Food/Diet help for the skinny kids - putting on size and protein suppliment suggestions

[spj]

Good info on the shin splints/stress fractures, its actually quite hard to find a decent definition of each just due to the fact that every second person has had what they will call "shin splints".

SPJRegarding your shoulder, it's near on impossible to give an accurate idea of potential problem due to the complexity of this part of the body. Self diagnosis of a long thoracic nerve palsy is a big call. Scapula winging can be the result of poor muscle balance, overuse, shoulder pain, habit, etc..... And the thoracic facets can actually refer somatic pain without true dermatomal NR irritation. Get it investigated - but you already should know this.

Didn't say that I thought it was a long thoracic palsy, said that there was potential but highly unlikely. By the way, have you ever seen winged scapula from damage to pec minor? (extremely uncommon?)

Yeah seeing the sports physician tomorrow.

 

[darryl]

Pec minor tightness, tends to cause more of a protracted shoulder position as opposed to a true winging of the scapula. I see it more with postural dysfunction than anything else.

Commonly winging is a response to change in muscular function as a response to pain. ie you tweak the bursa giving you an impingement type pain, which makes you alter the movement pattern in an attempt to maintain pain free movement. Winging develops and then contributes to perpetuating the ongoing problem. It also occurs due to overuse and fatigue, but that's another topic.

Misunderstood your post on the LT palsy, I have seen it a few times, mainly from MVA's or impact over the superior border of the scap, where the nerve passes through a little notch. Never heard of it with a clavicle fracture, but it could be possible.

What are your shoulder symptoms?

 

[mholden95]

Hey take a look at these articles they contain some info i think you'd find helpful;

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hardgainer-nutrition-how-to-eat-for-maximum-muscle-growth.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dickinson6.htm
http://www.cutandjacked.com/The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Bulking

Proper nutrition in conjunction with weight training should help you reach your goal provided your consistent with your lifestyle
You'll need to do some serious eating haha


Cheers,
mholden95

 

[driftking]

Hey take a look at these articles they contain some info i think you'd find helpful;

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hardgainer-nutrition-how-to-eat-for-maximum-muscle-growth.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dickinson6.htm
http://www.cutandjacked.com/The-Ultimate-Guide-To-Bulking

Proper nutrition in conjunction with weight training should help you reach your goal provided your consistent with your lifestyle
You'll need to do some serious eating haha


Cheers,
mholden95

While body building sites are good places to get information it tends to be buried under lots of ego or misinformation. It also should be cross checked with proper scientific results.

For one 9calories per lb for cutting is way way under so for a 60kg person were talking less than 1200 that is not enough to even be healthy, again Resting metabolism is a massive factor a endomorph and ectomorph will have very different needs.

Finally those ratios are in my opinion not only ridiculously unnessesary grams of protien but almost dangerous.
50%protien is he drunk? So on 4000calories (which can easily be the requiment for a extreme ectomorph during a bulk) we are talking 500grams of protien, the effects of that on the body not to mention the pointlessness of that much protien is crazy.

Everyone will have different ranges in ratios too, some people work better with high carbs other high fat.
I lean towards a 50:25:25 C:F
Now even at 25 protien was at talking 250gram protein which is still on the very upper limit and considered overkill.

I would urge people to research anything you read on BB forums lots of misinformation thrown around there.

There is some great information in those links still so do have a read.

 

[mholden95]

While body building sites are good places to get information it tends to be buried under lots of ego or misinformation. It also should be cross checked with proper scientific results.

For one 9calories per lb for cutting is way way under so for a 60kg person were talking less than 1200 that is not enough to even be healthy, again Resting metabolism is a massive factor a endomorph and ectomorph will have very different needs.

Finally those ratios are in my opinion not only ridiculously unnessesary grams of protien but almost dangerous.
50%protien is he drunk? So on 4000calories (which can easily be the requiment for a extreme ectomorph during a bulk) we are talking 500grams of protien, the effects of that on the body not to mention the pointlessness of that much protien is crazy.

