National fuel strike

[pink poodle]

Here’s hoping the prices stay high, and keep getting higher longer term.

Needs to be $3 a litre to really drive significant change in consumer purchasing habits. Too fast a rise and it’s too much of a disruption though. Need time for all those suv owners to join the dots and change cars...

But with a whole bunch of middle and lower end market EVs about to hit the market it’s probably well timed.

So glad our government got on the front foot with charging infrastructure and consumer education etc

The brilliant strategist at work...did you write the public health policy on cigarette pricing as well? If you want to change people's attitude towards driving you'll need a more comprehensive plan.

 

[johnny]

Sorry I wasn't clear.
Government won't notice any financial difference from the protest. I thought my comment implied that as I was referring to the financial benefits and burdons of the protest of not purchasing fuel for a day.
I agree, it highlighted the public opinion and public forums regarding high prices.
Short term result, it costs small businesses , it costs the public, government "might" feel some pressure "if" a major party decides to make an election issue from it, but it costs them nothing.

Fair enough.

I'd reckon it probably wouldn't even hurt the businesses too much either though as people - if any actually participated - would have just bought the day before or after, balancing out any impact to businesses.

 

[Haakon]

The brilliant strategist at work...did you write the public health policy on cigarette pricing as well? If you want to change people's attitude towards driving you'll need a more comprehensive plan.

Obviously. Natural market forces such as rising petrol prices are a useful trigger to take advantage of (or manage if you’re being kinder ) to drive improvements in air quality, human health and national energy security.

Clearly you cant let the high prices do all the work and hope it all works out - you need a plan. We don’t have one... Other countries do.

Big hits to the wallet are however the thing most people notice first and can be a useful policy lever. The bright ones will think about that beyond railing against oil companies and consider what they can do individually - different car, different transport habits etc etc. Be part of a change instead of whinging about the status quo.

A smart government will have a lot of the solutions ready and waiting when people start to look around for the answer.

 

[pink poodle]

Obviously. Natural market forces such as rising petrol prices are a useful trigger to take advantage of (or manage if you’re being kinder ) to drive improvements in air quality, human health and national energy security.

Clearly you cant let the high prices do all the work and hope it all works out - you need a plan. We don’t have one... Other countries do.

All right then (because I put this kind of theory into the same category as trickle down economics) could you sling me say 3 examples where raising the price of something considered "essential" has curbed consumer behaviour? I'm not trying to be a Jerk (unusual I know) I just can't think of where it has worked. Electricity usage seems to be unaffected by high prices (though this wasn't a strategy) people just whinge. Cigarettes are still getting a hammering and so is alcohol, with a special mention of alco-pops and their specific tax. Sure the extra revenue from those may have been used for improving health services.

 

[Haakon]

Smoking rates are down massively on past years. Energy efficiency is an effective marketing tool for appliances and light bulbs etc (even beyond the mandated standards as I understand it), and alcohol... dunno about that one.

Price does alter change to a point, it depends a bit on what it is. Fuel consumption is remarkably inelastic, it will take massive price hike to drive significant changes.

But you do see some changes. Plenty of studies for example track SUV/truck purchasing in the US against fuel prices - they track each other quite well.

But as you say, fuel needs way more planning and complementary policies.

 

[Haakon]

And yes I’d agree with the trickle down comment - on its own it’s not good policy.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Too fast a rise and it’s too much of a disruption though.

Yeah, but do we want to deal with CC or not?

Massive disruption is what's needed I'm afraid.

 

[Haakon]

Yeah, but do we want to deal with CC or not?

Massive disruption is what's needed I'm afraid.

Agreed. I had my "people are stupid and shortsighted and self centered" policy hat on there... What I think can be done without Limited News and 2GB bringing down another government.

The annoying thing is that its not just CC at stake. There are so many other benefits...

 

[hifiandmtb]

Fixing CC is the only benefit. Everything else is a luxury.

Modelling is showing that we need WWII-level rationing to change behaviours & rapidly deploy new tech to replace the old:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Second_World_War

It's scary what is needed. What's even scarier is what we are *NOT* doing.

