Electric Vehicles etc

goobags

Likes Dirt
There’s an NRMA one in Mittagong, 15 minutes on it would definitely ease the nerves.


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Fred Nurk

Likes Dirt
long haul actually makes more sense than consumer EV.

They have defined routes, defined and legislated stops and they already weight a crapload. At each end of their journey they have to be loaded and unloaded which makes a great pairing with charging.

Having said that though, I think they are a better fit for hydrogen.
On a technical basis perhaps... Yes, BEV trucks lose cargo capacity (which is lost money) and lose range (which with legislated stops may or may not be a problem), but at the end of the day its dollars per kms spent vs dollars per km earnt on cargo.

If the maths adds up, carrying smaller loads at perhaps a longer travel time may still be beneficial once the massively reduced operating costs come in.

Like all EV conversations, YMMV.
Nothing transport related makes sense for hydrogen. The conversion efficiencies from a financial perspective if nothing else make it a non-starter, the only way to make it cheap is to make hydrogen from fossil fuels (which is what is done now) and even with that one is better off just burning the fossil fuel instead of losing part of it's value to make hydrogen.

i.e. there's no way to make green hydrogen cheaper than the electricity used to make it.
 

Calvin27

Eats Squid
i.e. there's no way to make green hydrogen cheaper than the electricity used to make it.
I think for commercial and freight the difference is the lifetime of EV vs hydrogen. Most accounts of hydrogen systems suggests that the tanks are rock solid and not very expensive relative to battery tech (i.e. not heaps of rare metals used relative to EV). There is practically no degradation for hydrogen systems and I would have no idea how long a an EV truck might last doing 10 hour trips daily with fast charging all the time. Not long would be my guess, which is why they would almost have to do slow charging with interchangables which has it's own problems.

Th cost of electricity isnt really an issue either with solar PV still getting cheaper as we go on and feed in tarrifs falling off a cliff. Once the grid gets more renwable hydrogen can act as a great leveler for this energy either in the grid or on transport sector.
 

Fred Nurk

Likes Dirt
I think for commercial and freight the difference is the lifetime of EV vs hydrogen. Most accounts of hydrogen systems suggests that the tanks are rock solid and not very expensive relative to battery tech (i.e. not heaps of rare metals used relative to EV). There is practically no degradation for hydrogen systems and I would have no idea how long a an EV truck might last doing 10 hour trips daily with fast charging all the time. Not long would be my guess, which is why they would almost have to do slow charging with interchangables which has it's own problems.

Th cost of electricity isnt really an issue either with solar PV still getting cheaper as we go on and feed in tarrifs falling off a cliff. Once the grid gets more renwable hydrogen can act as a great leveler for this energy either in the grid or on transport sector.
No on both counts.
Hydrogen leaks, and whilst the tanks are 'rock solid' the hydrogen still leaks out of them. Estimates for shipping of liquefied hydrogen (at great energy expense in addition to producing the hydrogen) are at about 1% loss per day. I was involved in a very small scale hydrogen energy storage platform as a replacement for batteries for remote installations some years ago. The capacity loss with purpose built hydrogen cylinders was at no point better than the battery loss of capacity, in general when we could get the plant to operate it was worse.

Cost of electricity is absolutely an issue, even if it's free there's still the balance of plant for compression and storage of hydrogen, not to mention at best electrolysis is about 70% efficient. The net effect of hydrogen's inefficiency in production and usage means it makes no sense to use hydrogen where electricity is possible, and this is at least partly supported in the lack of sales of hydrogen vehicles.

 

Calvin27

Eats Squid
Estimates for shipping of liquefied hydrogen (at great energy expense in addition to producing the hydrogen) are at about 1% loss per day.
About the same order of magintude for EV batteries...? Leakage shouldn't be an issue for long haul freight. But in any case I was referring to the lifetime of the systems. I cannot see a daily charged EV battery lasting long enough for commercial needs.

Cost of electricity is absolutely an issue, even if it's free there's still the balance of plant for compression and storage of hydrogen, not to mention at best electrolysis is about 70% efficient.
Comes down to the balance of hydrogen generation vs EV battery supply cost. I guess that's anyones guess, but for me the scarcity and global supply chain issues doesn't fill me with confidence we can just keep buying our cheap batteries out of china indefinately.
 