Everyone will have different ranges in ratios too, some people work better with high carbs other high fat.
I lean towards a 50:25:25 C:F
Now even at 25 protien was at talking 250gram protein which is still on the very upper limit and considered overkill.

I would urge people to research anything you read on BB forums lots of misinformation thrown around there.

There is some great information in those links still so do have a read.

I totally understand where your coming from and I agree, but with these articles I was more intending the bulking/putting on weight concepts and tips that were contained in them that I thought people should give a read, as for the bodybuilding side of it, yes, that should be ignored

Thanks for the correction though, i did'nt realize it came across that way

 

[driftking]

I totally understand where your coming from and I agree, but with these articles I was more intending the bulking/putting on weight concepts and tips that were contained in them that I thought people should give a read, as for the bodybuilding side of it, yes, that should be ignored

Thanks for the correction though, i did'nt realize it came across that way

Wasn't having a go sorry if it came off that way.. Just was pointing out some issue i had with the articles. just to highlight that articles are good but don't always take them as gospel. It's always good to look at scientific result and personal needs need to be taken into account.

The articles have lots of good stuff in there as well. It was more a general guide for anyone who is reading lots of forums just to be weary.

 

[mholden95]

Wasn't having a go sorry if it came off that way.. Just was pointing out some issue i had with the articles. just to highlight that articles are good but don't always take them as gospel. It's always good to look at scientific result and personal needs need to be taken into account.

The articles have lots of good stuff in there as well. It was more a general guide for anyone who is reading lots of forums just to be weary.

No I didn't think you were having a go at me, it was probably my fault, I should have mentioned what your saying when I first posted

 

[shirtz]

thanks for all the replies guys.

currently im trying to get my back sorted so not doing any weight training, just "bulking" ha ha. had a look at this site, and with my limited knowledge seemed spot on. videos are good. worth a look

http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/

 

[driftking]

thanks for all the replies guys.

currently im trying to get my back sorted so not doing any weight training, just "bulking" ha ha. had a look at this site, and with my limited knowledge seemed spot on. videos are good. worth a look

http://www.scrawnytobrawny.com/

What? how are you bulking without weights?
If you mean eating and getting fat that doesn't count lol.

As for the website I had a very short scan of it, it seems to offer some very basic information which for someone just coming into it it pretty good as it makes it easy to comprehend before diving into technical areas. Although what I majorly hate are those style websites that are clearly completely focused on drawing you in with minimal information then getting you to join. I think its good to read, definitely go through what is on the site but as always google the suggestions and check everything twice and three times to make sure its right.
There was some good stuff their, I bookmarked a page or two for my own reading later as they had recipes etc, you get over eating the same food every day.

 

[shirtz]

What? how are you bulking without weights?
If you mean eating and getting fat that doesn't count lol.

As for the website I had a very short scan of it, it seems to offer some very basic information which for someone just coming into it it pretty good as it makes it easy to comprehend before diving into technical areas. Although what I majorly hate are those style websites that are clearly completely focused on drawing you in with minimal information then getting you to join. I think its good to read, definitely go through what is on the site but as always google the suggestions and check everything twice and three times to make sure its right.
There was some good stuff their, I bookmarked a page or two for my own reading later as they had recipes etc, you get over eating the same food every day.

haha yep, just eating

for me it will be the hardest thing so i thought id start while i couldnt do the weights. and yes, only minimal info but the recipes are nice

 

[driftking]

haha yep, just eating

for me it will be the hardest thing so i thought id start while i couldnt do the weights. and yes, only minimal info but the recipes are nice

yeah Im with you, I'm lean with a rocket metabolism, iv had to spend time forcing food in to get my body used to taking in the amount of food I need. still not sure how ill manage to get in all my calories I might have to opt for a small serving of a gainer just to get them in, ill avoid that though at all costs.
I just try to eat healthy to keep away from that visceral fat and try to limit the saturates too, I know some external fat wont be too bad given my body will drop it pretty easily. And I could do with some stores.