 

[Haakon]

Yep.

(must be time for another OS holiday. See the world while its still there...)

 

[hifiandmtb]

Or have a holiday before you are prevented from doing so.

I’d be happy to deal with rationing if it was universal...

 

[Dozer]

Here’s hoping the prices stay high, and keep getting higher longer term.

Are you high? People suggesting you can partake in a fancy rainbow colored life with pretty blinking stars and unicorns without requiring the resources to maintain their happy life from products derived by the use of petrol are smack heads.
Get off the bongs.

 

[Haakon]

Meanwhile, in America....

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ealthiest-families-dynasties-governed-by-rich

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/31/epa-trump-pollution-clean-power-plan-states

 

[Haakon]

Are you high? People suggesting you can partake in a fancy rainbow colored life with pretty blinking stars and unicorns without requiring the resources to maintain their happy life from products derived by the use of petrol are smack heads.
Get off the bongs.

A nuanced and thoughtful contribution to a complex long term and wide ranging policy problem.

 

[ashes_mtb]

Are you high? People suggesting you can partake in a fancy rainbow colored life with pretty blinking stars and unicorns without requiring the resources to maintain their happy life from products derived by the use of petrol are smack heads.
Get off the bongs.

I thought the point being made was that higher prices were needed to make those happy (and unsustainable) lives unaffordable, and hence force change?

 

[pink poodle]

Smoking rates are down massively on past years

This one was easy to look up. Heart foundation had a graph showing a fall of 24.2% to 15.5% of the population smoking from 2001 to 2015. That isn't exactly a massive fall. Electricity consumption is a bit trickier to look up, but anecdotaly look at our household consumption of power chewing appliances. How many people have more than one television, fridge, computer...the change needs to be cultural and life style.

Sometimes we need to accept less of @Dozer's unicorns to prevent loosing all of it.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Why are manufacturers allowed to sell less than 5 star energy products?

Because cheap products would disappear & people would get angry.

We can’t let society drive change, it has to be mandated...

 

[Haakon]

This one was easy to look up. Heart foundation had a graph showing a fall of 24.2% to 15.5% of the population smoking from 2001 to 2015. That isn't exactly a massive fall. Electricity consumption is a bit trickier to look up, but anecdotaly look at our household consumption of power chewing appliances. How many people have more than one television, fridge, computer...the change needs to be cultural and life style.

Sometimes we need to accept less of @Dozer's unicorns to prevent loosing all of it.

I'm agreeing with you - these things respond to prices only to a point (until the price gets really extreme). Its also hard to filter out the impact of prices alone when there so many other factors effecting smoking and electricity usage etc etc...

Appliance efficiency is a bit like improved efficiency in cars - offset by more toys and bigger cars...

Smoking is down though, id say prices were a fairly significant part of that though.

What I mean though about price hikes it that its usually the poster boy - its the thing in people's face and mostly drives that initial thought process about "do I really want to buy that?". It needs to backed up with good underlying policy though, even if its only ever the prices the "average consumer" think about.

 

[Haakon]

Why are manufacturers allowed to sell less than 5 star energy products?

Because cheap products would disappear & people would get angry.

We can’t let society drive change, it has to be mandated...

Yup. Complete deregulation is a recipe for anarchy and widespread harm (sorry IPA...).

Good policy sets the direction and works to drive social change - but with a mandated minimum standard.

Massive petrol price hikes would be a nice side effect of the markets doing their thing anyway, but realistically its better to complement that with incentives for low emissions vehicles (paid for by all that extra excise for example...) and minimum standards for new vehicle efficiency (and ban diesels of course).

 

[Flow-Rider]

Are you high? People suggesting you can partake in a fancy rainbow colored life with pretty blinking stars and unicorns without requiring the resources to maintain their happy life from products derived by the use of petrol are smack heads.
Get off the bongs.

If I was government, I would have a task force that would go into the homes of people that constantly complain and remove every unnecessary electrical item to live they own, computers, I-phones, vibrators, even if you own anything over a 2 litre engined car and 1 car per household.