Get the girls with our special weight-loss dieting techniques

[my02]

Give him a chance guys.

I know from other posts that MWI works in the industry so although his post may come across as slightly inflammatory, there may be something to learn here.

After all its interesting to get a variety of views.

 

[Damienp]

Give him a chance guys.

I know from other posts that MWI works in the industry so although his post may come across as slightly inflammatory, there may be something to learn here.

After all its interesting to get a variety of views.

This.

There used to be a lot of value in this thread and some of it now is verging on Broscience. The first rule of learning anything is to be skeptical. There is not one approach that solves every problem.
A bit of tolerance and respect goes a long way and some of our younger members would do well to remember that.

 

[Steve-0]

Give him a chance guys.

I know from other posts that MWI works in the industry so although his post may come across as slightly inflammatory, there may be something to learn here.

After all its interesting to get a variety of views.

I'm keen as hell to see some more views in this thread but it needs to be fact, not bro-science.

Edit: Responded.

 

[@nDr3w]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helpful input. It's just that snippets like these:

This subject has been hilarious, been reading through it for a few days now, it shows that the average person will believe anything that is told to them by a personal trainer or advertised on television.

Don't help anyone, especially in a thread where there's been a really supportive sense of community/people genuinely trying to help eachother.

 

[jonozrx]

I think mywifesirrational will be able to add a lot of value to the thread, so hopefully he (or she) will stick around.

Have to disagree on protein supps being a waste of money though - on a $ per gram of protein basis, bulk WPI or WPC are usually much cheaper than whole foods. That's the only reason I use them, I'm a massive cheapskate.

 

[moto_guy]

Eat a balanced diet, protein supplements are a waste of money.

..........

 

[stringbean]

gym for the first time in 12 days, tafe block came up just when i was gettin into a good rythm, bit better time mannagement and i should be laughing

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I think mywifesirrational will be able to add a lot of value to the thread, so hopefully he (or she) will stick around.

Have to disagree on protein supps being a waste of money though - on a $ per gram of protein basis, bulk WPI or WPC are usually much cheaper than whole foods. That's the only reason I use them, I'm a massive cheapskate.

I not necessarily saying don't take protein supplements, but make sure diet is 100% before throwing away good money on a bandaid fix.
But there's little nutritional value compared to real food, if they add vits / minerals, the body struggles to metabolise them like real food.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helpful input. It's just that snippets like these:

Don't help anyone, especially in a thread where there's been a really supportive sense of community/people genuinely trying to help eachother.

I do apologise, i didn't mean to come across like that, sometimes I don't bother re-reading my posts and it comes across poorly.

It has been a good thread and I have enjoyed reading it. The sense of community in here is excellent, but to me this thread also highlights the risk of taking advice off the internet (kind of ironic considering me typing this). There's an awful lot of the myths and crap in here mixed in with some quality decent advice. The average person falls for the bad advice everytime for some reason, not their fault, there just not trained in the skills to separate the crap from the truth. Part of the problem is the average personal trainer (99% of them) although highly enthusiastic has absolutely no real knowledge and magazines like mens health are absolute crap, having taught in the exercise science for many years now even the average ex sci graduate is a dubious source of info.

I have to disagree with the "Training has no relation to muscle mass/size" though, How is it then that a powerlifter can be absolutley tiny compared to a bodybuilder at the same level of strength (1RM's)? Even at the same bodyweight? If you want big muscles you need to train differently to if you want strength. Which you even state yourself later... "beginner style programs are typically not 6rep / high intensity, that's a great strength program with minimal hypertrophy"

theme.

I probably misinterpreted, I took it as stage of training, I have trained elite to clinical populations, its the same principles for both groups regardless of their training status, muscle mass, current strength and ability. You just apply it in a safer way for the old frail clients.

In regards to body builders, which is not a sport by the way, as they have no performance parameters - no strength, speed, skill, or any other performance measures are used in body builder, they always get angry when I tell them that.

Typically a power lifter will be substantially stronger then a body builder, in which there's three main reasons (there's more than three, but I need to get to bed).

Power lifters train to develop a high rate of force development (RFD) while it power lifting doesn't look particularly fast at a glance it is, they move very heavy loads very fast. In developing RFD neurologically you are able to recuit muscle fibres faster resulting in a greater summation of forces. Body builders typically train very slowing, this maximises the metabolic effect which in turn helps hypertorphy, but has little effect of absolute strength. I would highly recommend power training for cycling or any other sport as it is highly advantageous if you want to be quicker than the peep next to you.

Now that being said body builders do have excellent power, slap a protein shake out of the next body builders hand, if you don't get caught in 40-60 meters you'll get away, but over that short distance body builders are very fast (and now really angry).

