Middle East situation

[fastrider gus]

Where is the evidence that the beheadings and rapings took place.
There is evidence that Israeli forces fired upon Kibbutz houses that had Israeli civilians sheltering inside.

Have you seen the raw footage of Oct 7th on telegram? If not, maybe you should delve into that a little bit.


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[LPG]

The IDF are being held to a ridiculous standard, war is hell and unfortunately the main victims are always civilians. Throughout history all conflicts have absolutely smashed civilians, it's unavoidable unless opposing forces go back to forming an orderly line in a field and taking their turns firing at each other.
The IDF has the ability to completely level Gaza, but they are methodical entering areas on the ground and putting their personnel in direct danger in order to minimise collateral damage. Never in history has there been a running tally of casualties in the midst of a war (neither has there been one where a force is expected to fully support the opposing sides civilians in every aspect of their lives, does so and is simultaneously criticised for the lack of doing so), and for some reason the bulk of media are quite happy to quote Hamas's numbers. Even after hamas has directly admitted to over 12,000 false reports.
The IDF are against a force that invented suicide bomb vests, indoctrinate every generation that there is no greater honor than to kill a jew and martyrdom is their soul purpose.
Hamas don't have the same moral values as us in the west and they have weaponized our empathy for "innocent life". Quite an effective tool.

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Not committing war crimes is the only standard I really care about nomatter whether the terrorists they are fighting do the same or not.

 

[Halo1]

I'm shocked that Police forces around the world don't simply throw grenades into a building rather than going through complex hostage negotiations. I mean it's ok for the Israelis to do so.

Like in Waco texas? a bit messy but gets the job done.

 

[ForkinGreat]

The IDF are being held to a ridiculous standard, war is hell and unfortunately the main victims are always civilians. Throughout history all conflicts have absolutely smashed civilians, it's unavoidable unless opposing forces go back to forming an orderly line in a field and taking their turns firing at each other.
The IDF has the ability to completely level Gaza, but they are methodical entering areas on the ground and putting their personnel in direct danger in order to minimise collateral damage. Never in history has there been a running tally of casualties in the midst of a war (neither has there been one where a force is expected to fully support the opposing sides civilians in every aspect of their lives, does so and is simultaneously criticised for the lack of doing so), and for some reason the bulk of media are quite happy to quote Hamas's numbers. Even after hamas has directly admitted to over 12,000 false reports.
The IDF are against a force that invented suicide bomb vests, indoctrinate every generation that there is no greater honor than to kill a jew and martyrdom is their soul purpose.
Hamas don't have the same moral values as us in the west and they have weaponized our empathy for "innocent life". Quite an effective tool.

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I see a lot of Israel/IDF talking points there.
A whole bunch of ridiculous assertions.
No-one is claiming Hamas are the 'good guys', But the IDF and Israeli government are certainly not.
The Israelis Allowed Qatari funding of Hamas to continue, because apparently Hamas were easier to demonize as the enemy.
Provide some evidence for your assertions. All you do is tell me to "do your own research". At least try to show me, beyond unsubstaniated assertions.

The Israelis have made their intentions crystal clear and they are following through with them.
Dehumanizing the Palestinians and an overwhelming lust for Massive and ongoing Retaliation.

Here's what Israeli ministers want to do to Gaza – if they can get Palestinians to leave

Several Israeli ministers spoke at a conference promoting resettling Gaza while attendees chanted 'death to Arabs'

www.middleeasteye.net

The incendiary rhetoric deployed by Israeli leaders

Israeli leaders have referred to Palestinians as beasts and called for a second Nakba, the reoccupation of Gaza and the use of nuclear weapons

www.middleeasteye.net

‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel (Published 2023)

Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing ideas like the killing of civilians and mass deportations.

www.nytimes.com

'Erase Gaza': How genocidal rhetoric is normalised in Israel

In-depth: Incendiary language of extermination, ethnic cleansing, and the wholesale destruction of Gaza, including with nuclear weapons, has become part of mainstream discourse in Israel during the war.

www.newarab.com

Harsh Israeli rhetoric against Palestinians becomes central to South Africa's genocide case

Comments about fighting human animals, making Gaza a slaughterhouse, and erasing the Gaza Strip completely are key components of the case.

apnews.com

This soulless shitstain - Itamar Ben-Gvir - has convictions for racism and supporting terrorist groups, and now the khunt is a powerful government minister.

