Mtb guiding/instructor courses

Hey im just looking for courses for MTB guiding. Ive previously done one of these before whilst traveling in Canada but have not had any luck so far looking for such courses here in AUS. Can anyone help me out?
Cheers
 

Escapegoat

Escapegoat
As far as I know there is still no current Australian qualification or anyone offering guiding/skills coaching instructional training. Norm at MTB skills has been looking into this I believe, hoping to get some best practise training. http://www.mtbskills.com.au/

I did the Scottish MTB leaders (SMBLA) qualifications whilst I was in the UK, which is one of the best courses and is recognised by IMBA. It is the one that most guides in the Alps were using, and qualifies you to guide worldwide, although the french sometimes decide not to recognise it....! http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/SCU/smbla/about_SMBLA.asp

However currently in Australia there is no 'standard' and thus there is nothing to say you need qualifications to work as a guide or skills coach. Hence you do get some 'variation' in the quality of guiding and coaching on offer around the place, and anyone can claim to be an 'expert'.

Happy to give any other advise, ask away.....
 
Last edited:
Hey yeah thanks guys. I got my Level 1 Canadian Mountainbike Instructor Certification way back in 2004 but it expired in 2007 ( a long time ago i know). Thanks for the tips and ill get back to ya i have anymore questions
 

jasevr4

Likes Dirt
Whistler use a "Mountain Bike Guide & Instructor Development Program", Levels 1 and 2, which I believe is held in high regard across North America.

What do you need it for in Aus? If you hold anything that is decent I'm sure they will recognise it in Aus.. Something is better than nothing, right?
 
Yeah the one i got in Canada enabled me to work at Whistler etc but it was only valid for three years till you do a refresher coarse. Just thought there might be some where in here in Oz i could update it/ Gain credit for as im keen to get back into it.
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
As far as I know there is still no current Australian qualification or anyone offering guiding/skills coaching instructional training. Norm at MTB skills has been looking into this I believe, hoping to get some best practise training. http://www.mtbskills.com.au/

I did the Scottish MTB leaders (SMBLA) qualifications whilst I was in the UK, which is one of the best courses and is recognised by IMBA. It is the one that most guides in the Alps were using, and qualifies you to guide worldwide, although the french sometimes decide not to recognise it....! http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/SCU/smbla/about_SMBLA.asp

However currently in Australia there is no 'standard' and thus there is nothing to say you need qualifications to work as a guide or skills coach. Hence you do get some 'variation' in the quality of guiding and coaching on offer around the place, and anyone can claim to be an 'expert'.

Happy to give any other advise, ask away.....
We have been developing our course over the past few months, and we are about to launch in August. IMBA has said they will be endorsing our course.
Check out more details here -> http://www.mountainbikeinstructors.com.au/
 

trav

Likes Dirt
I don't think you need any qualifications unless you are certifying your pupils,correct me if i am wrong anyone.Most instructors are self proclaimed.
 

martinpb

Likes Dirt
there are two TAFE courses in outdoor education that have mountain bike skills, teaching and guiding as options:
Lithgow Collage (Part of TAFE Western in NSW)
Chisholm from their Frankston campus in Vic
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
there are two TAFE courses in outdoor education that have mountain bike skills, teaching and guiding as options:
Lithgow Collage (Part of TAFE Western in NSW)
Chisholm from their Frankston campus in Vic
With all due respect to the above courses (we have past experience with them) they are far more outdoor adventure leaders course than anything else. The curriculum certainly doesn't cover anything even remotely suggestive of a MTB Skills instructor. This is the hole that we will fulfil.
 

bikerpete

Likes Bikes
Call for input.

There seems to be a variety of courses on offer, all somewhat different. It seems to me that it's time for everyone involved to sit down and start working out how to move forward with a recognised course that answers the needs of riders and schools.

Do the existing courses (Tafe style, commercial (PMBI, MTB Skills etc) and Cycling Australia level 1 MTB coach ) meet the needs? I make no bones about it, I don't think they do.

