Fire Warnings

[Oddjob]

Sure, then we are left with only old growth trees & then they die we are left with nothing?

We should napalm the entire country - no more fires ya cunts!

Nice. Keep it classy.

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[moorey]

Totally serious.

I'm not confident we can muster up enough resources to put out really big fire storms.

Perhaps the better strategy is defence in depth with large buffer zones around population centres with seriously thinned out bush to starve fire fronts of fuel.

It's low tech and would require lots of planning and man hours but if we're happy to spend bug dollars on fire fighting, why not?


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That sounds like a very city-centric solution to a country-centric probem.

 

[Freediver]

not sure if serious...

Actually not as dumb as it sounds. You may have heard the often repeated mantra from the logging industry that there is more eucalypts in Aus now than pre white settlement. This may actually be true even though the area covered by eucalypts is greatly diminished. When an area is clear felled the regrowth is much denser than the original forest and made up of much thinner trees that are more fire prone. By thinning you reduce the rush for light and the trees put more of there growth into girth, you also reduce competition for nutrients and water which allows them to grow quicker. When trees are further apart and the thicker they are the more resistant to fire they are.
Over time the forest naturally thins itself and is very fire prone while this is happening. Thinning forest ourselves to speed maturation, limit the intensity of fires and give the trees that are regrowing a better chance of surviving a fire may be part of the solution.

Perhaps the better strategy is defence in depth with large buffer zones around population centres with seriously thinned out bush to starve fire fronts of fuel.


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People supporting ideas like this is what happens when the logging industry misuses science.

 

[hifiandmtb]

What about national parks that have evolved over time with little to no human intervention? Sydney is ringed by national parks - should we wade in, deciding what goes & what stays?

And what do you do with all the slayed foliage? You can't can't leave it sitting on the forest floor.

What do you do about all the flora & fauna relying on the ecosystem as it is now?

 

[BKMad]

Actually not as dumb as it sounds. You may have heard the often repeated mantra from the logging industry that there is more eucalypts in Aus now than pre white settlement. This may actually be true even though the area covered by eucalypts is greatly diminished. When an area is clear felled the regrowth is much denser than the original forest and made up of much thinner trees that are more fire prone. By thinning you reduce the rush for light and the trees put more of there growth into girth, you also reduce competition for nutrients and water which allows them to grow quicker. When trees are further apart and the thicker they are the more resistant to fire they are.
Over time the forest naturally thins itself and is very fire prone while this is happening. Thinning forest ourselves to speed maturation, limit the intensity of fires and give the trees that are regrowing a better chance of surviving a fire may be part of the solution.



People supporting ideas like this is what happens when the logging industry misuses science.

Yes there probably is some truth in the statement about more eucalypts. There is a lot less rainforest as well which is a lot less likely to burn. And when rainforest is burnt it is the eucalypts that tend to grow back making the situation gradually worse. My view is that we should be encouraging more rainforest species in forested areas. Dunno how to implement that of course.

 

[Oddjob]

That sounds like a very city-centric solution to a country-centric probem.

Sure, but is it an invalid strategy?

I can see the bush fires are becoming bigger and the season is starting earlier. It's not evident to me that we can effectively stop them before they really get going. The fires last summer were put out by an act of god, not by planes, firebreaks or any other form of human intervention.

Will adding more planes/helicopters to this mix change the above? If not what do we do?

It's been a while but my natural resource training suggested that fuel, oxygen and heat were the holy trinity of fires. Take one away and the fires stop. If we can starve fires of fuel then it makes it easier to use planes/helicopters to starve them of heat. We could in theory use hyperbaric bombs to starve them of oxygen but good luck getting anyone to try that.

Ps I may be a city slicker but I was in the Snowys on a farm doing work experience putting out embers in the 2003 fires. I've seen first hand how far a fire front can jump.

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[moorey]

Sure, but is it an invalid strategy?

I can see the bush fires are becoming bigger and the season is starting earlier. It's not evident to me that we can effectively stop them before they really get going. The fires last summer were put out by an act of god, not by planes, firebreaks or any other form of human intervention.

Will adding more planes/helicopters to this mix change the above? If not what do we do?

It's been a while but my natural resource training suggested that fuel, oxygen and heat were the holy trinity of fires. Take one away and the fires stop. If we can starve fires of fuel then it makes it easier to use planes/helicopters to starve them of heat. We could in theory use hyperbaric bombs to starve them of oxygen but good luck getting anyone to try that.

Ps I may be a city slicker but I was in the Snowys on a farm doing work experience putting out embers in the 2003 fires. I've seen first hand how far a fire front can jump.

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I'm not saying that there's NO merit in what you're saying, just that in aus where the large cities are largely immune from the problem(aside from complaining about smoke), but reliant on the resources and goods produced in the country, that protecting the cities sounds a bit tone deaf.

