VIC Lysterfield Park

ando_assi

Likes Dirt
I agree with most of what you are saying wisey, but I don't want to be the trail building crew, but no one else does it so i help because no one else does... I would love to have the ability to put in what ever i wanted, where ever i wanted it (did u know there are the ability to have DH tracks with over 150 vertical meters)... but everything has to approved by parks Vic, and is directed by trailmix so i just show up on trail days.
I have riden canberra, adelaide and most legal trail sites in Au and Nz, and i agree that the standard of lysterfield trails is not good, but at the moment it seems like the MTB community is happy with them because no one is turning up to trail days... so we are consantly just trying to repair them half arsed (as i dont want to spend all my riding time, on shovels) any time we hassle for new tracks they just say put a reroute here... or do the drainage there.
If there were more people at these trail days it may show to the park Vic guys that there is interest in better tracks.
I would also like to bet that if Youies had the same number of people ride 1 track like they do at lysty it would not fair too well either!!!

I would be stoked if somebody with good trail building experience gave trail mix a call and offered there services to help with the planing and repair of these trails
 

Puddleduck

Likes Dirt
Agree with Wisey. As far as trail building goes there is enough literature out there for guidance and some good trails being put down, ie You Yangs. So from reading the thread my understanding is that the people running Trail Mix are in charge of the trail maintenance at Lysterfield.
 

Wisey

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I agree with most of what you are saying wisey, but I don't want to be the trail building crew, but no one else does it so i help because no one else does... I would love to have the ability to put in what ever i wanted, where ever i wanted it (did u know there are the ability to have DH tracks with over 150 vertical meters)... but everything has to approved by parks Vic, and is directed by trailmix so i just show up on trail days.
You miss the point, I'm not talking about making new trails and features, I'm talking purely about building it right the first time so it is sustainable, flowy and fun. The way I approach trail building is basically we build in winter and ride in summer, to often too wet in winter to ride and way to hot in summer to swing a matic.

I have riden canberra, adelaide and most legal trail sites in Au and Nz, and i agree that the standard of lysterfield trails is not good, but at the moment it seems like the MTB community is happy with them because no one is turning up to trail days... so we are consantly just trying to repair them half arsed (as i dont want to spend all my riding time, on shovels) any time we hassle for new tracks they just say put a reroute here... or do the drainage there.
Who's happy with them? We have no choice. Why do it half arsed? What purpose does it serve except to make more work in the long run. Build it right the first time.

If there were more people at these trail days it may show to the park Vic guys that there is interest in better tracks.
Build better trails and more people will visit that park to ride MTB, that will make Parks Vic sit up and take notice, not the other way around.

I would also like to bet that if Youies had the same number of people ride 1 track like they do at lysty it would not fair too well either!!!.
At a guess, Youies is just as busy as Lysty. Next time you're out there (Youies), take the time to look at how they build and the small details they include in their work. IE proper bench cuts, drainage, rock armoring etc...

I would be stoked if somebody with good trail building experience gave trail mix a call and offered there services to help with the planing and repair of these trails
Once agin, there is an amazing amount of literature around that will give you a good understanding of how to build sustainable, fun trails. Read up. It's not hard.

I'm not having a dig at you bro, you just seem to be defending what happens out there.
 

ando_assi

Likes Dirt
o.k I'm not defending the trails at Lysty, they are not good, but i am defending the small crew who goes out there monthly and tries to do the work!

We inherited the tracks, they were built years ago. I am constantly frustrated by reading about Lysterfield and all the crap that is given to it when we cannot even keep up with trying to keep it ride able.

Youies has the permision (dare i say budget) to have many different loops, where as Lysterfield only has the 2 legal ones, if you put the number (and quality) of riders that go down buckle trail on the one trail lets say cressy's it too would be wrecked quickly.

I think YOU have missed the point, I am doing my best at Lysterfield because i live close like many other riders... It irrates me that you say "go look at places like the youies..." No shit... If it was upto me i would get World trail to build it like stromlo did. I dont make the decisions. the Rangers say there isn't the demand, so the only way forward is to GO TO TRAIL REPAIR DAYS!!!

What annoys me more than that is people like yourself, that seem to know everything, work every else, yet Lyterfield which has a crazy amount of people that live in the area, has great hills, has an amazing amount of regular riders that turn up more than once a week, gets only 5 people to trail days!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm fairly new to actually trying to get stuff done (i've turned up to Lysty trail days for nearly 2 years) but have recently tried to pressure the right people to get stuff done at lyterfield, and i have read nothing on any of your post that is constructive....
 

