doesn't wheel spin like a dirt bike (unless you're really trying to) and at worst you might get a slight 'chirp' off the line. They're more prone to popping wheelies with too much throttle rather than wheel spinning.

time to switch up and go 29.

 

[Hyena]

i care only slightly more about your fuel emissions in charging your motor.

At worst my bike costs 8c to charge, that's for 1kw hr offpeak. But typically it costs literally nothing to charge, I have large 2.1kw solar array at home which feeds back into the grid and also a smaller bank of lead acid batteries that I can use to charge the bike at any time. These are recycled truck batteries that still hold a good charge but are replaced at regular service intervals for reliability. For my purposes they're perfect, and I've saved them ending up in land fill, or what ever they do to recycle/safely destroy batteries.

my issue is you are using a motorised vehicle on a trail that is designated for bicycle riders. insert all safety issues and erosion issues that go with that (if you cant do the maths and realise that your ebike is heavier than a bicylce, then i am unable to assist with your intelligence issue).

MY intelligence issue ? Again you keep bringing up things that have already been addressed and largely dismissed.
Again, the weight difference is negligible and as already discussed there's no increased erosion over a standard mountain bike unless you deliberately do skids, and the same can be said for anyone doing skids on a normal mountain bike. As we keep coming back to what it comes down to is rider attitude.
I never ride faster than I can stop, for my own safety and for that of anyone I might come across head on. I'm running 9" rotors and quad piston calipers so I can pull up pretty quick. And when I do encounter someone head on I stop and wait for anyone else in their group to pass before setting off again. Because I have the power to set off again instantly it's no issue for me to stop and give way and I find I'm actually more courteous to oncoming riders than alot of other regular mtb riders I've come across.

at least when a dirt bike rider is coming the wrong way up a track i can hear their approach.

I don't know how fast you're riding (or how fast you think I might be riding) that you think we're going to have these sudden head on collisions. I've had plenty of regular cyclists come flying at me on flat single track and there's no notice of their approach either. You get the guys who are fit and familiar with flat trails that really belt along, faster than I'd be out casually riding even under power (again most of the time speed is limited by the trail not my super evil high powered pretend motorcycle)

im sure that when you squeeze your throttle, you have very little control over the speed

Are you kidding? There's a heap of precision if you know how to ride and aren't a noob that just grabs a handful of throttle. Throttles are actually better than pedal assist sensors IMO as you can control exactly how much power you want to supplement your pedalling, vs a pedal sensor that just matches a boost with what ever your pedalling input is.
Or was that an just attempt at further juvenile comments ?

 

[pink poodle]

I don't know which futurama character said it (I think one of the robots from the days of our lives type show), but..."I'm filled with a large number of powerful emotions."

So much so I can't decide which emoticon/s to use! The fishing one? The laughing my arse off because you don't get it? The face palm because you missed my fairly blatent premature ejaculation joke? Or the go have a cry because I care not for your ideas? Make all the claims you want. They are no more than claims.

And for the record I don't fly on single track. I chug.

 

[floody]

It seems at least some of the audience here has a beef that ebike riders aren't pedalling hard enough

Not me, my beef is that you're riding mountain bike trails on an electric moped.

 

[crank1979]

Any of the fast downhill riders I've seen seem to do more damage to trails than an ebike would too.
Ebike riding is actually alot like downhill, it's just you don't actually need to find a mountain and the throttle turns any terrain into that same fun you get on a downhill track. Only if you want to though, unlike downhill with an ebike you control the speed, so you can pedal along like normal or pick up the speed if you so desire.
As for being social, ebike riding in groups is just as social as mtb riding.

I've been thinking about how I ride for the last few days since reading this thread and when I was out on the weekend I paid particular attention to how I was riding and the impact I was having on the trails. I'm convinced I'm not doing any more harm to the trails than a regular MTB and my time is largely divided between higher speed runs on wide fire trails (I don't think anyone has an issue with this ??) and on the tighter more technical single track I'm probably not going any faster than a skilled normal mtb rider anyway. And the only time I was spinning the wheels was pushing the bike up over rocks or over logs under throttle and this isn't causing any erosion or damage anyway.

The DH comparison has been made a few times but I don't think it's making a very good case for ebikes on regular mtb trails. Most DH trails will have significantly more, and more regular maintenance performed on it than your average mtb trail. DH trails are generally a lot shorter as well, so the damage is contained to a smaller area and then repaired and maintained more frequently. Doing 'no more damage than a DH rider' over a longer mtb trail is still more damage than a regular mtb rider over that same trail.

I can't see how a heavier, more powerful bike is not doing any more damage on a trail compared to a lighter, less powerful standard mtber riding the same trail. I'm quite happy for someone to explain how this works.

I'd suggest that spinning wheels going over rocks and logs is possibly causing premature erosion at the leading and trailing edges of the rocks and logs compared to a regular mtb.

 

[T-Rex]

Any of the fast downhill riders I've seen seem to do more damage to trails than an ebike would too.

Go and stand on a DH track when it's pissing down rain....... water and gravity does the bulk of the damage.

 

[quin66]

im sure that when you squeeze your throttle, you have very little control over the speed.....but probably find a strange combination of fun and shame in the hasty act.

