Lake Mountain Trail Modifications - OR - 'How to ruin an awesome trail'
- Thread starter petertronica
- Start date
Big JD
Wheel size expert
some thoughts
I think that we need to understand the management structure on the Mountain. How much money is recovered for the managing board from MTBing? What are the resources up there and how much time do those limited resourses have for trail design and maintance. Hand building trails take alot of manpower and time- diggers do it much quicker.
Dont get me wrong - I dislike this approach to trail building- but up there it is a private business that is struggling that doesnt have the funds or manpower.
Perhaps some working bees and manpower could help to limit the impact and develop / maintain what is so unique about the place.
Why dont we collaborate to assist them and inturn help ourselves.
Just some thoughts
I think that we need to understand the management structure on the Mountain. How much money is recovered for the managing board from MTBing? What are the resources up there and how much time do those limited resourses have for trail design and maintance. Hand building trails take alot of manpower and time- diggers do it much quicker.
Dont get me wrong - I dislike this approach to trail building- but up there it is a private business that is struggling that doesnt have the funds or manpower.
Perhaps some working bees and manpower could help to limit the impact and develop / maintain what is so unique about the place.
Why dont we collaborate to assist them and inturn help ourselves.
Just some thoughts
Thanks for your interest Peter, sorry for the delay in a reply I have been away. Its a shame that we have not had more interest/feedback to get an indication of what style of trail your preference is before now.
For the past couple of years ALL that we have heard is that our trails are too hard, too rocky, not fun, not enough flow, does not suit the average rider so will not grow as a venue and should be more like Buxton (which I do not agree with).
The fact of the matter is that we have been under pressure to change all trails for some time, here are some points why we are doing this:
~We have to have better emergency access to some of these remote areas, not sure if you know how difficult it is to carry an injured rider out of this area
~Maintenance has been an ever increasing cost, this trail was put in by hand in a hurry but increasingly needed work. We do not have the post-fire labour force we once (25 down to 5 in 2013) had we must do work with more efficiency, meaning machinery and quad bikes.
~The descent in question on No7 is about 500m long and always had issues, berms did not have grade reversals, a long narrow rut had developed below grass root level because water shedding was poor, 6 of the 8 berms were constructed with treated pine timber & star pickets (hardly natural features)- now removed, there were no jumps (a treated pine one was removed in 2011), the most technical rock is in the first 500m and is untouched.
~IMBA guidelines are very general but Trail Solutions etc. are a good resource, yes we are quite aware of information available and other builders like World Trail & Dirt Art use machines then let the trail evolve
~You road & judged the trail literally a day after the machine was removed - soft & dusty, not raked and without anchors (features that dictate ride line or slow riders), it needs time to bed in, yes the berms are too big but will be much different when they settle and are grassy
~The justification to continue with bike trails for the powers that be is getting more difficult as the maintenance grows and the economic benefits from this visitation is minimal. We need to reach a tipping point of having enough trails for riders to ride longer and return for more visits. For several years I have been battling to get approved the LM2M project and further progress will continue in the coming months.
~The other trail you talk of is No.6, a 2.5km easier trail that was ruined when it was converted to an ATV tours track and became an eroded mess. I'm making efforts to improve this and maybe more fun to ride
~Mountain bikers can help improve the viability/sustainability of their sport in many ways; apart from buying the odd coffee at the café, riders could engage more to give feedback/direction of the trails, volunteer to help with maintenance issues, write letters of support or lobby to help improve the sport and assist approvals. At this stage tobogganers and music festival hippies (paying customers) are subsidising the mtb trails so we need ways to show our bosses that mountain biking deserves to be supported and improved
Keep in touch
Andrew
For the past couple of years ALL that we have heard is that our trails are too hard, too rocky, not fun, not enough flow, does not suit the average rider so will not grow as a venue and should be more like Buxton (which I do not agree with).
The fact of the matter is that we have been under pressure to change all trails for some time, here are some points why we are doing this:
~We have to have better emergency access to some of these remote areas, not sure if you know how difficult it is to carry an injured rider out of this area
~Maintenance has been an ever increasing cost, this trail was put in by hand in a hurry but increasingly needed work. We do not have the post-fire labour force we once (25 down to 5 in 2013) had we must do work with more efficiency, meaning machinery and quad bikes.