Wisey

Likes Bikes and Dirt
OK, I have no doubt the people in charge of maintaining the trail network have the best intentions, it's hard to constantly find the time to get out there with tools in hand. They just need to read up and change the way they build, piece by piece. Trails will need less maintenance in the long run if built properly in the first place.
 
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retroenduro

Likes Dirt
Share the knowledge people

just an idea but how about you guys share the knowledge?

You guys from Lysterfield spend a day with the Youies crew on their trails helping and learning new techniques from them etc

then maybe some of te Youies crew can come to you one trail building day to help and assess what can be done at the Lysterfield trails. :)
 

trav

Likes Dirt
Just want let ando_assi and everyone eles know that the You Yangs has no budget for trail works and all Labour is supplied free, the same crew that supply this labour also run the Shuttle Service to cover cost .I can also guarantee all the trails get just as much if not more traffic than Lysty and do not deteriorate.

I think you will find that Lysterfield has a budget ,the problem out there is Parks don't know when to step in and say"you blokes have no idea" go away.
I can see things out there changing sooner rather than later, it's starting to get out of hand.

I have offered before and still will for anyone involved at lysterfield to come to the You Yangs learn some thing about trail building,no one has yet.If some one gets me a purchase order i will even spend time there.
 

monc

Likes Dirt
I totally agree Wisey.

I have been put off attending trail days there as I really don't enjoy riding the bit of track that was created the day I helped (very selfish way of looking at it I know - but the main motivation for a lot of volunteers is creating something they enjoy riding :rolleyes:)

In regard to the rocky raised narrow pile of dirt track, apparently the idea of a boardwalk had been raised (this area turns into a quagmire) but Parks wasn't interested.
 

Oldas

Likes Dirt
Brad and the crew need to read all they can (see the trail maintenance thread stickys here) and put it too use.

Just my $0.02
I have attended many working bee's at Lysterfield but am not in charge of the work. The new trail sections and workings were and are all directed by Trailmix.


We have to do something about the existing trails first before we can put in anything new (and they have to be family friendly), but with only 4 volenteers we can only get very little done!
This is an excellent point. The trouble is that the complete opposite has happened. New trails have been put in while the existing ones continue to deteriorate. Rather than fix the existing ones new trails are built around the old ones and then there is a new mess.

Family friendly, I assume you refer to the Lake track..

I'm consantly harrasing trailmix and parksVic for new trails i have many great ideas
The new trails idea needs to stop. No new trails! Do you want more of a mess to clean up? A plan need's to be drawn up on how to fix the problem.


Who ever has been changing the route of the blair witch trail back and fourth I hope you're happy with the complete pig stye you've created, what a joke and for what reason?
That Pig style you refer to is a complete mess you are right.I was part of the crew who built the original extra track. How could you possibly think I or anyone else who helped that day could be happy with the result? It again is a reflection of the process. The workers do as asked but are not educated in Trail building so if you have something to say best you take it up with the people who make the decisions and not the workers.

There are so many trails at Lysterfield, if you are in the know! The tracks I speak of are right under your nose, even the animals use them.
The only difference between animals and weekend warriors is I give way to animals...
These trails are no secret, are not used only by a secret society formed in 1952. They are used by more people than you think.
But this is one of the biggest problems that Trailmix face when dealing with Park's. People blasting down these trails that are either for walkers only or for Animals only. Do you have any idea how much Parks hate people riding on non permitted trails? The more it happens the harder they make it for new trail development..

How considerate of you to give way to animals but not weekend warriors. Should make you a popular boy with the shovel wielding guys at the next trail build day. You will be there right? :rolleyes:


If there were more people at these trail days it may show to the park Vic guys that there is interest in better tracks.
Interest in better tracks. What about interest in the quality and safety of the current ones? They only need take a look in the car park on a weekend to see the interest in the trails. Look at the numbers of people who stream into that place every weekend. They have a responsibility. The numbers alone warrant proper trail management. Not a few drainage points and a re route FFS.

I would also like to bet that if Youies had the same number of people ride 1 track like they do at lysty it would not fair too well either!!!
I am amazed at how those tracks hold up considering the numbers that hammer them. I am not educated in trail building, but surely it is a reflection on the designers and maintenance crews trail knowledge. I'm feeling a theme here.