Haha think every bloke on here is guilty of that one. Very good.

 

[Hyena]

you missed my fairly blatent premature ejaculation

Sorry, I guess I'm not familiar with that one.

I care not for your ideas? Make all the claims you want.

This is my fault for thinking there might be more reasonable discussion to be had here. You can take your fingers out of your ears now and stop saying lalalala

Not me, my beef is that you're riding mountain bike trails on an electric moped.

OK, so you just plain don't like it because it has an electric motor. Got it.

Doing 'no more damage than a DH rider' over a longer mtb trail is still more damage than a regular mtb rider over that same trail.

I shift significantly less dirt than your average downhiller would do on a spirited ride, but I guess it depends on the trail. Unless it's been raining and I hit a muddy patch 90% of where I ride is hard packed dirt and rock. Unless there's the odd patch of soft sand or fine loose gravel I barely even leave tyre tracks behind. It's not like when a moto gets on the trail and you can see exactly where they've been

I can't see how a heavier, more powerful bike is not doing any more damage on a trail compared to a lighter, less powerful standard mtber riding the same trail. I'm quite happy for someone to explain how this works.

If you go for a ride with a mate who's say 15kg heavier that you and he's cranking away hard and throwing his bike around through the twists and bends, is he doing more damage than you ? If he rolls over the same patch of trail as you doing 45 km/hr where you're only going 30 is he ruining it ? I guess it's hard for you guys to comprehend having not experienced it but they really do have a minimal impact on the track surface if you dont ride like a stooge. You want me to mount up my gopro facing backwards next time I go out to show the sort of impact I have on the trail surface ?

I'd suggest that spinning wheels going over rocks and logs is possibly causing premature erosion at the leading and trailing edges of the rocks and logs compared to a regular mtb.

That's a bit of a stretch - perhaps if i went out every weekend for the rest of my natural riding life I could slightly change the landscape...

Go and stand on a DH track when it's pissing down rain....... water and gravity does the bulk of the damage.

Sounds like we need to ban rain not ebikes!


OK sounds like we're done here and there's pretty much nothing else to be said.
Thanks to those who've contributed sensible points to the discussion. On the occasions I find myself on "mountain bike" trails I'll continue to ride them responsibly.
And on the off chance any of you here have been building the tracks and bridges around woronora heights that I've recently found and been enjoying PM me when you'll next be out working and I'll swing by with a few beers and help lay down some timber.

 

[pistonbroke]

Your argument is shit. I have run dirt bike events with 250 riders. There were quite a few sections through national parks where you couldn't tell a single bike had been through.
Does this mean I can send them through the local mtb trail? No it doesn't. It's against the law. Just the same as your electric motorcycle.

 

[ChopSticks]

And on the off chance any of you here have been building the tracks and bridges around woronora heights that I've recently found and been enjoying PM me

is this track you mention near/in Prince Edward Park?

I saw this video:
http://vimeo.com/83427922

and from looking at the roads he crossed and the fences he passes, along with street view I'm guessing it was shot inside Prince edward park/ near the cemetery?
God the place looks awesome and techy... would an ebike be able to handle that?


Re: ebikes... have watched this thread from the very start... and really didn't expect so much hate for it...
having said that I personally dont want a guy on an ebike smashing up a hill faster than me.

the question is.... why do those ebiker's choose to mtb? do you want the challenge of riding over rocks/logs etc to be easier? or are you riding for distance/commuting/fitness?
what I'm getting at is.... isnt it pointless to mtb on an ebike, as it detracts from the whole experience? Wouldn't it be more satisfying smashing up that hill you couldn't before (whether it be fitness, skill, bad day, sickness, tyres, luck, etc)

Even if you 'cheat' your way to the top of the hill.... would you really enjoy the reward of the downhill on a 20kg~ bike?
(yes im aware DH's do shuttles etc)

I do however see this as a really appealing mode of transport for those who commute on the roads.

... but I see no place for them on the trails.
Not because of the damage aspect of trails (haven't ridden one, nor know enough about trails erosion caused by ebike to make that call).
But because, I believe MTB'ing should be for pure fun !! and I can't see how one can really experience MTB'ing without working (climbing) for the reward (downhill).


sort like sex?
yes you're still fucking, but with a condom....... just doesn't feel right does it?

 

[pink poodle]

sort like sex?
yes you're still fucking, but with a condom....... just doesn't feel right does it?

One day you will know what that's like chops.

 

[mtb101]

I followed a guy last night on a converted mtb ebike - , bottom line do you want to share single track with motorcycles? do you want to share bike lanes with motorcycles and remember ebikes have no reg so if they hit you at speed there's no third party cover unlike registered vehicles.

we cycle to keep fit and healthy, enjoy the outdoors, our sport treads lightly on the environment and unless you have hope hubs, pretty silently. its the sweetest way to move through the bush. my attitude to any motorcycle whether its some kind of shithouse e-bike or a registered motorcycle is they shouldn't be in areas designated for cycling (that's human powered), walking, running etc.

as I said if you're obese - cycling will get the weight off in no time, harden up and have a go, otherwise find places for motorcycles to ride and go there.