eBikes - what's the current perspective

[Nautonier]

Aside from the opinions regarding whether motorised MTBs on MTB trails is acceptable or not, I think the technology has a long way to go to give the user a MTB-like experience while riding down the hill. Riding something that heavy down your favourite local descent is going to feel a whole lot different to your ~14kg 6" trail bike. Sure, the weights are not that much more than a heavyish DH bike, but not everyone wants to bomb down a run on that much bike.

Supposing that these things could be made much lighter, they would be an environmentally preferred option to car shuttles.

 

[danncam]

Parks approved ebike pilot? Wtf

So the specialised ride day at Lysterfield includes e-(motor) bikes. They told me LTDR and Parks approved of a "pilot".
I think it's a slippery slope just because tech evolves so quickly. There is no way a parks official can know how powerful and fast an e-motor-bike is, and whether it is "assist" only or not.
If you jump into a "pilot" with a company like specialised the game is rigged already.

I got a reply on Instagram putting up the "it helps people who can't pedal because of a disability argument" ; cool then, only people with a disability proven by medical exam, like taking a blind dog on a plane.

It's a bit horrifying how quick these ebikes will get faster and more powerful. Let them go ride at the Seaford dirt bike centre or on dirt bike trails.

 

[FatMuz]

So the specialised ride day at Lysterfield includes e-(motor) bikes. They told me LTDR and Parks approved of a "pilot".
I think it's a slippery slope just because tech evolves so quickly. There is no way a parks official can know how powerful and fast an e-motor-bike is, and whether it is "assist" only or not.
If you jump into a "pilot" with a company like specialised the game is rigged already.

I got a reply on Instagram putting up the "it helps people who can't pedal because of a disability argument" ; cool then, only people with a disability proven by medical exam, like taking a blind dog on a plane.

It's a bit horrifying how quick these ebikes will get faster and more powerful. Let them go ride at the Seaford dirt bike centre or on dirt bike trails.

"The sky is falling. The sky is falling"

Go to the ride day and have a ride on one. Then come back and tell us how 'horrifying' it was.

 

[link1896]

Absolute bullshit

"The S-Works Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie is a trail bike with all of the hallmarks that our mountain bikes are known for. This means that you get a roomy top tube for an easy fit, ultra-short chainstays for nimble handling, and a low bottom bracket that makes the bike feel glued to the trail. Then comes the efficient and powerful Turbo technology, integrating a battery and motor into the M5 frame in a new way. The exclusive, custom-tuned motor smoothly and quietly puts out up to 530 watts of additional power to the pedals to make climbing the steepest of trails nearly effortless, and the output is fully adjustable to conserve energy."

 

[Paulie_AU]

I don't understand why people should need a disability form to ride these things in the bush. Most punters won't do anything particularly amazing with them as I dont believe they will have the skills to hit everything at 40kmh. If everyone suddenly becomes shredding machines the first and simple response will be to ban them from forests. Dirtbikes and 4wds are already banned from most of the locations dedicated mtb trails exist, they will just make the definition include any powered vehicle.

The potential for them to be banned is why I wouldn't get one. The oh you ahould pedal to experience mtbing wank isnt a reason.

 

[Paulie_AU]

Absolute bullshit

"The S-Works Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie is a trail bike with all of the hallmarks that our mountain bikes are known for. This means that you get a roomy top tube for an easy fit, ultra-short chainstays for nimble handling, and a low bottom bracket that makes the bike feel glued to the trail. Then comes the efficient and powerful Turbo technology, integrating a battery and motor into the M5 frame in a new way. The exclusive, custom-tuned motor smoothly and quietly puts out up to 530 watts of additional power to the pedals to make climbing the steepest of trails nearly effortless, and the output is fully adjustable to conserve energy."

So in QLD that is a motorbike and must comply with Australian design rules and be registered. The only place it can be legally ridden is private property. The fine for using a unregistered vehicle on public land is pretty nasty that is what they sting the kids on dirtbikes with.

The power war shit is stupid. The only one worth buying in qld would be 250w or less. Then it also needs to cut out assistance at 25km/h which is hardly going to trash trails.