I would be stoked if somebody with good trail building experience gave trail mix a call and offered there services to help with the planing and repair of these trails
It's been offered Andy.. If the current organisers say they are doing a good job and have Parks convinced this is the case are they really going to accept outside help. It would require accepting that what your doing is not working and that you don't know how to fix it.

Trail mix gets there directions from parks Vic, who are reluctant to do anything!
They may have been reluctant to do anything thus far, but at some point both Parks and Trailmix will have to do something. That park is visited by thousands of Families and Kids every year. Come on...

o.k I'm not defending the trails at Lysty, they are not good, but i am defending the small crew who goes out there monthly and tries to do the work!
No one is arguing you on this mate. The people who turn up regularly, which is your group, are the ones who do the work. I know it, you know it and Trailmix knows it. If it were not for YOUR group then I doubt anything would get done.

It's clear. The problem is not the workers. .

I dont make the decisions. the Rangers say there isn't the demand
The Ranger's said this to you did they :rolleyes: Tell them to open their eyes and take a look at the car park on the weekends. What do they consider demand? Most weekends in summer you can't get a car park. Ridiculous.


Honestly, this is beyond the joke.

I recently took someone who is very new to mountain biking to the You Yangs. Before this they had only ever ridden Lysterfield. They could not believe the difference.

The reason they liked You Yangs better was because they felt safer. They could see the trails ahead, they did not have to deal with massive erosion and tree roots, fallen trees, ruts and the list goes on. This is a credit to the people/persons who run the show there..

The same can be said for Forrest. Every time I have been there it has been of excellent quality. Super fun and super safe!

I myself were part of the crew that created the mess on Hug and did allot of work on the raised rock section on Red Gum. Don't you think I myself look back and think " what the fuck did we do". But before anyone opens their mouth on me or anyone else who helped make things worse why don't you instead pick up the phone and call Trailmix and direct your opinions,comment's and suggestions to the people who make the decisions(Snozz and Rob). Better yet, grab some balls from your GF and go down to a Trail build day and have your say in person. Take your keyboard if it will help..

I do not feel guilty for helping create what is now a mess. Why? Because I got off my ass, picked up a shovel and sacrificed weekends to try and make a difference. I didn't sit on a forum bitching about it. And furthermore, I was instructed to do the work that I did, at the time I had no idea what it would become as I am not educated in Trail building. I was purely there to help like Andrew and the others. The trouble is now it is at the point where it needs real attention.

This thread has highlighted a problem which will hopefully force a change. One of 2 things need to happen. The current people running the show need to accept help from people with proper experience or Park's need to hand it over to someone else before the place gets completely destroyed..

The people who should be answering your questions, until this point, obviously don't want to be part of a public discussion. But at least you can be sure they are reading it.

Dons Flame suit.......


Brad
 

ando_assi

Likes Dirt
you are right Brad,

I just get sick of "experts"

Because the 2 areas we are talking about you will remember people turned up who are self proclaimed experts, and through my vocal complaining continued to stuff it up royally (do you remember everyone dismissing me saying i just want "free ride tracks?").

The only area i feel responsible for not doing well is the reroute on buckle trail done most recently, and only because it hasn't handled the rain well.

I believe we have done quite a few things well. The reroute done about 1 1/2 years ago on middle is really cool, the drainage on middle has stood up unbelievably well this year.

Although i have to argue 2 points

1.
I want more technical tracks, as you know i'm not into racing, i ride a big 6" AM bike, and we go looking for things to use it on, and there is nothing legally there that get me worried at all (no legal progression). If there were new tracks it would take some of the load of the main trail. More interesting tracks would lead to progression in the sport, attract a wider array of riders, any time i take newbies to lysty it is all about bike fitness (read not fun), there should be fun bits!

2. At the moment i am mostly about trying to get things done legaly (through Robs plees to stop us going out and building illegal tracks on mass)
but when i read about the origins of how allot of areas got there good MTB trails centers it is due to the fact there was so many illegal tracks that it was easier to get on board then fight them.