As a muscle gets larger (larger fibres, not more fibres) pennation angles get less advantageous, that is each fibre as it gets bigger has more of an angle to pull from, ie it no longer pulls from straight down the muscle but more from the side, the larger the muscles the greater the pennation angle, the weaker you become for you're given mass. Hence the bigger a body builder gets the weaker they are in relation to their cross sectional area. I don't think I explained that well, heres a link.

http://homepage.mac.com/wis/Personal/lectures/musculoskeletal/MuscleMechanics.pdf

Lastly specificity plays a more important role than people realise, power athletes train with very large gross movements, and essentially they get very coordinated and efficient at doing this. Body builders train in isolation (no not in the closet, well maybe... single muscle groups) so fatigue is less of an issue so that can maximise rep ranges. When you train in isolation there is minimal cross over to gross movements. I imagine a body builder could bicep curl more than a power lifting as this is very specific to body body, although pointless for every sport I can think of.

View attachment 229297
..........

do you actually believe that protein supplements are needed? The supplement company, sales idiot, idiot at gym will tell you you must use them, at least for the first two its because they want your money, and the third, well the poor guy believed the first two.

We only need a modest amount of protein to build muscle, more is not better - I haven't read any research into this in the last two years but last decent study I read was 1.62g/kg/per day. The more protein you ingest, the larger you're calorie intake = fatter. More protein intake more filtration through the kidneys, damaged kidneys are not common but it does happen. You could always cut out carbs? then be so flat you can't train a decent intensity.

Eat a well balanced diet, have all foods in moderation, you'll get big, strong (with good training) and feel great. Sorry but sometimes the most simple and obvious advice is the best - but that doesn't make an entire industry built on lies money.

 

[@nDr3w]

Snip.

Now that was a quality post! I'd never heard of pennatation angles before, that was super interesting.

I'm still a fan of protein powder, though. Trying to hit around 150g of protein intake a day can be tricky, and I feel a simple 30g shake once, sometimes even twice a day has helped me tonnes with calculating/keeping my diet consistent.

 

[Steve-0]

I aggree with all of that You are one knowladgable man MWI. I try to keep as much false info out of my posts as possible but sometimes it still creeps in. Haven't heard of the pennation angle thing before but it makes sense when you think about it. I like looking bigger then the average joe (which I don't yet really lol) but I always value real world strength over anything else.

Good sources of info is very hard to find because as you say, most magazines are trash and generic qualifications gained by wannabe PT's are outdated and fairly worthless on there own.



Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

 

[Chalkie]

do you actually believe that protein supplements are needed? The supplement company, sales idiot, idiot at gym will tell you you must use them, at least for the first two its because they want your money, and the third, well the poor guy believed the first two.

We only need a modest amount of protein to build muscle, more is not better - I haven't read any research into this in the last two years but last decent study I read was 1.62g/kg/per day. The more protein you ingest, the larger you're calorie intake = fatter. More protein intake more filtration through the kidneys, damaged kidneys are not common but it does happen. You could always cut out carbs? then be so flat you can't train a decent intensity.

Eat a well balanced diet, have all foods in moderation, you'll get big, strong (with good training) and feel great. Sorry but sometimes the most simple and obvious advice is the best - but that doesn't make an entire industry built on lies money.

I have to say, whilst I believe most supplements are not necessary if you are eating a balanced diet, the introduction of protein powders can be very useful to hit required protein intakes for the day. If I could afford it (both in terms of money and time), sure, I'd just eat to reach those numbers, but for most people its just not so realistic. I'm also under the impression that whey proteins are a rich source essential amino acids....

" The interaction of postexercise metabolic processes and increased amino acid availability maximizes the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis and results in even greater muscle anabolism than when dietary amino acids are not present. " International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism [2001, 11(1):109-32]

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I'm still a fan of protein powder, though. Trying to hit around 150g of protein intake a day can be tricky, and I feel a simple 30g shake once, sometimes even twice a day has helped me tonnes with calculating/keeping my diet consistent.

I must state that I not a sports nutritionist and this is not my area of expertise, but down the corridor is a nice prof. who is.

I aim for 160g a day based off my mass and most days I reach it easily, but I really, really like tuna, meat and milk. If i am not training or sedentary for a week here and there, I typically taper down my carbs more so than protein intake to try and stay calorie neutral. Nothing wrong with protein supplementation as long as you understand the bigger picture, unfortunately many people simply think more is better, and ignore the importance of carbs and other important factors (like training properly).