What might be the best model to use for the process to develop the course that is needed (if the existing courses are not adequate?)

I'm interested to hear everyone's views, perhaps I'm missing something here. I think the coaching course is race oriented and is most likely quite superficial (I've only looked at the course information sheet). The Tafe style courses are aimed more for guiding and very beginner level instruction. What's missing is something to produce instructors for the rider who is just looking for skills improvement.

Please, fire away.

Peter
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
There seems to be a variety of courses on offer, all somewhat different. It seems to me that it's time for everyone involved to sit down and start working out how to move forward with a recognised course that answers the needs of riders and schools.

Do the existing courses (Tafe style, commercial (PMBI, MTB Skills etc) and Cycling Australia level 1 MTB coach ) meet the needs? I make no bones about it, I don't think they do.

What might be the best model to use for the process to develop the course that is needed (if the existing courses are not adequate?)

I'm interested to hear everyone's views, perhaps I'm missing something here. I think the coaching course is race oriented and is most likely quite superficial (I've only looked at the course information sheet). The Tafe style courses are aimed more for guiding and very beginner level instruction. What's missing is something to produce instructors for the rider who is just looking for skills improvement.

Please, fire away.

Peter
I'm sure others can speak on my behalf, but I think that's what we have been doing now for over 5 years.

We offer skills instruction (vastly different from coaching) for all levels of riders... oh and we don't use witches hats!
 

bikerpete

Likes Bikes
Hi Norm, I jumped back on here this morning to edit my previous post and found you'd beaten me.
I realised my last sentence, "What's missing is something to produce instructors for the rider who is just looking for skills improvement." implied that I thought your course and the PMBI course (and any others of the same ilk I'm not aware of) where not addressing the need. That's not what I meant.

I think that both your and PMBI's courses are exactly the sort of thing that is needed. I haven't done your course so can't comment on the content. I have done the PMBI level 1 and thought it was quite good.

The problem is we now have at least two courses that seem to have little or no coordination and sharing of ideas between them, and neither seem to have formal recognition in Australia from anyone but themselves.
Cycling Australia offer the Level 1 MTB Coach qualification, but looking at the course outline the skills component is presently one item on one day amongst 6 other items, perhaps an hour or two? Hardly adequate to cover even a fraction of what an instructor is going to need! The outdoor recreation leader courses are another route, but do they fill the requirements appropriately? I don't know, but doubt it from what I've heard. Search on the web for MTB instruction and you quickly see that there is little to no consistency in what qualifications (if any) the various schools are using.

I'm concerned that we're going to end up with a plethora of qualifications with little or no consistency, portability or broad recognition if things keep going along the path followed thus far. Instructors will be unable to move between employers without adding to an endless list of qualifications, schools will be left wondering what to adopt, insurers will have difficulty weighing up the risks, riders will be left trying to guess what it all means and who to turn to. It's been suggested to me that there is no need for instructor qualifications other than those provided by the Tafe type courses and Cycling Australia. I disagree.

I think it's time for all the interested parties to sit down together and come up with an inclusive way to develop a single qualification system for instructors that's effective, well recognised and enduring. That's just my view, but I'm just an intermediate recreational rider doing a bit of instruction for my club. What do you think?

I might be out on a limb with my ideas, in which case I'll pull my head in and go riding. But if there are a significant number of others who are thinking along the same lines then lets try to have some input on the best way forward so everyone benefits:
  • The sport by giving improved pathways for new riders into the sport, and more likelihood of retaining riders (if you get frustrated with your riding progress you're more likely to give up).
  • Riders by helping them efficiently acquire the skills they want and need, also a consistency as they move from school to school or instructor to instructor.
  • Instructors by giving them a clearer path through qualifications, and easier movement within the industry, nationally and internationally if possible.
  • ...
Peter
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
We have been developing our course over the past few months, and we are about to launch in August. IMBA has said they will be endorsing our course.
Check out more details here -> http://www.mountainbikeinstructors.com.au/
With clarification to the above, when I wrote this (which was almost 2 years ago) we were in discussion with IMBA about potentially getting IMBA to endorse our course. To date this has not happened. Hope this clarifies matters.
 