I'm just trying to do what i can for Lysty as it is close, I've recently been to SA & ACT where it blew me away how good there trails are (Mitchem, Eagles, stromlo... ect.ect) and i'm sick of traveling to youies (as its a 1 1/2 hour drive)

Even though i sound defensive i think it is good there is discussion on forums like this about Lysty, because hopefully i get people to go to trailmix and complain about how bad it is, maybe even start doing something about it (anything is better than what is going on currently)... (it can only be good:)) I might be reacting like this because want it so bad!!!
 

Oldas

Likes Dirt
Even though i sound defensive i think it is good there is discussion on forums like this about Lysty, because hopefully i get people to go to trailmix and complain about how bad it is, maybe even start doing something about it (anything is better than what is going on currently)... (it can only be good:)) I might be reacting like this because want it so bad!!!

Hi Andy

I know you love your riding and I support your enthusiasm. I know many clubs would love to have people with your passion and work ethic. :)

I don't know that there are many 'experts'. I imagine trail building to be something of a trade. Perhaps something you can only learn properly from spending lots of hands on time with a professional trail builder. Also reading, researching, working with the land correctly, drainage, sustainability and so on. I'm sure there is allot to learn if you are serious about it. I don't know.

Keep on truckin ;)
 

SouthYarraSage

Likes Dirt
Andy,

I'm trying to piece together what's going on in the background here - reading between the lines, are you suggesting that the Trailmix people who oversee the trail building and liaise with Parks Vic either:
- Getting it wrong in how to build - that is, aren't directing the volunteers sufficiently in building sustainable tracks?
- Getting it wrong in what to build - that is, directing volunteers to build tracks that aren't that interesting?
- Not listening to input / concerns / suggestions from the volunteers who build the trails?

They are stand-up guys and girls at Trailmix, no mistake - but a few of the posts so far seem to hint that some of the problems originate there. If that's the case, then you might as well say so clearly.

If not, I'm very happy for you to straighten me out.
 

ando_assi

Likes Dirt
G'day,

Personly i think that the guys @ trailmix are doing there best but,

My understanding (please correct me if i am wrong)

They have meeting with parks vic, and get asked to fix individual problems where;
they:
- Getting it wrong in how to build - that is, aren't directing the volunteers sufficiently in building sustainable tracks?
- Getting it wrong in what to build - that is, directing volunteers to build tracks that aren't that interesting?
- Not listening to input / concerns / suggestions from the volunteers who build the trails?
I don't think it is trailmix's fault, i think the fault lies in the lack of an overall MTB plan, which would identify the needs of the MTB community and an action plan in the future to get this done. If you look on the parkvic web site, Lysterfields actual management plan is very out of date and been renewed for another 5 years as of may 2009 see link http://www.parkweb.vic.gov.au/resources07/07_0168.pdf. It doesn't actually list the majority of the MTB network.

I think there is opposition to upgrade to MTB facilities by the parkVic people, when i e-mail ParkVic they refer me to trailmix who i constantly bug about these things. I have offered my services to aid in anyway to create something similar to the plan Mitcham has.

I have e-mailed Parks Victoria attempting to see any sort of MTB plan for the area and nothing is forthcoming! (they must have something as they are a government organization, and one would have to be created from the time of the 2006 comm games) If any one knows how i could see it, that would be invaluable (i have spent hours searching)

Trailmix has been very helpful, and has at least tried to organize regular trail days witch was organized previously by somebody through the yahoo group.

I have been told since the creation of trailmix to hold my horses, something is happening, so i can just keep hassling, turn up to trail days, and offer any services i can!
 

Wisey

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Well said Brad, good on you for standing up.

Andy, there is already a hell of a lot of track out there, the place doesn't need more trails, you need to get that out of your head. By going back to the start of every trail and re-working your way through you can make new features, improvements and upgrades to the existing network. Building things like sweeping berms (lets face it who doesn't like to ride them?) chokes, proper out slopes, little hits and gaps, some slight rerouting here and there, a few strategically placed rocks and what ever else the terrain offers as well as a good clean up to EVERY trail that is there already would do wonders. By making the trail ride better, faster, flowier and just more fun it can take a tame trail from boring to an absolute hoot and still be sustainable.

"Freeride" tracks are just not parsay, they're too hard to manage in an area like Lysterfield where beginers ride regularly and which is predominantly XC based. By making exhisting tracks more interesting it takes it up another whole level and you should be able to push your 6" bike to it's limits and besides, getting of the brakes and riding faster through corners and hitting obsticles wide open is enough to get anyones ticker going really....