 

[Big AC]

"The sky is falling. The sky is falling"

Go to the ride day and have a ride on one. Then come back and tell us how 'horrifying' it was.

I went, and I rode for ~90 mins (Comm games, Aneurysm, Middle, Redgum, and Hug for those who know Lysty).

Thoughts:

On fire roads and flowing trails which allowed you to keep momentum up it worked ok. Anything where some pedalling finesse was required, it was poor. Descending, it was heavy and felt like it was taking me for a ride.

The power delivery is inconsistent and can cause issues. When trying to get around a tight switchback it would suddenly put in a heap of power even though my pedal strokes were smooth and regular. This led to me sometimes riding the rear brake up and around certain switchbacks as I tried to keep it “calmed down”, otherwise you’d just end up with the front end washing wide.

Any technical elements which just normally just require commitment and pedalling were a joke, you just blazed up and over them.

The top speed limiter is set too low. You’d just get up to a decent speed and the assist would cut out, leaving you to pedal a very heavy bike to get any more speed. On downhill sections this was not an issue; however, on flatter trails it felt like it detracted from the benefits of an E-bike. When you dropped below the top speed the power would kick back in, and then drop out, and then kick back in – it was somewhat annoying.

Descending: it was very stable in a straight line; however, it didn’t want to turn. The long CS and heavy weight made the front practically glued to the ground, lifting the front took some work. Oddly enough, even though the front is glued down it did unexpectedly power wheelie out of nowhere when I was climbing a rock armoured turn.

Dialling down the power assistance didn’t really make me work any harder; however, it did lessen the occurrence of unwanted power input.

Bottom line: The current crop of E-bikes are the first generation, not surprisingly they lack finesse in power delivery and timing. The geometry is compromised to fit the motor, and they are heavy. I left the demo thinking I don’t want one of these; however, in 10 years, when some more R&D has been spent, things might be different.

I had a mate with me who is new to MTB and is unfit. He almost keeled over last year when trying to climb the hill on Comm games, he breezed up it this year (he’s not fitter this year).

Absolute bullshit

"The S-Works Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie is a trail bike with all of the hallmarks that our mountain bikes are known for. This means that you get a roomy top tube for an easy fit, ultra-short chainstays for nimble handling, and a low bottom bracket that makes the bike feel glued to the trail. Then comes the efficient and powerful Turbo technology, integrating a battery and motor into the M5 frame in a new way. The exclusive, custom-tuned motor smoothly and quietly puts out up to 530 watts of additional power to the pedals to make climbing the steepest of trails nearly effortless, and the output is fully adjustable to conserve energy."

Agreed.

 

[slimjim1]

I went, and I rode for ~90 mins (Comm games, Aneurysm, Middle, Redgum, and Hug for those who know Lysty).

Thoughts:

On fire roads and flowing trails which allowed you to keep momentum up it worked ok. Anything where some pedalling finesse was required, it was poor. Descending, it was heavy and felt like it was taking me for a ride.

The power delivery is inconsistent and can cause issues. When trying to get around a tight switchback it would suddenly put in a heap of power even though my pedal strokes were smooth and regular. This led to me sometimes riding the rear brake up and around certain switchbacks as I tried to keep it “calmed down”, otherwise you’d just end up with the front end washing wide.

Any technical elements which just normally just require commitment and pedalling were a joke, you just blazed up and over them.

The top speed limiter is set too low. You’d just get up to a decent speed and the assist would cut out, leaving you to pedal a very heavy bike to get any more speed. On downhill sections this was not an issue; however, on flatter trails it felt like it detracted from the benefits of an E-bike. When you dropped below the top speed the power would kick back in, and then drop out, and then kick back in – it was somewhat annoying.

Descending: it was very stable in a straight line; however, it didn’t want to turn. The long CS and heavy weight made the front practically glued to the ground, lifting the front took some work. Oddly enough, even though the front is glued down it did unexpectedly power wheelie out of nowhere when I was climbing a rock armoured turn.

Dialling down the power assistance didn’t really make me work any harder; however, it did lessen the occurrence of unwanted power input.