It all depends on your mass, if you weigh 70kg you only need around 115g per day - or 100kg around 160g. Now if your on anabolic steroids which do all sorts of interesting things to protein synthesis who knows? ethics won't allow people to research into this area. Its also unclear to me the recommendation is based of healthy relatively lean people. If you're over weight, I'd think that you'd need less than the normal recommendation as you lean muscle mass is much lower compared to your overall weight?? Training an obese client I wouldn't think that 1.6g/kg/day would be good, presume 160kg mass = 260 grams protein per day = 4350kj. that's a lot of kjs.

ALL My information comes straight from places like PubMed and from very reputable trainers. No Bro-science here! I'm not investing thousands of hours into learning if it's wrong.

I don't know the exact figure but 1.62g/kg sounds pretty good. I see 1.5g-2g per kg posted everywhere. More then that can't hurt, it's just excess calories. I mentioned "200g-300g" as a joke in reference to moto_guy's PT that said that protein is everything. As you say later on, No it's not. There's plenty more to it.

Whilst your a beginner (which most people in here are) you can add muscle and lose fat at the same time. It's just hard and slow. "Protein intake can limit LBM losses" Also, LBM can be increased if protein intake is high and the deficit is small see here.

Thanks for linking Steve-O.

I read them this morning and they're not recommending a protein intake as per normal training, but during times of hypoenergetic weight loss, ie losing weight via calorie restriction. These are not training studies that we can directly apply results to protein and strength training under normal conditions. But they are very interesting studies - and very applicable to those in sport which need to make a weight class - or getting lean for summer, whilst minimising atrophy.

It's also well established that intake of protein in the absence of a training stimulus promotes muscle growth, via increased protein synthesis within the muscle. During hospitalisation of frail elderly folk, where maintaining muscle mass is crucial, they dietitians typically up the protein intake to minimize atrophy, I have seen a dietitian at the hospital spend her own money to buy eggs to feed some very frail inpatients (the hospital does not have enough budget to do this), there is some great people working in public health, that get very little credit or recognition for what they do.

I have a friend who is a very well educated body builder, when he goes on holiday he ups his protein intake quiet heavily for that period (usually around 3g/kg/daily) hes a 100kg lean man mountain. We have snuck into the dexa lab here at work, dexa being a very reliable way to measure body composition, in this case pre and post holiday, whilst the data we have is N=1 it still comes quite close to the data from the studies above, but it a different context, increasing protein helps maintain muscle mass during sedentary periods (I'd imagine the mechainisms are related somehow to the studies above). But we have not accounted for the overall increase in Kj per day, or accounted for neural adaptation or any other factors.

The Tarnopolsky study is a good read and well cited - they are recommending 1.76g/kg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Evaluation%20of%20protein%20requirements%20for%20trained%20strength%20athletes

The AIS website also is always a good source of condensed peer reviewed literature written in a nice easy to understand format. Interestingly they aim for 1.5-1.7g/kg for training, but have a 1.2g/kg for maintainence (presuming this is for weight class athletes? lifting, boxing etc).
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/basics/protein_-_how_much

Although their example diet is retarded? they state 1.7g as their highest recommendation but the example is at 2.4g.

I have to say, whilst I believe most supplements are not necessary if you are eating a balanced diet, the introduction of protein powders can be very useful to hit required protein intakes for the day. If I could afford it (both in terms of money and time), sure, I'd just eat to reach those numbers, but for most people its just not so realistic. I'm also under the impression that whey proteins are a rich source essential amino acids....

" The interaction of postexercise metabolic processes and increased amino acid availability maximizes the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis and results in even greater muscle anabolism than when dietary amino acids are not present. " International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism [2001, 11(1):109-32]

IS that the Tipton study Chalkie?
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/11255140

I'll have to use the document retrieval service before I can read that one.

I clearly have too much time... lol.

 

[Chalkie]

That looks like the one MWI

Good session today with 2 PBs

Pull Ups: 23 (bit of a leg kick for the last 2 or 3)

Deadlift: 145kg, 1RM

 

[Steve-0]

I'll have a read through those links MWI, Thanks for the info. After I found those studies, I now up my protein just a tad during breaks from regular eating (when I go away for work) and I come out the other end without too much lost.

I have a question though that I'm struggling to find a proper answer too (maybe you can answer it?), What's the best way to train for maximum hypertrophy? I've always believed it came down to fatiguing the muscle and breaking it down using a very high volume workout. Using a mix of 6-8reps for "fast twitch fibres" and 12-20 reps for "slow twitch fibres". Basically the goal is to break down the muscle as much as possible, force alot of blood into the muscle and then eat correctly (and in surplus) to build the muscle bigger.

So training more in isolation and really training a muscle hard -over time, not high intensity- will yield good results.

Is that even remotely correct or is it bro-science? I can make my way through powerlifting techniques and cycles but find it hard to distinguish whats right in the world of BB'ing.