Escapegoat

Escapegoat
oh dear, who dug up this can of worms!

Yeap, in the 2 years since this thread originally started, nothing really has changed, has it! We still have the crazy situation that anyone can set themselves up as a self-professed skills coach, start teaching, and potentially even create their own instructor courses too, with no qualifications or experience. It really does not help there is no current Aussie recognised qualification.

It's interesting to see how British Cycling have developed this over the last few years- they have a new level 2 MTB guiding/leadership qualification, and totally separate MTB coaching qualifications, which I think is a good way to go. It does look like they still need to finalise the upper levels of these courses. It will be interesting to see how this develops with the level 3 certificate, as I currently think the level 2 is not definitive enough (and clearly wasn't planned that way, but a stepping stone for advanced trainers to move forward). http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/coaching/article/leaderst-Level-2-Mountain-Bike-Leadership-Award-0

The biggest difference between this and what currently is on offer in Australia is that this is an assessed qualification (after a period of consolidation and practise), rather than a short training course. The idea that it should take a period of months or more to gain a qualification (and the experience to pass it) and that you need to work through a series of levels to attain the highest level award makes a lot of sense, rather than a quick weekend.

There are a few other things to consider too- it's fine to do a training course (with or without a recognised qualification!), but it is experience and practice that makes a good guide/instructor- don't believe anyone who tells you they can teach you to be an polished instructor in a weekend! I had worked for 2 summers in the Alps whilst getting my qualifications, before I set up my business 5 years ago, and I am still learning and developing both my skills and the way we teach. Our other instructor is an experienced guide/instructor who has worked in Whistler -we actually recruited him based on his experience, knowledge and personality, rather than any qualification he had - and it helps to bounce ideas around and see how what others have learnt or found works- Experience in many ways is way more important than a qualification.

In SA at least, most insurers and landowners will require you at abide by our Adventure Activity Standards to run commercial MTB activities- they have a list of competencies that a leader/company needs to abide by- they have a long list of educational units that it is required you are able to demonstrate you have attained. I don't neccesaririly agree with it, but its a good start if you make sure any course you attend at least covers this type of basic stuff....
http://www.recreationsa.org/GOSO/aas/mountainbiking.pdf

Of course it doesn't help when some operators don't even have permission or a licence to operate on the land they use, but that is another can of worms!
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
oh dear, who dug up this can of worms!

Yeap, in the 2 years since this thread originally started, nothing really has changed, has it! We still have the crazy situation that anyone can set themselves up as a self-professed skills coach, start teaching, and potentially even create their own instructor courses too, with no qualifications or experience. It really does not help there is no current Aussie recognised qualification.

It's interesting to see how British Cycling have developed this over the last few years- they have a new level 2 MTB guiding/leadership qualification, and totally separate MTB coaching qualifications, which I think is a good way to go. It does look like they still need to finalise the upper levels of these courses. It will be interesting to see how this develops with the level 3 certificate, as I currently think the level 2 is not definitive enough (and clearly wasn't planned that way, but a stepping stone for advanced trainers to move forward). http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/coaching/article/leaderst-Level-2-Mountain-Bike-Leadership-Award-0

The biggest difference between this and what currently is on offer in Australia is that this is an assessed qualification (after a period of consolidation and practise), rather than a short training course. The idea that it should take a period of months or more to gain a qualification (and the experience to pass it) and that you need to work through a series of levels to attain the highest level award makes a lot of sense, rather than a quick weekend.