Far-right minister who visited contested Jerusalem site has long history of controversy

Israel’s far-right national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has visited Jerusalem’s most sensitive holy site in what he described as a protest against the recognition of a Palestinian state by three European countries.

apnews.com

RUN-INS WITH THE LAW
Ben-Gvir has been convicted eight times for offenses that include racism and supporting a terrorist organization. As a teen, his views were so extreme that the army banned him from compulsory military service.

Ben-Gvir gained notoriety in his youth as a follower of the late racist rabbi Meir Kahane. He first became a national figure when Ben-Gvir famously broke a hood ornament off then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin’s car in 1995.

“We got to his car, and we’ll get to him too,” he said, just weeks before Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist opposed to his peace efforts with the Palestinians.
Two years later, Ben-Gvir took responsibility for orchestrating a campaign of protests, including death threats, that forced Irish singer Sinead O’Connor to cancel a concert for peace in Jerusalem.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israelâs Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

No one, however, offends liberal and centrist Israelis quite like Itamar Ben-Gvir. Ben-Gvir, who entered parliament in 2021, leads a far-right party called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. His role model and ideological wellspring has long been Meir Kahane, a Brooklyn rabbi who moved to Israel in 1971 and, during a single term in the Knesset, tested the moral limits of the country. Israeli politicians strive to reconcile Israel’s identities as a Jewish state and a democracy. Kahane argued that “the idea of a democratic Jewish state is nonsense.” In his view, demographic trends would inevitably turn Israel’s non-Jews into a majority, and so the ideal solution was “the immediate transfer of the Arabs.” To Kahane, Arabs were “dogs” who “must sit quietly or get the hell out.” His rhetoric was so virulent that lawmakers from both sides of the aisle used to walk out of the Knesset when he spoke. His party, Kach (Thus), was finally barred from parliament in 1988. Jewish Power is an ideological offshoot of Kach; Ben-Gvir served as a Kach youth leader and has called Kahane a “saint.”

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

Netanyahu has been Israel’s dominant political figure for a generation, serving as Prime Minister for an unprecedented fifteen years. In 2021, though, he was sidelined by a parliamentary coalition that, for the first time, included an independent Arab party. During the elections last year, Netanyahu returned with what one legal scholar described as “a knife between his teeth.” To secure a winning coalition, he orchestrated an alliance between Jewish Power and another far-right party, Religious Zionism. The alliance ended up winning the third-largest share of seats in parliament, outperforming expectations so radically that Netanyahu now faced the disagreeable prospect of sharing power with Ben-Gvir—a man whom the former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described as a more imminent danger to Israel than a nuclear-armed Iran. Rather than give him a sinecure, Netanyahu named him the national-security minister.

 

[ForkinGreat]

Have you seen the raw footage of Oct 7th on telegram? If not, maybe you should delve into that a little bit.


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Again, like many Israeli cheerleaders, you are hyper-focussing on October 7th, like it's the kick-off for everything.

All you have is 'Yeah But What About...... '
You don't even provide a link, because you can't be arsed. You go watch it. Raw footage?!?! - you are far from being an expert on all sorts of things.


Maybe, you should consider the 75+ years of Israeli oppression and subjugation of the Palestinians.
There's a lot of information publicly available on all the instances of Overwhelmingly disproportionate Israeli retaliation, and ongoing brutal oppression.
I've given you enough links in this thread, on what is a fraction of the history of this conflict.

What the UN report on October 7 sexual violence does — and doesn’t — say
The UN report gives clarity, not answers.

What the UN report on October 7 sexual violence does — and doesn’t — say

The UN report gives clarity, not answers.

www.vox.com

October 7: Forensic analysis shows Hamas abuses, many false Israeli claims

Investigation draws up a list of those killed but also finds certain claims repeated by Israeli politicians untrue.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel obstructing access to 7 October attack victims: UN probe

www.middleeasteye.net

Harsh Israeli rhetoric against Palestinians becomes central to South Africa's genocide case

Comments about fighting human animals, making Gaza a slaughterhouse, and erasing the Gaza Strip completely are key components of the case.

apnews.com

 

[ForkinGreat]

Nah Im goin for a bike ride.. nothing I've said is hidden from the public eye, you seem to be trawling the internet for things that make you mad, maybe take a step out of your echo chamber for once.

