Muscle Gain from Endurance riding?

[Cam070695]

So i was having a chat to a health food expert today, went in chasing a decent supplement for muscle recovery and gain. The bloke pretty much told me to hit the gym if i want to gain, endurance riding burns muscle off.
It makes sense to me but surely theres away to gain!
Im like a rake, if you saw me in the gym you would laugh. I want to stick to my bicycles!

 

[pistonbroke]

Don't listen to those meat heads. You can gain some muscle from endurance riding. But I think it's all in how you eat and recover after a ride. You need to eat both carbs and protein after a ride. Straight after is best. This is when your muscles absorb it and store it for fuel. You can go and buy expensive recovery drinks/powders that do work well. I also think a good chocolate low fat milk like Sustagen Sport works well.
How old are you? What do you do for a living? What's your goal?
But hitting the weights and protein powders does work for bulking up.

 

[wilddemon]

^^^ agree. The other thing is supposedly there are different results from gym vs riding coz gym will build mainly fast twitch fibres and endurance will build mainly slow twitch. It's good to build a bit of power endurance but straight out power (10 reps max load) won't help you much on anything but the tiniest pinches. I suppose you could do slow cycles, but better to just stick to riding, hitting some hills and intervals, and good nutrition IMO

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Depends on how much muscle you want to build? I took it as you want to put a bit of mass on all round - not just for cycling?

The guy you spoke too is pretty much correct and there is two primary reasons for this;

Aerobic exercise such as cycling depresses muscle growth due to MTOR pathway being blocked by aerobic activity (MTOR regulates RNA transcription -the blue prints for muscle growth) so if you do a lot of cycling and hit the gym, you'll get fitter still - mitochondrial based adaptation but no significant muscle gain.

Secondly to put muscle on you must have a excess energy / calorie surplus, from memory around 500 calories daily - moderate to high levels of sustained aerobic activity almost always result in a calorie deficit. SO for many endurance based athletes this is an issue.

It is possible to put on some decent muscle mass as a cyclist, but it is a challenge. You will have to periodise your training quite closely to have periods when you taper off the cycling (so purely a maintenance threshold) and focus on gym, then vice versa, focus on cycling and taper off the gym. Anything from 1-3 months is pretty standard for this sort of thing.

Also unless your overall diet is great and your training hard, don't worry about expensive supplements, minimal benefits to be had for the money you'll spend.

 

[driftking]

Depends on how much muscle you want to build? I took it as you want to put a bit of mass on all round - not just for cycling?

The guy you spoke too is pretty much correct and there is two primary reasons for this;

Aerobic exercise such as cycling depresses muscle growth due to MTOR pathway being blocked by aerobic activity (MTOR regulates RNA transcription -the blue prints for muscle growth) so if you do a lot of cycling and hit the gym, you'll get fitter still - mitochondrial based adaptation but no significant muscle gain.

Secondly to put muscle on you must have a excess energy / calorie surplus, from memory around 500 calories daily - moderate to high levels of sustained aerobic activity almost always result in a calorie deficit. SO for many endurance based athletes this is an issue.

It is possible to put on some decent muscle mass as a cyclist, but it is a challenge. You will have to periodise your training quite closely to have periods when you taper off the cycling (so purely a maintenance threshold) and focus on gym, then vice versa, focus on cycling and taper off the gym. Anything from 1-3 months is pretty standard for this sort of thing.

Also unless your overall diet is great and your training hard, don't worry about expensive supplements, minimal benefits to be had for the money you'll spend.

This, even if you eat up the deficit your MTOR pathways are being told to not gain size. As MWI touched on the best approach is a periodsation for these times
Supplements (besides medical reasons) should only be used for making up gaps were food doesn't cut it. after training it can be easier to get in a shake rather than digestive a meal, there are some advantages to using shakes are specific times but for most it doesn't matter, they tend to be geared more towards bulking up.

 

[Milo_B]

Hitting the gym can help with your endurance riding as the others have suggested.