 

[pink poodle]

And don't forget, three billion animals killed or seriously affected by these fires in January.

These fires will be back.

Yeah but the animals won't...so we probably don't need to worry as much this time round.

 

[Oddjob]

People supporting ideas like this is what happens when the logging industry misuses science.

I don't have much patience for the logging industry and have even less time for farmers clear felling land.

What interests me are ecologists in the US looking at the impact of intense fire fighting efforts since the 20th century on forestry. I can't remember the paper but the scientist was on the ABC after the california fires in 2018.

He basically said the strategy of intense firefighting had effectively allowed the forests to fill out massively and in effect create huge piles of fuel. This basically meant that if a fire got started it was almost impossible to stop without a significant rain event.

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[Oddjob]

I'm not saying that there's NO merit in what you're saying, just that in aus where the large cities are largely immune from the problem(aside from complaining about smoke), but reliant on the resources and goods produced in the country, that protecting the cities sounds a bit tone deaf.

But the large cities aren't immune. Sydney is ringed by national park and I can even remember inner suburbs like Manly, Northbridge and Castlecrag having bushfires in the early 2000s.

I'm more thinking strategically in terms of having low fuel buffer zones close to manpower and resources. In effect creating a hedgehog defence.



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[Haakon]

Totally serious.

I'm not confident we can muster up enough resources to put out really big fire storms.

Perhaps the better strategy is defence in depth with large buffer zones around population centres with seriously thinned out bush to starve fire fronts of fuel.

It's low tech and would require lots of planning and man hours but if we're happy to spend bug dollars on fire fighting, why not?


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Ah. Right, so this is a common idea - but shows a poor appreciation of the scale of such a task. It’s a big country, and there are quite few trees out there - if you get a start now and throw the country’s entire workforce at it you might make a dent in about three hundred years. Maybe...

 

[Oddjob]

Ah. Right, so this is a common idea - but shows a poor appreciation of the scale of such a task. It’s a big country, and there are quite few trees out there - if you get a start now and throw the country’s entire workforce at it you might make a dent in about three hundred years. Maybe...

Captain Phillip got here 230 odd years ago. We've managed to do a pretty awesome job of land clearing since then, much of it with hand saws and oxen.


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[moorey]

They aren't immune.....but tend to only

Captain Phillip got here 230 odd years ago. We've managed to do a pretty awesome job of land clearing since then, much of it with hand saws and oxen.


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Um....and that’s a good thing?
I swear, if you get me supporting @Haakon, we are through.

 

[Haakon]

Captain Phillip got here 230 odd years ago. We've managed to do a pretty awesome job of land clearing since then, much of it with hand saws and oxen.


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haha, true. But my point is that it’s a wasaaaaaaaaaaasaay bigger job than anyone seems to appreciate.

And that’s before we get into property rights and ecology issues.

 

[Oddjob]

They aren't immune.....but tend to only

Um....and that’s a good thing?
I swear, if you get me supporting @Haakon, we are through.

Tend to only what?

I never said it was good. Just needed to remind everyone that @Haakon is wrong. Just wrong. Especially about cars.

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[moorey]

Tend to only what?

I never said it was good. Just needed to remind everyone that @Haakon is wrong. Just wrong. Especially about cars.

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I have no idea about that first line
I think it was an earlier thought I’d deleted and retyped with something else.
It’s still strike 1.

 

[Freediver]

What about national parks that have evolved over time with little to no human intervention? Sydney is ringed by national parks - should we wade in, deciding what goes & what stays?
Didn't you know that no forest can manage itself and they all need human intervention.

And what do you do with all the slayed foliage? You can't can't leave it sitting on the forest floor.
Woodchips and burn the "waste" in situ

Here's where I'm seen as a bit of a heretic in forest protest circles but many of the forests we have interfered with will not recover without human intervention. Without an economic rational for restoring damaged ecosystems it isn't going to happen. Gasification of thinnings for energy production is a way of giving an economic incentive to thinning forests that need it. 4.5 kg of wood is equivalent to about 1 litre of petrol.
The CFMEU and logging companies version of clearfelling forests for fuel to replace the woodchip market they are slowly losing has unfortunately tainted the idea of doing it in a sustainable way.

 

[Asininedrivel]

Ah. Right, so this is a common idea - but shows a poor appreciation of the scale of such a task. It’s a big country, and there are quite few trees out there - if you get a start now and throw the country’s entire workforce at it you might make a dent in about three hundred years. Maybe...

Reminds me of a time when I worked for a land manager and after a rather serious issue was fielding queries from irate media asking why we didn't have arborist reports for every tree in our national parks......

 

[pink poodle]

haha, true. But my point is that it’s a wasaaaaaaaaaaasaay bigger job than anyone seems to appreciate.

I don't know man. It didn't take those flames very long.

 

[frenchman]

I don't know man. It didn't take those flames very long.

See the entirety of the NT.... every year