 

[shiznik]

Don't know if this has been emphathized but water is vital. Aim for 1lt in the first 2hrs of waking, and have a glass every 45min all day. Your muscles will perform noticibly better in my experience.

People talk about bulking and cutting, personally I think it's a bit of hype. If you avoid bad fats, are consistent with strength training, and ride your bike, you should see gains in lean mass.

Diet is for most the hardest yet most critical aspect of bodybuilding.

All the info you need is already on the net.

If you have the motivation sizable gains can be achieved from home,

check out; http://scoobysworkshop.com/

 

[Mattydv]

Don't know if this has been emphathized but water is vital. Aim for 1lt in the first 2hrs of waking, and have a glass every 45min all day. Your muscles will perform noticibly better in my experience.

Can you explain why?

 

[driftking]

Don't know if this has been emphathized but water is vital. Aim for 1lt in the first 2hrs of waking, and have a glass every 45min all day. Your muscles will perform noticibly better in my experience.

People talk about bulking and cutting, personally I think it's a bit of hype. If you avoid bad fats, are consistent with strength training, and ride your bike, you should see gains in lean mass.

Diet is for most the hardest yet most critical aspect of bodybuilding.

All the info you need is already on the net.

If you have the motivation sizable gains can be achieved from home,

check out; http://scoobysworkshop.com/

Be careful with suggesting water, what you prescribe is hitting around 6L a day not counting water in foods, there are situations where you might need that much but it can also be dangerous to take in too much water, generally the kidneys can process about a cup every hour. Body weight age and sex will also alter this number.

Now the cutting and bulking, its not a fad it's a simple way to explain a goal.
Bulk - gaining muscle mass with expected fat gain (this is keep minimal with a good diet control)
Cut -maintain muslce mass while droppig fat

Cut and bulk diets and routines will look different so really along with a basic way to explain a goal ts also a easy way to label a routine.

 

[shiznik]

Be careful with suggesting water, what you prescribe is hitting around 6L a day not counting water in foods, there are situations where you might need that much but it can also be dangerous to take in too much water, generally the kidneys can process about a cup every hour. Body weight age and sex will also alter this number.

Now the cutting and bulking, its not a fad it's a simple way to explain a goal.
Bulk - gaining muscle mass with expected fat gain (this is keep minimal with a good diet control)
Cut -maintain muslce mass while droppig fat

Cut and bulk diets and routines will look different so really along with a basic way to explain a goal ts also a easy way to label a routine.

Yeah maybe too much water for most, depends on your size. Just being properly hydrated is
vital.

Bulking and cutting, sure people do it, people also drop fat while adding lean mass. Personally I don't think its helpful advice, especially for a newbie.

What's your bulking cycle diet? and cutting?

Probably been said that proper form is important.

edit: Try chewing your food more, much more. Have a sip of water every few mouthfuls, helps with healthy digestion.

You may reach a point where gains plateu, mix it
up with lower weights, high reps, perfect form to failure (rather than just 8reps per set).
Do 3 rep sets with heavy weights. On your last sets, try raising the weight with assistance and lowering slowly a couple times after failure.

I am no expert / qualified don't really know much other than what has worked
for me.

Most important part, stick at it!

 

[driftking]

I don't have a cutting diet yet.
But generally Because you are trying to maintain size and drop fat the diet will drop your calorie surplus, depending on current protien you may increase that to help with maintaining lean mass. (although most already take too much protien in)

In terms of workouts, they turn from hytroperthy towards endurence,strength or power depending on goals. Endurence is popular as power and strength doesn't really prompt fat loss and really these probably require a higher calorie diet. Cardio also increases.
Chances are you will also be doing more isolation workouts.