A few things I have found to assist are:

- Strengthening the arms (triceps), back and shoulders helps with seeing out endurance events.
- Protein powders are to be used as supplements and are not the solution. If you are using them - stick to a low fat whey protein or sustagen sport - but a balanced diet is generally better and cheaper. If using a protein powder - you get what you pay for. I find cheap powders don't get along too well with my stomach.
- Gym work takes time to have a positive effect on your riding
- Time on the bike will generally be of more benefit than time in the gym and provides results quicker!


Good luck

 

[adaib]

Why do you want mass. Keep the power to weight ratio good by building strength without the mass. Bikes are good for that, seated climbs with a low cadence, improve technique as well as strength.

 

[driftking]

Hitting the gym can help with your endurance riding as the others have suggested.

A few things I have found to assist are:

- Strengthening the arms (triceps), back and shoulders helps with seeing out endurance events.
- Protein powders are to be used as supplements and are not the solution. If you are using them - stick to a low fat whey protein or sustagen sport - but a balanced diet is generally better and cheaper. If using a protein powder - you get what you pay for. I find cheap powders don't get along too well with my stomach.
- Gym work takes time to have a positive effect on your riding
- Time on the bike will generally be of more benefit than time in the gym and provides results quicker!


Good luck

That is one of the woes of cheap protien powders.
The first one is that the concentration is lower, when it says 100% whey it does not mean that you get 100%pure whey. Divide the serve size by the protien per serve to get the percentage. You pay more for higher protien because they contain less concentrate and more isolates.

The second one is the digestion, due to lower processing they can give people digestive issues. Look for Hydrolyzed and different protien sources ie egg protien, rice, pea etc.
Hydrolyzed is basically designed to be somewhat predigested, they do enter the system faster but it is so negligable it's not worth the cost for that reason alone, I would personally only my bother to help prevent stomach issues.

I would advise against soy for men due to its ability to raise estrogen.

As for your final suggestion about on the bike provides more benefit I would be cautious with that, for new riders and people who are not conditioned to riding, riding Lone can and yield good results though there is a point where certain muscles and the body needs more load to improve this is where gym work comes in. You can't isolate or stress the muscles on the bike adequately once you reach a certain level, off the gym helps strength and can help focus on specific weakened areas.

 

[disappearin]

I would advise against soy for men due to its ability to raise estrogen.

I think you will find alot of research doesn't support this view.

For example: http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract

 

[driftking]

I think you will find alot of research doesn't support this view.

For example: http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract

Interesting, I may try find some bigger studies on the subject. I have heard that soy is not a concern albeit I like to stick with none soy anyway so Iv just gone with the flow on that one I admit.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I think you will find alot of research doesn't support this view.

For example: http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(09)00966-2/abstract

Nice linky, I was always on the fence about soy consumption, neither for or against - not that I have done any reading about it.

But when Mens Health magazine run an article about how bad it is, I should have realised that'd be wrong... as usual.

Edit:

Interesting, I may try find some bigger studies on the subject. I have heard that soy is not a concern albeit I like to stick with none soy anyway so Iv just gone with the flow on that one I admit.

You won't find any larger studies than that, this meta-analysis has included them all and compiled their combined results, based on that, its a pretty solid finding.

 

[top_oz_bloke]

Keep the power to weight ratio good by building strength without the mass.

Can any of the sports scientists types on here confirm whether or not this type of comment actually has any basis. I've seen it before and it's never quite sat right with me.

To me there is something wrong, as if it's suggesting your body could somehow be building bulky ineffective muscle in response to training. I can understand this occuring if you're doing totally the wrong thing, like puffing yourself up on some sort of bodybuilding program, but does it make any sense assuming some sort of specificity to the training?

I can see how this idea might come about when the lean wiry guy hands it to the hulking titan but would seem more a case of the latter being poorly adapted to the activity rather than some sort of high strength muscle building exercise.

 

[Skyman1604]

Want bigger legs? Climb more hills

 

[top_oz_bloke]

Want bigger legs? Climb more hills

Really? I look at the TdF and the guys with big legs are the sprinters. The climbers seem to be the little guys.