In regards to the rock path crap, why not re-route the section away from the bog? Bring the track in/back 100m further up the road? Makes so much more sense than building what is there, no logic.
 

ando_assi

Likes Dirt
I can also guarantee all the trails get just as much if not more traffic than Lysty and do not deteriorate.
WTF?
If Youies had half the number of people going down one trail that Hug trail does it would not last 8 weeks!!!! Don't get me wrong, I think that the Youies is a really fun place to ride, but it is not fair to compare the areas and the people that go there. If we had anything like you do there in terms of technical difficulty, it would be shut down within a week because people would DIE!!!!

Wisey, Parks Victoria got an independent contractor to lay all those rocks, we just tried to make it ridable, maybe if people actual ride it it may settle down and become OK - and, at least now in winter you are not up to your disks in water!!!

Lysterfield is on actual dirt unlike the Youies, so it is not a really fair comparison. There are areas of Lysterfield that when it rains is going to get really soft no matter what you do.

I believe I can help build good tracks given the time, and the correct amount of leeway from Parks Vic!!

"Freeride" tracks are just not parsay, they're too hard to manage in an area like Lysterfield where beginers ride regularly and which is predominantly XC based. By making exhisting tracks more interesting it takes it up another whole level and you should be able to push your 6" bike to it's limits and besides, getting of the brakes and riding faster through corners and hitting obsticles wide open is enough to get anyones ticker going really.....
I am not after "free ride" track, I was pointing out to Brad how dangerous "experts" are, and reminding him of a particular instance! I'm after (quite selfishly) some blue and black runs - the tracks that are there need to be green runs!

And there are only 22 kms of legal single track at Lysty, comprising 2 loops (main loop) and the CG Loop. The main loop can't have anything that is even close to technical because of the number of newbies that go there (I see kids as young as 5 on 20inch bikes). If there is anything at all interesting on these tracks, people are bound to severely hurt themselves (examples of this being the four or five broken collarbones on the little jump in Blair Witch within a three week period, and the guy who broke his back on the rollover at the CGT end of Red Gum - both obstacles now removed by Parks Vic). Thus demonstrating the need for extra loops that have more technical sections through them, and that are signed accordingly (just look at the majority of the illegal tracks - they have all the big rock rolls, jumps ect. ect., shows an obvious need).

In many areas throughout the park, it is not an option to just clean it up as there are so many people that ride it, when we put a choke in it just get demolished and then the track ends up being 2 metres wide, eg. Buckle Trail.

Yes, the existing trails at Lysterfield need work. For example, it'd be great to have some boardwalks put in around the muddy areas instead of just re-routing to another area, which will inevitably suffer the same fate (i.e. boggy mess).

However, there is still a need for new trails to cater for the riders that have been there for years and put in - not only to ensure families can still have a safe and fun place to bring their kids while also providing for more advanced riders, but also to stop illegal trails being built in the greater Dandenong region (Yarra Ranges National Park ring a bell?) - Does this not highlight the critical need for more technical trails in the area?? What shits me most is the lack of interest in doing the work as opposed to talking it up on a forum.

Look forward to seeing you at the next trail day - 10:00am at Trailmix on the 31st of October!
 

trav

Likes Dirt
ando_assi your last comments on the You Yangs just confirms to me that you are in no position to pass judgment on any trail issues,you are clearly clueless.

I stand buy all the work that myself and the rest of the trail crew carry out.As much as you will probally disagree the You Yangs has just as many if not more riders over the trails with no effect on trail conditions and visitation increasing as Lysty trails go to shit.
 

Cranker

Likes Dirt
I stand buy all the work that myself and the rest of the trail crew carry out.As much as you will probally disagree the You Yangs has just as many if not more riders over the trails with no effect on trail conditions and visitation increasing as Lysty trails go to shit.

Trav, how many people help to maintain You Yangs?

Do you frequently ride at Lysterfield, or just at You Yangs?

IMO, You Yangs is simply bigger and has more tracks to choose from.
Where Lysterfield have only one main loop to ride on.
And the other thing, we can't really compare the terrain of You Yangs to Lysterfield.
Lysterfield is quiet flat in most areas of the trail and and it doesn't take much rain to turn the soil into mud. So unless they can can close down part of the trail during winter, then I can't see how the tracks can recover from overused. No matter how well designed the trails are!!
 
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