Bulking and cutting diet calories are the biggest change, in bulk we are aiming for a constant anabolic body where during a cut we are aiming at maintains muscle while catabolising fat. These are two different and opposite body functions.

You can add muscle and drop fat but it is a much finer line and takes a little more control, you are yoyoing back and forth between anabolic and catabolic states in these situations and it is easier to screw up. You will find that it will be just as quick to bulk then cut.

You bring up good points too,
Using drop sets,burnout sets or strip sets will help activate the A2 fibers and prompt more growth, the use of supersets and mixing exercises up will help change the workout up.
You need to just make sure you are exerting the same over all volume on the muscles.

 

[clockworked]

just a personal anecdote about Jim Wendler's 531.

I love 531, it forms the basis of my training and i've had some good improvements from it.

there are two things to note though:
1. this is not a programme for beginners. it's not complex or anything, it just requires a decent base of strength training to really benefit from it. A simple rule of thumb; if you don't already have an idea of your 1RM for each of the 4 main exercises (within a few kilos) off the top of your head then you probably haven't been training purely for strength long enough for this programme to be of use.
that being said - don't be discouraged, it is a very rewarding programme and with 4-6 months of solid training under your belt it is great. It also requires a good level of form and flexibility to complete the lifts properly. I'm at 106kg/183cm, bench of 115, dead at 170 etc and i feel i've just reached a point that the i'm starting to suit the programme.

2. This is very much a program based on powerlifting, perodization and low reps. But he does say that the accessory lifts should be aiming mainly for 'muscle growth' and to try whatever body builders do to drive hypertrophy. This part is under-emphasised in the manual i think.
I spent a year (with a back injury stalling progress in the middle) following the general spirit of the programme, but its the last month that i started training with a committed body builder style partner that has really seen the most rapid gains. we sort of met halfway - i came only to build strength and he is all into drop sets and pyramids and other 'stupid beach shit'. I drive our 531 main lift training, and he takes over for accessories. And i think the absolute pursuit of hypertrophy in the accessory part of the work out has been driving big improvements, especially in the shoulder press.

anyway; thats my two cents worth.

as for the original poster: keep it simple. as the guys say: work for hypertrophy, work in the 4x8 ish range, and don't work the same groups on consecutive days, and make sure you're in, out and fucked within an hour.

 

[clance79]

I read some great advice off an amazing strength coach (Dan John) put simply most people are not strong enough for serious hypertrophy (without using illegal supplements- which I'm not condoning) now I don't know how old or how strong you are but IMO you should be able to deadlift double body weight squat 1.5 x body weight and bench at least bodyweight before worrying too much about hypertrophy. once again in my opinion you would probably do well to stick to something like a 5x5 format with compound exercises until your strength is sufficient to induce some good gains

 

[shirtz]

I read some great advice off an amazing strength coach (Dan John) put simply most people are not strong enough for serious hypertrophy (without using illegal supplements- which I'm not condoning) now I don't know how old or how strong you are but IMO you should be able to deadlift double body weight squat 1.5 x body weight and bench at least bodyweight before worrying too much about hypertrophy. once again in my opinion you would probably do well to stick to something like a 5x5 format with compound exercises until your strength is sufficient to induce some good gains

bit of an update from me. have put on 4kg and been hitting the gym for about a month. definatly getting stronger and i guess "bigger". going pretty light as i have back problems but by the looks of things i gotta keep pushing the heavy weight where i can. new aim is a healthy 85kg (currently 79, started at 74). will change up the program in the next few weeks and hit jim weilders 531 in a few months.

matt

 

[Macca99]

If you want to put on weight size you should be looking at lighter weights and less reps to begin with and eat 3 grams carbs and 3 grams protein per kilo of body weight. Google shortcut to size, his has complete training and nutrition information to put on weight, it uses something called micro cycles which will get you bigger and stronger. Good luck, 80% of the effort needed is in diet.