Fred Nurk

Likes Dirt
About the same order of magintude for EV batteries...? Leakage shouldn't be an issue for long haul freight. But in any case I was referring to the lifetime of the systems. I cannot see a daily charged EV battery lasting long enough for commercial needs.



Comes down to the balance of hydrogen generation vs EV battery supply cost. I guess that's anyones guess, but for me the scarcity and global supply chain issues doesn't fill me with confidence we can just keep buying our cheap batteries out of china indefinately.
Given that fuel cell cars still need batteries, albeit not quite as large as a BEV, then it's not really a solution to avoiding supply chain issues.
 

Scotty T

2.6 inches
No on both counts.
Hydrogen is bullshit as per Fred's comments. It is a real shame the fossil fuel companies have convinced governments and punters otherwise.

About the same order of magintude for EV batteries...? Leakage shouldn't be an issue for long haul freight. But in any case I was referring to the lifetime of the systems. I cannot see a daily charged EV battery lasting long enough for commercial needs.

Comes down to the balance of hydrogen generation vs EV battery supply cost. I guess that's anyones guess, but for me the scarcity and global supply chain issues doesn't fill me with confidence we can just keep buying our cheap batteries out of china indefinately.
Batteries are generally good for 300-500k km. Then can be used for low power situations for several more years. Then broken down and recycled to yield more ore than the original dirt that was dug up to make it.
 

Fred Nurk

Likes Dirt
Hydrogen is bullshit as per Fred's comments. It is a real shame the fossil fuel companies have convinced governments and punters otherwise.



Batteries are generally good for 300-500k km. Then can be used for low power situations for several more years. Then broken down and recycled to yield more ore than the original dirt that was dug up to make it.
Green hydrogen as a replacement for the fossil fuel manufactured hydrogen currently used to make fertiliser and other such products is a great use.
Using it to burn or as an energy carrier for fuel cells and so on is not.
 

Haakon

Trap? What trap?
Green hydrogen as a replacement for the fossil fuel manufactured hydrogen currently used to make fertiliser and other such products is a great use.
Using it to burn or as an energy carrier for fuel cells and so on is not.
Exactly. Its an expensive energy carrier, use it on high value uses where alternatives are not available. BEVs are easy and cost effective, and now charge quickly - FCEVs are an expensive answer to a question that is no longer relevant.
 

tubby74

Likes Bikes and Dirt
There’s an NRMA one in Mittagong, 15 minutes on it would definitely ease the nerves
i'll try that on the way down, hopefully a little less busy early morning. annoyingly the one at mittagong tourst info centre is only open 930-430 as you have to go in to ask for a key. bit more digging says I can top up on a evie charger at campbelltown on the way back if things get desperate.

tried asking the client if there's any outdoor power point. 6-8 hours on a regular socket would be plenty and i'd happily knock if off the invoice for convenience. The way they scoffed suggests they dont realise you normally just plug these in like any appliance.
 

Haakon

Trap? What trap?
Tesla killer?

No, but complementary. Tesla will still sell as many as they can make so not a tesla killer. But these will sell like hotcakes as well.

Of course its a fucking SUV so it can die in a ditch for all I care, but its sedan sister car looks good. As does the MG4 thats on sale in the UK already.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
These will sell well.
Even despite the comedically shit (and Australian-specific) warranty clauses. At least it sounds like the battery should be reliable, so they might go on to second lives in other applications.
 

downunderdallas

Likes Dirt
Now here's some thinking that's along the lines of what I've been thinking about EVs... basically most of the current crop of EVs are potentially too much of a handful for your average driver.
Tend to agree here, that MG4 above has a dual motor variant just released in China with apparently 450HP and potentially under $60K - I think much cheaper to make a powerful electric motor compared to comparable ICE. Haven't let my 17 yo behnd the wheel of the Tesla yet albeit it's probably considerably safer that the Kingswood I learnt to drive with.
 

Scotty T

2.6 inches
Haven't let my 17 yo behnd the wheel of the Tesla yet albeit it's probably considerably safer that the Kingswood I learnt to drive with.
Can you lock it to chill mode for the kiddy winks? I'm thinking of having that feature in my conversion if I can.

Meanwhile, your leftover chilli crab could be the next power source:

 
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