~The descent in question on No7 is about 500m long and always had issues, berms did not have grade reversals, a long narrow rut had developed below grass root level because water shedding was poor, 6 of the 8 berms were constructed with treated pine timber & star pickets (hardly natural features)- now removed, there were no jumps (a treated pine one was removed in 2011), the most technical rock is in the first 500m and is untouched.
~IMBA guidelines are very general but Trail Solutions etc. are a good resource, yes we are quite aware of information available and other builders like World Trail & Dirt Art use machines then let the trail evolve
~You road & judged the trail literally a day after the machine was removed - soft & dusty, not raked and without anchors (features that dictate ride line or slow riders), it needs time to bed in, yes the berms are too big but will be much different when they settle and are grassy
~The justification to continue with bike trails for the powers that be is getting more difficult as the maintenance grows and the economic benefits from this visitation is minimal. We need to reach a tipping point of having enough trails for riders to ride longer and return for more visits. For several years I have been battling to get approved the LM2M project and further progress will continue in the coming months.
~The other trail you talk of is No.6, a 2.5km easier trail that was ruined when it was converted to an ATV tours track and became an eroded mess. I'm making efforts to improve this and maybe more fun to ride
~Mountain bikers can help improve the viability/sustainability of their sport in many ways; apart from buying the odd coffee at the café, riders could engage more to give feedback/direction of the trails, volunteer to help with maintenance issues, write letters of support or lobby to help improve the sport and assist approvals. At this stage tobogganers and music festival hippies (paying customers) are subsidising the mtb trails so we need ways to show our bosses that mountain biking deserves to be supported and improved
Keep in touch
Andrew
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petertronica
Likes Dirt
I hear what you're saying John, but I wonder if the cause of these modifications is the fact that LM management didn't realise that so many people really liked the trail as it was. So they've set about modifying it how they think the majority of users want it modified.
I'm hoping that, once they answer my email, we might be able to engage in some constructive discussions and be able to preserve the character of the place. Just hope they respond before they've driven the digger up the rest of the trails.
Working bees to create new trails aren't needed - the trails are already there. And they clearly already have an excavator to make new trails, they just need to be encouraged to steer it down different trails and keep off the blue and black trails.
I'm hoping that, once they answer my email, we might be able to engage in some constructive discussions and be able to preserve the character of the place. Just hope they respond before they've driven the digger up the rest of the trails.
Working bees to create new trails aren't needed - the trails are already there. And they clearly already have an excavator to make new trails, they just need to be encouraged to steer it down different trails and keep off the blue and black trails.
gnarly_rider
Likes Dirt
Aye, I'd suggest italicizing your quote of Peter's and perhaps even reduce its font size, to separate it from the LM response.
I've had a bad computer morning, time to hit the trails with the rackhoe
Big JD
Wheel size expert
thanks for responding Andrew
at the end of the day- you could do with some help from the mtbing community
MTBing community- what you got??
petertronica
Likes Dirt
Thanks for your reply Andrew. I take it from your post that the rest of the blue trail will not be modified in the same way, which I'm very heartened to hear.
I’m not questioning the feedback you’ve received, but I do wonder who it was provided by. Beginners/intermediates/experts? I struggle to believe that any experienced mountain biker would say it has no flow, that’s complete rubbish. Or would say that it’s too hard. Are they referring to the specific section of the blue trail that’s been modified? Can I ask if putting in B-lines was not considered as an option, as there are some already on the black trail?
I provided verbal feedback to a staff member a few months ago (maybe you??) that I thought the trails were excellent as is – should I have put this in writing? I’m sure we could find a decent number of RB users who want more difficult/technical trails, and would travel to Lake Mountain if they knew the trails were there.
I'm sure the Granite Grind xc race is great, but perhaps the feedback you're getting from these riders is that (some? most?) xc racers don't want to race on a trail like this. I don't race xc, so I would never come the Lake Mountain to race the Granite Grind, so perhaps this is the wrong subset of riders to target? I wouldn't have been drawn here by the race, nor by your website - I purely heard about it through word of mouth. Is the Granite Grind xc race the main way you advertise your trails? If anything, the fact that there's an xc race put me off visiting a little - I assumed it would be another Buxton. How wrong I was!
