Forum: Do Tire Inserts Mean It's Time to Rethink Tire Design?

[Bulk]

http://feeds.vitalmtb.com/~r/VitalM...rts-mean-its-time-to-rethink-tire-design,9949

Vital member David.Max poses an interesting question for those willing to think outside the box. more »

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[Nautonier]

It's definitely time to rethink tyre design. With more capable bikes than ever being ridden faster on more demanding trails, Enduro bikes are often running dual ply DH tyres and (as stated in the article) WC DH races are being won and lost with dedicated DH tyres (even with inserts) failing regularly.

If the best mechanics in the world working with access to the best rubber (and technology) on the market can't keep their riders from flatting, then something needs to change.

Why can't we just make tyres a bit stronger? Sure, they'll weigh ~1.5kg, but surely that's preferable to constant flats? And as the article proposes, they could have built in inserts meaning less air and the ability to make it down the trail fast even if they did lose the air. Or no air at all and foam inners that approximated the correct PSI.

Running tyres at rock hard pressures to avoid issues just seems like a shoddy workaround. I'm sure WC and EWS racers don't run 40+ PSI. Or do they?

 

[DMan]

It's definitely time to rethink tyre design. With more capable bikes than ever being ridden faster on more demanding trails, Enduro bikes are often running dual ply DH tyres and (as stated in the article) WC DH races are being won and lost with dedicated DH tyres (even with inserts) failing regularly.

If the best mechanics in the world working with access to the best rubber (and technology) on the market can't keep their riders from flatting, then something needs to change.

Why can't we just make tyres a bit stronger? Sure, they'll weigh ~1.5kg, but surely that's preferable to constant flats? And as the article proposes, they could have built in inserts meaning less air and the ability to make it down the trail fast even if they did lose the air. Or no air at all and foam inners that approximated the correct PSI.

Running tyres at rock hard pressures to avoid issues just seems like a shoddy workaround. I'm sure WC and EWS racers don't run 40+ PSI. Or do they?

Are you running any inserts then like Cushcore or Huck Norris? I've had a couple of pinch flats lately and was wondering about then. Although I think H.N are more for punctures no?

 

[Nautonier]

Are you running any inserts then like Cushcore or Huck Norris? I've had a couple of pinch flats lately and was wondering about then. Although I think H.N are more for punctures no?

Nope, did the research and wasn't convinced. For all that extra weight and expense it's cheaper and easier to just run DH tyres tubeless on the Enduro bike and have zero hassles. If you want to eliminate pinch flats you need to go tubeless. Or run your tyres at 50psi.

 

[DMan]

Nope, did the research and wasn't convinced. For all that extra weight and expense it's cheaper and easier to just run DH tyres tubeless on the Enduro bike and have zero hassles. If you want to eliminate pinch flats you need to go tubeless. Or run your tyres at 50psi.

Yeah I know. Just have to get some goo and do it. The Hopes are hard to set up and tubes are so easy.... hwell:

 

[Nautonier]

Yeah I know. Just have to get some goo and do it. The Hopes are hard to set up and tubes are so easy.... hwell:

Really, I find the opposite. With tubes you have to be so careful with the tyre levers not to pinch them. With tubeless you just slap them on with as much brute force as needed. No need for a compressor either with those brilliant $80 reservoir style pumps. Gorilla tape, Stans goo, a compressor or reservoir pump (often just a regular track pump will do it), bit of soapy water and you'll never get a pinch flat again.

 

[DMan]

Really, I find the opposite. With tubes you have to be so careful with the tyre levers not to pinch them. With tubeless you just slap them on with as much brute force as needed. No need for a compressor either with those brilliant $80 reservoir style pumps. Gorilla tape, Stans goo, a compressor or reservoir pump (often just a regular track pump will do it), bit of soapy water and you'll never get a pinch flat again.

Yeah, I know. But even with my compressor I couldn't get the Hope to seal last time I changed a tyre so I tubed it as I needed the wheel in a hurry. In fairness though the valve could have been dodgy. I'll suck it up and have another go.

 

[wkkie]

....bit of soapy water and you'll never get a pinch flat again.

I haven't found that with tubeless. A small cut near the bead where the flex of the tyre stops it sealing and your back to a tube anyway. Either that or a $60+ tyre is in the bin with a heap of good tread left...

 

[creaky]

Or run your tyres at 50psi.

Really ? Pinch flats with tubeless weren't an issue for us mortals (WC riders and clydes aside) when we were running 30psi. It's just a function of this trend to run low 20's pressures. Sure they ride nice but there are compromises (e.g pinch flats).

I do agree though, these insert thingies are trying to mask the real problem which is tyre/sidewall durability.

 

[The Reverend]

I haven't found that with tubeless. A small cut near the bead where the flex of the tyre stops it sealing and your back to a tube anyway. Either that or a $60+ tyre is in the bin with a heap of good tread left...

Same with me.. generally I do get less pinch flats but the question is balancing the pressure to get the benefits of traction and comfort vs not trashing my wheels / tyres. Cushcore looks like a decent solution but, urh. more weight.

 

[Nautonier]

I haven't found that with tubeless. A small cut near the bead where the flex of the tyre stops it sealing and your back to a tube anyway. Either that or a $60+ tyre is in the bin with a heap of good tread left...

I was interpreting 'pinch flats' as the snake bites you get in a tube when the tyre compresses against the rim. What you're describing (in a tubeless scenario) is all too common (you should see the number if tyres sitting in my shed that have this issue) and is the reason I've moved to full DH tyres. I haven't had this happen with a dual ply sidewall yet.

Back to my original point, I think tyres need to be more durable - especially on the sidewalls. Exo, Snakeskin, Double Down, Grid etc - all of it has let me down and I don't race or ride half as fast as pro riders do. In terms of the PSI debate, it's useless to say "that's too much" or "that's not enough" as it really depends on the weight of the rider and what they are putting the bike through. It would be nice to not have this dictated by how fragile the rubber is.

 

[Oddjob]

Low weight, durability, low pressure. Choose two.

Tyre technology changes the tradeoffs slightly but physics...

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[johnny]

I was interpreting 'pinch flats' as the snake bites you get in a tube when the tyre compresses against the rim.

Yeah, one's a pinch with a tube and the other is a pinch with the tyre. Same shit, different victim.

 

[wkkie]

Low weight, durability, low pressure. Choose two.

Tyre technology changes the tradeoffs slightly but physics...

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Low weight, low pressure... ?? :noidea:

 

[Oddjob]

Low weight, low pressure... ?? :noidea:

Want a durable tire at low pressure? Run a heavy dh tire. Want a light tire to last more than one run? Increase the pressure. Etc etc.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Nautonier]

Want a durable tire at low pressure? Run a heavy dh tire. Want a light tire to last more than one run? Increase the pressure.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

That's pretty much the best technology has come up with so far, which is far from ideal. Heavy DH tyres on bikes that are good at going down the hills (Enduro and DH bikes) really aren't a problem, but on Trail and XC bikes they suck. Fortunately less travel (usually) dictates what a bike will be subjected to, however many of the Enduro contingent are still battling it out with tyres that really aren't up to the task (but are marketed as being so). Great for tyre sales and living in a constant state of compromise.