Tonights dead lift session PR: 140kg 3 sets of 5. Absolutely killer.

 

[Bryce88]

Slow release proteins

Hello everyone.

Any suggestions for a good slow release protein? I have had mild success with horleys awesome mass, no success with maxs Supersize or wpi and have tried a few cheap proteins as well. My problem is I have a fast metabolism and struggle to take on any nutrients from supplements. Over 4 years I have gone from 60kgs to now between 83-85kgs. I am aiming to get to 90kgs and then basically maintain that weight. I am thinking I need something along the lines of Maxs srt which is slow release protein but wondering if anyone has had great success with other products?

I go to the gym 4 - 5 times a week, have a good solid routine and prefer to take a protein shake straight after a work out and maybe before bed too. I have tried pre-workout drinks and drinks you take during training but no success.

Thanks for your input.

 

[MJS]

Hello everyone.

Any suggestions for a good slow release protein? I have had mild success with horleys awesome mass, no success with maxs Supersize or wpi and have tried a few cheap proteins as well. My problem is I have a fast metabolism and struggle to take on any nutrients from supplements. Over 4 years I have gone from 60kgs to now between 83-85kgs. I am aiming to get to 90kgs and then basically maintain that weight. I am thinking I need something along the lines of Maxs srt which is slow release protein but wondering if anyone has had great success with other products?

I go to the gym 4 - 5 times a week, have a good solid routine and prefer to take a protein shake straight after a work out and maybe before bed too. I have tried pre-workout drinks and drinks you take during training but no success.

Thanks for your input.

Eat, eat and eat some more. Eat lots of lean meats, and make sure you get a good variety of veges in too. Bulking protein shakes are good, but you also need to make sure you're eating enough to put on the mass. I wouldn't be too worried about what sort of protein you're taking, any WPI or WPI/WPC blend should be fine, but a bulking protein high in carbs will definately speed things along.

 

[pin'd_it]

Any suggestions for a good slow release protein? I have had mild success with horleys awesome mass, no success with maxs Supersize or wpi and have tried a few cheap proteins as well.

You're issue might be the type of protein you are consuming. WPI is a Whey protein (along with WPC) and is a fast release protein. I don't know exactly what goes into each of the mixes you have listed, (usually there isn't a whole lot of difference between them apart from packaging and claims of the manufacturer), but I'll take a stab in the dark and say they are whey or other fast release protein based.

For slow release proteins people seem to look to Casein protein. I have never used Casein myself, but I'm sure others on here have.

Take a look at Bulknutrients for some Casein (1kg starting from $35 http://www.bulknutrients.com.au/protein/micellar-casein-1kg-1) - everything I have ever heard about them is good news, I have used them a number of times myself and I believe a few others on here have too. They offer cheap, good quality supps with very little of the claims and hype of other fitness industry manufacturers that put me off their products.

 

[Bryce88]

Eat, eat and eat some more. Eat lots of lean meats, and make sure you get a good variety of veges in too. Bulking protein shakes are good, but you also need to make sure you're eating enough to put on the mass. I wouldn't be too worried about what sort of protein you're taking, any WPI or WPI/WPC blend should be fine, but a bulking protein high in carbs will definately speed things along.

I do try and eat a well balanced diet. I agree, eating is very important in a weight gain diet, I'm just looking for a "boost". Also I don't want to put on a ridiculous amount of weight in a short amound of time cause the last thing I want is a double chin and beer belly because I put on 5kgs of fat lol.

 

[Bryce88]

You're issue might be the type of protein you are consuming. WPI is a Whey protein (along with WPC) and is a fast release protein. I don't know exactly what goes into each of the mixes you have listed, (usually there isn't a whole lot of difference between them apart from packaging and claims of the manufacturer), but I'll take a stab in the dark and say they are whey or other fast release protein based.

For slow release proteins people seem to look to Casein protein. I have never used Casein myself, but I'm sure others on here have.

Take a look at Bulknutrients for some Casein (1kg starting from $35 http://www.bulknutrients.com.au/protein/micellar-casein-1kg-1) - everything I have ever heard about them is good news, I have used them a number of times myself and I believe a few others on here have too. They offer cheap, good quality supps with very little of the claims and hype of other fitness industry manufacturers that put me off their products.

Thank you! I forgot about casein.

 

[Plow King]

Havn't had a protein shake in 4 months n I'm still making dem gains. Although I'm one fat motherfucker. Back down to 90 after getting to 92. Never again. 8 reps with 32.5 kg dumbells on bench. Holy crap dumbells are 100x harder to lift than Barbell. Will be interesting to see how much strength has increased when I go back to barbells.