I understand that you're under pressure to increase visitation – as I mentioned earlier, it could easily become the ideal place for a gravity enduro race. You have the elevation and the natural features..
Just FWIW, there are an awful lot of riders in the same boat as me:
- used to ride a lot of downhill when younger
- now have family and young kids, no time to spend the whole weekend shuttling the DH bike in a ute anymore, but still have half a day here and there to ride
- sold the DH bike and bought a 120mm-160mm trail bike/all mountain bike
- bikes have evolved a LOT - can now ride mini-dh trails on new bike and pedal back up no probs.
- love riding trails like Lake Mountain. Probably wouldn’t bother much with any trails like Epic, or Buxton (unless I feel like sessioning some jumps).
Happy to chat off-line if you're interested, drop me a pm. Cheers.
I’m not questioning the feedback you’ve received, but I do wonder who it was provided by. Beginners/intermediates/experts? I struggle to believe that any experienced mountain biker would say it has no flow, that’s complete rubbish. Or would say that it’s too hard. Are they referring to the specific section of the blue trail that’s been modified? Can I ask if putting in B-lines was not considered as an option, as there are some already on the black trail?
I provided verbal feedback to a staff member a few months ago (maybe you??) that I thought the trails were excellent as is – should I have put this in writing? I’m sure we could find a decent number of RB users who want more difficult/technical trails, and would travel to Lake Mountain if they knew the trails were there.
I'm sure the Granite Grind xc race is great, but perhaps the feedback you're getting from these riders is that (some? most?) xc racers don't want to race on a trail like this. I don't race xc, so I would never come the Lake Mountain to race the Granite Grind, so perhaps this is the wrong subset of riders to target? I wouldn't have been drawn here by the race, nor by your website - I purely heard about it through word of mouth. Is the Granite Grind xc race the main way you advertise your trails? If anything, the fact that there's an xc race put me off visiting a little - I assumed it would be another Buxton. How wrong I was!
I understand that you're under pressure to increase visitation – as I mentioned earlier, it could easily become the ideal place for a gravity enduro race. You have the elevation and the natural features..
Just FWIW, there are an awful lot of riders in the same boat as me:
- used to ride a lot of downhill when younger
- now have family and young kids, no time to spend the whole weekend shuttling the DH bike in a ute anymore, but still have half a day here and there to ride
- sold the DH bike and bought a 120mm-160mm trail bike/all mountain bike
- bikes have evolved a LOT - can now ride mini-dh trails on new bike and pedal back up no probs.
- love riding trails like Lake Mountain. Probably wouldn’t bother much with any trails like Epic, or Buxton (unless I feel like sessioning some jumps).
Happy to chat off-line if you're interested, drop me a pm. Cheers.
petertronica
Likes Dirt
Maybe we could start a petition to get the extension built down to the ticket box? And built in a style/manner that keeps everyone happy? I.e. is a bit tricky but has nice easy b-lines for the beginners?
OCD'R
Likes Dirt
There's your first problem Peter!
Big JD
Wheel size expert
Great idea Peter. Let put a template/ petition together we can send through to Andrew to pass on to help / and assist them to get what we would like.
We might also need to put up some time or funds to make it happen
I would also accept a user pays structure- pay at the ticket gates
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Big JD
Wheel size expert
The letters need to be specific as to the type of trails / experience one wants.
And everyone wants something different
petertronica
Likes Dirt
petertronica
Likes Dirt
Sounds good, I'm in. I've got a friend who works in local government who might be able to help with the petition. Maybe Andrew can give us some input there too?
User pays structures are notoriously difficult to implement...anyone know how other places such as the youies are going with that? Isn't paying still voluntary there?
User pays structures are notoriously difficult to implement...anyone know how other places such as the youies are going with that? Isn't paying still voluntary there?
Big JD
Wheel size expert
Yes it is voluntary Pete, perhaps we can get some sort of idea of revenue from Youies crew. Can't imagine it is much.
LM there is one way in and out- better suited to collecting funds. Just another thought
Ridenparadise
Likes Bikes and Dirt
You got that gem from IMBA right? How about cows to make the trail "organically"?
Big JD
Wheel size expert
cows make great trails- I think the new Labor government has stopped livestock in the high country- should see if they left any ST up there.