Bottom line: The current crop of E-bikes are the first generation, not surprisingly they lack finesse in power delivery and timing. The geometry is compromised to fit the motor, and they are heavy. I left the demo thinking I don’t want one of these; however, in 10 years, when some more R&D has been spent, things might be different.

I had a mate with me who is new to MTB and is unfit. He almost keeled over last year when trying to climb the hill on Comm games, he breezed up it this year (he’s not fitter this year).

Cheers for the review.

I've only tried one around the streets and what you say is exactly how I thought they would ride on the trails.

 

[FatMuz]

Some good feedback Big AC... at least you gave it a try and decided they're not for you.
I've ridden a couple of different ebikes now and one of the key things I've learned is that they are not ideal on single track when in the highest assist mode. Your experience on switchbacks seems similar to this.
The only times I use the full assist mode is on steep fire road climbs.

I also agree that the current generation of ebikes need further development... future generations can only get better.

For someone in my situation however, they are a Godsend. I've been a passionate mountain biker for 15 years. I work in education where I'm fortunate enough to take kids out mountain bike riding on a regular basis. More important than all that, mountain biking is my life coping tool... it's how I deal with life, anxiety, depression and whatever else gets thrown at me. After 3 knee operations (all on right knee) in 8 years, I am finally unable to pedal to the tops of my favourite trails without immense pain and difficulty. Because of my age (50), a knee replacement is at least 7 years away. I even sold my Evil Wreckoning this month because I couldn't ride it like I wanted to anymore... that hurt...best damn bike I've ever ridden.

My ebike lets me keep doing what I love doing...riding great trails with great mates.

 

[ualf]

LDTR has no say in whether eMTBs can or cannot be ridden at Lysterfield.

Despite what some members of the LDTR committee (Industry insiders) think and say it is only Parks Victoria that has a say in the matter.

My personal view is that most of the positive endorsements for eMTBs come from industry insiders, sponsored riders or media who are beholden to the brands to sell advertising.

I keep hearing that they are fun and everyone should try them.

1. Well most crack addicts say that crack cocaine is fun and everyone should try it. Don't do it.
2. A royal commission that is currently taking place suggests that numerous members of a certain religious organisation think that being a peado is fun. Don't do it.

Something being fun does not make it right or appropriate.

I keep hearing about edge cases where someone with this or that condition would not be able to ride otherwise. Well a blind person cannot drive but can take their guide dog to a restaurant. If the edge case is why it should be ok then it would kind of follow that it is fine for me to take my dog to a restaurant with me. It isn't.

I have heard a senior PV manager once draw a comparison between mountain biking and Jet Skis. This was quite easily shot down as an argument, however once eMTBs become common place that argument could start making more sense.

All I can suggest is that everyone needs to develop their ability to think critically and not accept what vested interests and industry insiders push blindly.

It might all turn out to be a storm in a tea cup and eMTBs will be a fantastic product with a great market, however I do have issues with some large brands having undue hidden influence on grass roots volunteer organisations. If you have a strong view on this matter and want to have some influence you should show up at meetings held by your local MTB club and ask appropriate questions and have your voice heard. It wouldn't hurt to join up and balance the conversation that is pushed by the industry in their slick marketing campaign.

 

[FatMuz]

Oh great... First the sky is falling.
Now I'm being compared to a crack addicted Peado.
Talk about kick a blind man's dog while he's down.

I went for an ebike ride this arvo. Gee it was nice... didn't offend anyone... chatted to some hikers... didn't destroy any trails. Sigh...

 

[danncam]

"

Then come back and tell us how 'horrifying' it was.

Chicken little denier, I think you misread my post a little. I am saying that I am horrified at the thought of how quick the e-motor-bike tech will evolve in terms of power and speed. Even if they "limit" those things a hack will be only a Google away.

The fellow with the bung knee, maybe that qualifies as a legitimate disability to ride an e-mtb on parks land in the future.

 

[Paulie_AU]

Chicken little denier, I think you misread my post a little. I am saying that I am horrified at the thought of how quick the e-motor-bike tech will evolve in terms of power and speed. Even if they "limit" those things a hack will be only a Google away.

The fellow with the bung knee, maybe that qualifies as a legitimate disability to ride an e-mtb on parks land in the future.