 

[Skyman1604]

Get the best of both worlds and sprint up hill. Can only be good for you lol

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Can any of the sports scientists types on here confirm whether or not this type of comment actually has any basis. I've seen it before and it's never quite sat right with me.

To me there is something wrong, as if it's suggesting your body could somehow be building bulky ineffective muscle in response to training. I can understand this occuring if you're doing totally the wrong thing, like puffing yourself up on some sort of bodybuilding program, but does it make any sense assuming some sort of specificity to the training?

I can see how this idea might come about when the lean wiry guy hands it to the hulking titan but would seem more a case of the latter being poorly adapted to the activity rather than some sort of high strength muscle building exercise.

Yes, as you postulate, it is very true when taken more to the extreme levels, ie body builders are not very strong for there mass (as a muscle gets bigger it gets less efficient at applying force down the axis of the muscle - pennation angles negatively change to accommodate increased mass). Little female gymnasts are incredibility strong for there mass - possibly similar to hill climb specilists - less mass to move = more relative power. But for the average bloke riding a bike, its probably not that feasible - training for power / strength is going to result in hypertrophy.

A best way to train for it is high intensity / low volume work in a gym - power training, moving a heavy mass as fast as possible, on a bike - basically what others have said ride up hills (lots of short sharp climbs) / do a lot of sprinting.

Think of training for power/strength without the mass as more of a neurological adaptation, you get a lot better at using what you have.

 

[driftking]

Nice linky, I was always on the fence about soy consumption, neither for or against - not that I have done any reading about it.

But when Mens Health magazine run an article about how bad it is, I should have realised that'd be wrong... as usual.

Edit:



You won't find any larger studies than that, this meta-analysis has included them all and compiled their combined results, based on that, its a pretty solid finding.

Ah yes I see, I skimmed it quickly before and saw 36 and mis-read it as a small group of participants rather than a large number of compiled studies. That's what I get for skim reading hey,

 

[Genius Josh]

Nice linky, I was always on the fence about soy consumption, neither for or against - not that I have done any reading about it.

But when Mens Health magazine run an article about how bad it is, I should have realised that'd be wrong... as usual.

Edit:



You won't find any larger studies than that, this meta-analysis has included them all and compiled their combined results, based on that, its a pretty solid finding.

You will probably find it is more anecdotal, does drinking a Soy Chai Latte less of a man? Probably so

 

[Trickymac]

Really? I look at the TdF and the guys with big legs are the sprinters. The climbers seem to be the little guys.

cadel evans has decent sized/big legs, sure his upper body is lithe but hes got some power in those legs, just look at him next to a schleck brother
when i started riding 4 yrs ago, i put ON 10kg, 5 on each leg i reckon, plus i lost a bit around the tummy,i ride btw 50-100klms a week, kept that same weight now for last 4 yrs giive or take a kilo or 2 depending on how much i pudding i eat

 

[driftking]

cadel evans has decent sized/big legs, sure his upper body is lithe but hes got some power in those legs, just look at him next to a schleck brother
when i started riding 4 yrs ago, i put ON 10kg, 5 on each leg i reckon, plus i lost a bit around the tummy,i ride btw 50-100klms a week, kept that same weight now for last 4 yrs giive or take a kilo or 2 depending on how much i pudding i eat

just to add on to this.
lets keep in mind that elite riders do train for sprints, they do train different aspects and they hit the gym, there is also a point where you will need to improve muscle size to improve performance, there is a lot you can get out of a muscle in terms of density and improvements in the firing of said muscles but there is a point where you are limiting your potential, you would be hard pressed to find a elite rider who doesn't periodize a time for muscle mass.

Riding alone will not give you the same size as Cadel, it just wont happen, long distance riding or sprints don't offer the right stimulus to yield size growth to that level, newbies will gain size but its not a long term or viable way to try and add size. hill climbs and sprints both offer higher levers of stress over a shorter period of time. These practices do increase size but you cant expect cadel results on a bike only.

sprinters do not just do sprints on the bike and climbers just don't climb hills all day, there is lots of off the bike training and periodzation in those programs.