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Your gaslighting and projection efforts seem to be crude and ineffectual...

 

[pink poodle]

Once again, if the Israeli government was genuinely focused on wiping out Hamas they have some of the most sophisticated surveillance and intelligence systems getting around to achieve that outcome in a much more subtle and targeted fashion. Regardless of the information wars being waged in this theatre, one thing is clear - the Israeli government does not care about collateral damage.

Even the financial ones only have a limited effect, ask Russia.

I think I forgot to finish that thought. I was meaning more on a domestic front for the protesters - boycots of things like musicians who say things that hurt your feelings, companies that support things you don't like, and so on.

As for Russia...well it's a big a place to be rich.

 

[Scotty T]

The IDF are being held to a ridiculous standard, war is hell

"War is hell" being used as an excuse for atrocities is getting pretty old now, but it seems to work every time.

 

[Jabubu]

The IDF are being held to a ridiculous standard, war is hell

But this isn't a conventional war and it's been proven that civilians have been deliberately targeted.

The Israeli Government are scum. The Israeli people are not scum.

Hamas are scum. The Palestinian people are not scum.

 

[Jabubu]

People keep saying things like atrocities and genocide.. it's literally one of the most difficult theatres of war and the IDF has a lower collateral damage rate than any other major urban conflict. Fighting a defending force thats heavily entrenched in tunnels and have entire buildings rigged to blow is insane.
True atrocities were Assad forces dropping barrel bombs out of helicopters onto busy markets, then circling back when medics are treating wounded and dropping another.
Using chemical weapons on entire suburbs or actually starving out tens of thousands of people. (Yea starving Gazans isn't a thing.. they have enough food that they sell the aid packages in markets.. where's the footage of the emaciated? Nothing but fat and healthy dudes in every video)
It's so easy for everyone to vilify the IDF when you are only listening to the propaganda of their enemy.


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You sound like an apologist for genocide. While I do concede that it's a complicated thing, it doesn't excuse the multitude of war crimes being committed by a standing military force.

 

[LPG]

People keep saying things like atrocities and genocide.. it's literally one of the most difficult theatres of war and the IDF has a lower collateral damage rate than any other major urban conflict. Fighting a defending force thats heavily entrenched in tunnels and have entire buildings rigged to blow is insane.
True atrocities were Assad forces dropping barrel bombs out of helicopters onto busy markets, then circling back when medics are treating wounded and dropping another.
Using chemical weapons on entire suburbs or actually starving out tens of thousands of people. (Yea starving Gazans isn't a thing.. they have enough food that they sell the aid packages in markets.. where's the footage of the emaciated? Nothing but fat and healthy dudes in every video)
It's so easy for everyone to vilify the IDF when you are only listening to the propaganda of their enemy.


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Good to see that you aren't susceptible to propaganda and can spread the truth from Telegram to us uninformed.

 

[Jabubu]

You clearly have no concept of what genocide truely means.

I think the dictionary defines it rather well -

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

 

[LPG]

Aaah so like Oct 7th? And how all their leaders promise they will do it again and again? Gotcha..

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Mate, Hamas is a terrorist group. Threats are what they do. They aren't a country with massive military support from the west. No one here is saying that Hama's is in the right.

 

[pink poodle]

I'll see ya when you clog up a busy intersection somewhere with your flags and banners..

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Please remember to honk!

 

[Jabubu]

Aaah so like Oct 7th? And how all their leaders promise they will do it again and again? Gotcha..

You mean a terrorist group? They're not an internationally recognised state with a military machine supported by major Governments for starters and certainly don't have the means to kill on the scale that Israel has (dirty bombs notwithstanding). They certainly don't have the logistical support or knowhow or strategy to carry out anything on the scale of what we're seeing let alone destroy Israel as a nation.

 

[The Duckmeister]

To be honest, anything you're sharing is getting overshadowed by your clear hatred of "Zionist scum". If you are looking to share factual stuff, cut out the racial hate.