If it is under 250w and cuts out at 25kmh then in qld it is a bicycle. If not it is a motorbike and not allowed under current legislation. It also must have some certification sticker (cannot recall exact one) stating that is the case.

 

[safreek]

Oh great... First the sky is falling.
Now I'm being compared to a crack addicted Peado.
Talk about kick a blind man's dog while he's down.

I went for an ebike ride this arvo. Gee it was nice... didn't offend anyone... chatted to some hikers... didn't destroy any trails. Sigh...

dont worry mate, I don't think of you as a crack addicted pedo. Its easy for people to bag things until they have health probs. good luck on getting the electroride dialled in. rock on and have fun

 

[silentbutdeadly]

So the current perspective is that there is no perspective. It's still an on or off proposition? That's a bit stupid.

 

[MarioM]

We discussed this at our all mountain round at Greenvalleys and the general consensus was that when we`re old or have an injury / disability that stops us riding then we`re all for them . Most people had ridden them and can see the merit .

For me , if it keeps us doing what we love when we are no longer able to , then I`m all for it .

 

[Paulie_AU]

We discussed this at our all mountain round at Greenvalleys and the general consensus was that when we`re old or have an injury / disability that stops us riding then we`re all for them . Most people had ridden them and can see the merit .

For me , if it keeps us doing what we love when we are no longer able to , then I`m all for it .

Sounds like a good plan. Figure I will do the same.

 

[Dozer]

The topic is very broad though, there's seemingly two kinds of E Bikes: One is the version that common brands are selling now and aren't packing too much punch that can wreck stuff and / or defeat the purpose of a climb. The other version is the moronic things that are built around a downhill bike and have enough power to do higher speeds etc. My opinion is mainly aimed at the higher speed versions, the Stealth comes to mind. I couldn't really care less about the heavy E bikes that are getting around and making climbing easy, as long as that range of bikes stays under powered and doesn't speed the climbing process up or start butchering trails than fine, no worries. If those bikes join the Stealth and the homemade jobs that fly up fire roads, around the roads of Mt Druitt, up gravity trails and along walking paths in suburbia then I'll keep swinging axes at them when they ride my trails.I have enough trouble with motorbikes (registered or not) and won't stand for giant piles of steaming E bike shit wrecking my stuff.

 

[Hyena]

Any technical elements which just normally just require commitment and pedalling were a joke, you just blazed up and over them

To the people who feel like they're going to drop dead on uphill segments like that, that's generally a good thing!
Everything else you said is spot on though - those are the problems with pedal assist ebikes. As much as everyone will jump on this next statement, the solution is a throttle not automatic pedal assist. With a throttle YOU control when and where you get assistance, if at all, and exactly how much. I ride an ebike capable of quite high power, and on wide open fire trails I give it a squirt, but on tight stuff half the time I'm not using any power at all or just easing on a little bit. Of course the concern everyone has is that noobs or assholes will do the wrong thing and wreck the trails.
Bottom line is pedal assist bikes that have a slight delay or assist modes you need to tap up and down through aren't suited to single track. They're good on the street but not for technical offroad stuff. It's roughly the equivalent of cruise control on a twisty mountain road where the car gallops off into a hairpin because that's what you'd previously wanted.

 

[Dozer]

To the people who feel like they're going to drop dead on uphill segments like that, that's generally a good thing!
Everything else you said is spot on though - those are the problems with pedal assist ebikes. As much as everyone will jump on this next statement, the solution is a throttle not automatic pedal assist. With a throttle YOU control when and where you get assistance, if at all, and exactly how much. I ride an ebike capable of quite high power, and on wide open fire trails I give it a squirt, but on tight stuff half the time I'm not using any power at all or just easing on a little bit. Of course the concern everyone has is that noobs or assholes will do the wrong thing and wreck the trails.
Bottom line is pedal assist bikes that have a slight delay or assist modes you need to tap up and down through aren't suited to single track. They're good on the street but not for technical offroad stuff. It's roughly the equivalent of cruise control on a twisty mountain road where the car gallops off into a hairpin because that's what you'd previously wanted.

So, in summary; it's totally and utterly pointless?