House of Lance getting shakey?
- Thread starter alchemist
- Start date
BUSHPIG
Likes Bikes and Dirt
BUSHPIG
Likes Bikes and Dirt
:l (10 char)
iscarrr
Likes Dirt
I know some will look at this as just more unproved allegations etc - but as far as im concerned, if Hincapie is saying he used stuff the game is over, its confirmed.
I've just got too much respect for Hincapie. If anyone was going to know what was going on behind the scenes all those years ago, it was him.
Presumably Lance will stick to the deny deny deny strategy, but boy this is going to get interesting. I'm sure there are millions out there looking down at their yellow Livestrong armband questioning the whole thing now. Of course there's no question over what he's done for cancer awareness, but this changes everything as far as im concerned.
I've just got too much respect for Hincapie. If anyone was going to know what was going on behind the scenes all those years ago, it was him.
Presumably Lance will stick to the deny deny deny strategy, but boy this is going to get interesting. I'm sure there are millions out there looking down at their yellow Livestrong armband questioning the whole thing now. Of course there's no question over what he's done for cancer awareness, but this changes everything as far as im concerned.
iscarrr
Likes Dirt
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
There is a problem when a governing body bans a substance that they cant test reliably for. If the substance really helps and is available it will be used by some - the necessary outcome of that, is that everyone ends up using it in order to keep up.
the competitors dont consider it cheating, they consider it stopping the cheaters from winning.
Drugs is sport is absolutely ubiquitous at the elite level - if they think they can get away with it, they do it. The people at elite level, arent there for the competition they are driven to win at any cost.
the competitors dont consider it cheating, they consider it stopping the cheaters from winning.
Drugs is sport is absolutely ubiquitous at the elite level - if they think they can get away with it, they do it. The people at elite level, arent there for the competition they are driven to win at any cost.
FR Drew
Not a custom title.
What bugs me is time and time again Lance goes public saying that he's never been caught or that he's never returned a positive test.
He never goes public saying that he never doped or used performance enhancing substances. Not once has he ever made that claim.
If he was clean as he likes to imply, it'd be a very simple claim to make, but time and time again, he doesn't. It's always "I've never returned a positive test" or "I've never been caught taking banned substances."
Given his long term refusal to deny using, I read more into what he's not saying rather than what he does say.
Pro cycling is rotten to the core, no one has any delusions otherwise. We're all sick of the BS.
He never goes public saying that he never doped or used performance enhancing substances. Not once has he ever made that claim.
If he was clean as he likes to imply, it'd be a very simple claim to make, but time and time again, he doesn't. It's always "I've never returned a positive test" or "I've never been caught taking banned substances."
Given his long term refusal to deny using, I read more into what he's not saying rather than what he does say.
Pro cycling is rotten to the core, no one has any delusions otherwise. We're all sick of the BS.
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
I'm not convinced cycling is different to any other sport. and it's not just at the pro level.
RCOH
Eats Squid
By "we", you mean "I" right?
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
The 60 minutes story is on Cyclingtips
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/05/tyler-hamilton-60-minutes-interview/
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/05/tyler-hamilton-60-minutes-interview/
At what point would you consider it proven? Would he have to confess... or would you be happy with a photo of him with an IV bag?
I'm interested to know the mindset of those who still believe.
I hear there a quite a few Tyler Hamilton 'BELIEVE' t-shirts going cheap if your looking for some chain rags...
BTW Lance has tested positive a number of times, he has just beaten the charges a number of times too.
Conjecture does not prove guilt (thank the lord for that!). For me, it's not about being a believer, all I can do his take his word. If he IS found guilty, then I no longer believe - simple. Believing/thinking someone is guilty of an offence doesn't make it true. That's what confessions and courts are for.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Maybe you should replace "he" simply with professional cycling?
lance amstrong as perhaps the most tested athlete of the time, is only a microcosm of the sport. if he was using epo and or whatever, then its almost a certainty that damn near everybody else was too (as the rumours suggest).
In all likelihood, using EPO wasnt cheating because you gained no advantage.
Once upon a time, drugs were banned because they had safety implications for athletes, now everything is banned unless approved (for the last 20 years or so anyway to my knowledge) - subtle but important difference.
Its more likely that the vast majority of professional athletes take stuff they shouldnt but cant be tested for, than that only a few do and win as a result. maybe its time to dump the law making approach, and manage it openly.
scblack
Leucocholic
I may be nit-picking, but sorry, courts are NOT about the truth actually. They are about following a legal process. Just because a matter is decided in a courtroom does not mean the "truth" was involved in any way - not necessarily.
Technicalities can let out guilty people. Plea bargains to entice a guilty plea to a lesser charge are common. And out-of-court setlements can stop actions before they even reach the court. These are COMMON events. Oh, and no one ever lies in a court room do they? Never ever.
Just because it was judged in a court does not necessarily mean it is TRUE.
Is it really that hard to believe that someone was just plain better? Of course it can't be that he just had a shed load of natural talent coupled with a strong work ethic, that can't be it. And we all know that going for an hour long run after a training ride while the rest of the team are getting massages does nothing for your fitness.
At the end of the day he is the most tested athlete in history. Period. Not just cycling, sport in general. That, along with the fact that he worked harder than anyone else gives him the benefit of the doubt in my mind.
Also Michael Schumacher was on drugs but isn't anymore, that's why he's losing. Vettel is definately on drugs, has to be, there's no way anyone can be that good without being on drugs. Usain Bolt is also a doper, no way in hell can you be faster than anyone else in history without taking drugs, thats just crazy talk.
Pizzaz
Likes Dirt
There is a third camp here though... I was a believer... but... the number of his contemporaries who've come out (so to speak) and all the various books / interviews etc etc etc all suggest that doping was (is?) endemic in the sport especially through the period that Lance was racing...Is it really that hard to believe that someone was just plain better? Of course it can't be that he just had a shed load of natural talent coupled with a strong work ethic, that can't be it. And we all know that going for an hour long run after a training ride while the rest of the team are getting massages does nothing for your fitness.
At the end of the day he is the most tested athlete in history. Period. Not just cycling, sport in general. That, along with the fact that he worked harder than anyone else gives him the benefit of the doubt in my mind.
Also Michael Schumacher was on drugs but isn't anymore, that's why he's losing. Vettel is definately on drugs, has to be, there's no way anyone can be that good without being on drugs. Usain Bolt is also a doper, no way in hell can you be faster than anyone else in history without taking drugs, thats just crazy talk.
As access to PEDs was pretty much universal its not like Lance was the only one... but he was still winning so maybe there's an argument to say that he was getting 'better' stuff than anyone else but still, PEDs or no PEDs... 7 wins on the trot is pretty impressive and some of that was due more to obsession with a single race and organising a team to win that single race in a way that just wasn't done to that level prior...
I still believe but given the general state of affairs in cycling at the time (and still?) the 'cleanliness' of the win doesn't bother me as much as it used to...
Actually there's a pretty good ethical argument for 'legalising' drug use based around that PEDs are one of the things that anyone (with the $$$) has access to whereas access to world class sports research facilities (e.g. the taxpayer funded AIS!) is not... (massively paraphrased...)
This is a pretty good read...