That would be religious, not racial.

 

[Jabubu]

That would be religious, not racial.

It's neither, it's political.

 

[safreek]

You mean a terrorist group? They're not an internationally recognised state with a military machine supported by major Governments for starters and certainly don't have the means to kill on the scale that Israel has (dirty bombs notwithstanding). They certainly don't have the logistical support or knowhow or strategy to carry out anything on the scale of what we're seeing let alone destroy Israel as a nation.

Yeah, but with all these countries now recognizing Palestine as a nation doesn't that make it a terrorist nation if it is run by Hamas.
Not trying to bait but that's the way it would appear

 

[Jabubu]

Yeah, but with all these countries now recognising Palestine as a nation doesn't that make it a terrorist nation if it is run by Hamas.
Not trying to bait but that's the way it would appear

No not baiting at all, it's a fair question.

Part of the complexity is recognising Palestine and its people as a legitimate entity in order to give legal protections to its people, while not giving legitimacy to its 'Government'.

 

[ForkinGreat]

Aaah so like Oct 7th? And how all their leaders promise they will do it again and again? Gotcha..

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Once again, hammering October 7th like it's the only thing that ever happened in the entire 75+ year conflict.
Straight out of the Zionist Israeli playbook.

Have you served in the IDF?, or you are itching to go and serve with the IDF?
The IDF has previously stated that the 'war' might last for the rest of 2024.

So...
You've tried to bait us into some sort of 'moral trap' about Genocide
"Never Again" Must Mean Never Again FOR ANYONE, not just a specific group.

You've tried to equate criticism of Zionism as racial hatred - it's certainly nothing to do with race, or religion.
You've tried to portray the IDF as the good guys. Your hero Bibi claims that "The IDF is the most moral army in the world"

We haven't had accusations of Anti-semitism yet, surely that must be next.

We've certainly heard a lot about "Israel's right to self-defence" from both the Israelis and the USA.
but.... here's the kicker...

Under International Law,

A state cannot simultaneously exercise control over territory it occupies and militarily attack that territory on the claim that it is “foreign” and poses an exogenous national security threat. In doing precisely that, Israel is asserting rights that may be consistent with colonial domination but simply do not exist under international law.
Military occupation is a recognized status under international law and since 1967, the international community has designated the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as militarily occupied. As long as the occupation continues, Israel has the right to protect itself and its citizens from attacks by Palestinians who reside in the occupied territories. However, Israel also has a duty to maintain law and order, also known as “normal life,” within territory it occupies. This obligation includes not only ensuring but prioritizing the security and well-being of the occupied population. That responsibility and those duties are enumerated in Occupation Law.

Israel’s Attempts To Change International Law

Since the beginning of its occupation in 1967, Israel has rebuffed the applicability of international humanitarian law to the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). Despite imposing military rule over the West Bank and Gaza, Israel denied the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (the cornerstone of Occupation Law). Israel argued because the territories neither constituted a sovereign state nor were sovereign territories of the displaced states at the time of conquest, that it simply administered the territories and did not occupy them within the meaning of international law. The UN Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly, as well as the Israeli High Court of Justice have roundly rejected the Israeli government’s position. Significantly, the HCJ recognizes the entirety of the Hague Regulations and provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions that pertain to military occupation as customary international law.
Israel’s refusal to recognize the occupied status of the territory, bolstered by the US’ resilient and intransigent opposition to international accountability within the UN Security Council, has resulted in the condition that exists today: prolonged military occupation. Whereas the remedy to occupation is its cessation, such recourse will not suffice to remedy prolonged military occupation. By virtue of its decades of military rule, Israel has characterized all Palestinians as a security threat and Jewish nationals as their potential victims, thereby justifying the differential, and violent, treatment of Palestinians. In its 2012 session, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination described current conditions following decades of occupation and attendant repression as tantamount to Apartheid.

No, Israel Does Not Have the Right to Self-Defense In International Law Against Occupied Palestinian Territory

[In view of Israel`s assertions that its current attacks on the Gaza Strip are an exercise in legitimate self-defense, Jadaliyya re-posts an analysis of this claim by Co-Editor Noura Erakat initially published in 2012.] On the fourth day of Israel`s

www.jadaliyya.com