There are a few other things to consider too- it's fine to do a training course (with or without a recognised qualification!), but it is experience and practice that makes a good guide/instructor- don't believe anyone who tells you they can teach you to be an polished instructor in a weekend! I had worked for 2 summers in the Alps whilst getting my qualifications, before I set up my business 5 years ago, and I am still learning and developing both my skills and the way we teach. Our other instructor is an experienced guide/instructor who has worked in Whistler -we actually recruited him based on his experience, knowledge and personality, rather than any qualification he had - and it helps to bounce ideas around and see how what others have learnt or found works- Experience in many ways is way more important than a qualification.

In SA at least, most insurers and landowners will require you at abide by our Adventure Activity Standards to run commercial MTB activities- they have a list of competencies that a leader/company needs to abide by- they have a long list of educational units that it is required you are able to demonstrate you have attained. I don't neccesaririly agree with it, but its a good start if you make sure any course you attend at least covers this type of basic stuff....
http://www.recreationsa.org/GOSO/aas/mountainbiking.pdf

Of course it doesn't help when some operators don't even have permission or a licence to operate on the land they use, but that is another can of worms!
Completely agree Ian. Two points... we certainly make people understand that what makes you into a good instructor is by instructing. Our instructors need to go through a assessment period after our course. Which includes but not limited to, shadowing another instructor, running their own course and other elements.
Also, right now the issue with having any so-called "certified qualification" is WHO would do the certifying? It's my belief that currently right now there is no body or organisation that is suitably experienced or qualified to do this.

The reason we started our own instructor courses is because there was no other way here in Aus, for us to get something that even resembled a qualification.

As always, very happy to answer any questions
 

bikerpete

Likes Bikes
It's encouraging to see two experienced operators agreeing that the present situation isn't really adequate.

It leaves the question of how to fix it hanging though.
Are we looking at a skills instruction type qualification that stands relatively alone, like PMBI, MTB Skills, IMBIC etc, or part of a more wholistic guide/instructor qualification or part of a broad outdoor recreation leader course?

Should an independent "instructors association" be formed to develop a course?
Should MTBA and Cycling Australia take on the role of developing a course?
Is an existing course appropriate to adopt as the national standard?
Should such a course be only available through RTO's (registered training organistations) or is it better to be able to be delivered by approved schools for example (I don't know if any MTB schools are RTO's?). Should it be a Nationally Recognised Training (NRT) unit? On the one hand the NRT/RTO path is great for protection from litigation, but it can become inflexible and hamstrung by process. Conversely a more independent structure might have less legal weight, but is more flexible and in many ways more transparent (I've no idea how to find out who actually developed the existing SISOMBK302A for instance, are they skilled riders? What is their MTB instruction background?)
Is SISOMBK302A "Apply advanced off-road cycling skills" a relevant training package? It's already a Nationally Recognised Training unit after all.

And here's a key one. Who are the specific individuals who should be getting together to work through this, and how are they going to be identified? Personally I think it should be a mix of cycling administrators, highly skilled riders, experienced instructors and coaches and qualified education specialists. It's probably worthwhile to identify sports with significant similarities and see what suggestions they have to offer - no point re-inventing the wheel.

I think Ian's point about separating guiding and coaching is true. I think guiding, coaching and instructing are all separate skill sets that are complementary. In MTB any professional probably needs some of all of them, but the blend can vary tremendously, therefore the training should have some overlap but be separate. ie a guiding qual. would include some basic instruction skills and perhaps a coaching "awareness" component, but it wouldn't produce an instructor or a coach. Ditto for each of them.

Peter
 

normdouglas

Likes Dirt
Incredible to find these conversations after all these years. Bravo Rotorburn.
As an update, MTBSkills.com.au(AMBIA) has been wound up a number of years ago. Great to see two of our previous instructors and educators in Adam Kelsall and Evan James now essentially running the coaching accreditation for MTBA (also soon to be defunct).
I think it was a missed opportunity with all this and I also think it's still a mistake to lump a "coach" and an "instructor" in together... but I played a role in not continuing what I started, whilst I did try my best.
 
Top