New Design for a DH Race Frame

jeremy_2640

Likes Dirt
G'day Everyone,

A friend and myself are design and manufacturing a DH bike frame for our final year uni. project. We are currently looking at customer requirements, we want constructive opinions (i.e. not - this frame is awesome!!!!! and crap like that) from people who meet this criteria:

- More than 2 years riding experience
- Have raced/ridden competitively
- Older than 16 years old

Here are the questions, if you could take some time to answer each question to the best of your ability we would be really happy - and remember this is your chance to influence a brand new Australian DH bike!

What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

What improvements would you make to the products?

And finally and most importantly...

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

I need these answers by next Monday 25th, but feel free to continue suggesting idea's after that as we could include any important things initially missed.

Cheers
Jeremy
 

Crowie

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

the range it whitch they come in to suit any size.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

that curvy crap.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

head tube angel and lowness

What improvements would you make to the products?

just a cleaner looking dh frame no fidily bits


What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

low, light and long
 

curly123

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
i quiet like the durabiltiy.:p

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
wieght. and price:eek:

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?
proformance, price, durablity, looks (gotta have a sick rig)

What improvements would you make to the products?
i think we need a decent well priced rig to get more kids riding help grow the sport:cool:
 

scarecrow8888

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

i like simplicity. the more parts it has the more that can go wrong. like the oranges. simple yet very effective.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

bikes that have to be fully serviced all the time(bushings and bearings greased and yeah) i have a mate who had to pull his bike compleely apart after each ride and fix heaps. now hes selling it and wont ride it. so much forhim blowing 4 grand on it last year. also a good price for the bike frame woould be good. cheaper to make the sport more affordable

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

strength over weight. i heavy yet strong bike means you need to be strong, but a light and weak bike means you have to have deep pockets. if you can get the best of both worlds you deserve a nobel prize.

What improvements would you make to the products?

a simple and easy to work with design. easy to work on too. as hayden said. "no fiddly bits"

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

around 9 inches of travel, good strength and neat and tidy look, like concealed cables (or just well hidden) plush feel. oh and long bikes so i can stop hitting my knees on handlebars/stem/top crown. im 6'3'' and its hard to find a long big bike.

hope these help
 

Painey

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

Not all frames have this but Simplicity.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

Same as above too many gadgets (adjustable geometry etc) It leads to more things that can play up.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

Basically comfortable to ride. Frame size, Geometry.

What improvements would you make to the products?

Lighter weight but this is always an issue with strength.


What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

No weld marks!
 

zaccyboy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
I don't really like most of them, but I like the fact that most frames are going 1.5''.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
Many DH frames nowdays are way to curvey, I love the big fat boxxy look like my mongoose.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?
Would have to be the head angle if that's not right nothing is.
And also BB Height is important to.

What improvements would you make to the products?
Go back to the good old boxxy frames, like Balfa BB7's for an example.
(No Skid Marks) his balfa is sweet, I have ridden it up and down the street lol.

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
Good cable route, nice looking welds (cannondales), 7.5-8'' of travel is sweet and having a bit of ground clearance is nice,
(unlike riding a demo :p).
 

jippa

Likes Bikes
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

the increase in travel and pro pedal/ no bob
What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

each to their own. nothing really

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry

lowness for handelling and a good review

What improvements would you make to the products?

weight reduction


What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

low price tag low centre of gravity. arond 9 inches of travel and a chunky looking frame
__________________
 

kholden_1992

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
high bar raise and bottem bracket on swing arms (mongoos black dimond)

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
high top tubes and low bottem brackets

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH
bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

strength of headtubing and parts of frame that will get in the way of moving over bike



What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
a sick paint job
 

JSPhoto

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
Travel lenght, although we are pushing it now, 9" is comfortable. The 1.5" headtube is a bonus (mainly for strenght). In general the looks, but the newer bike such as 09 norco are just plain dodgy.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
Well like everyone says, cost and weight. I'm also not a fan of how 'bobby' some of the bigger bike can have. ISCG mounts changing at will. The crazy position you have to get your hand into for shock adjustments (glory and the like)

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?
Pedalling efficiency (also to do with shock, but linkage plays a part). Looks, Overall feel of bike (head angle etc. like zaccyboy said, if thats not right the whoel bike feels off). Body position, so stretch and so on.

What improvements would you make to the products?
Reflectors!! :rolleyes:
interchangable ISCG tabs or something of similar fashion, using composites in suitable frame areas, strengthen deraileur hanger (I got no luck in that department), Direct mount 8" disk mounts. I'm sure i have more but thats whats coming ot mind.

What specific features/attributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
Has to look good, or atleast decent. A suitable strength to weight ratio, i don't mind a heavier bike if its stronger. beefy headtube for strength and to hide headset from general wear, a simple yet effective linkage system and diversity for componentry (eg. possible front deralleur hanger, like i mentioned iscg tabs, etc.)
 

Tazed

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The answers to these questions won't help you decide what to build... Everyone dislikes different things.

How about asking for specs people prefer, rather than style?
Like head angle, BB height, etc.

Try to create a point of difference that gives your bike an edge - convertible 1.5"-1/18th replaceable headtube, maybe (bolt in). I dunno, just something that makes the project more than just a copy of what's out there already, if you get my thinking.
 

parker93

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
I like how they have different types of suspension designs (For eg. Single Pivot etc) which allows for different styles of riding.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

Most frames are on the burlier and heavier side of things, also complicated tubing (curvy etc.)

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

Well obviously how it handles different types of terrain, but also weight and of-course the paint job!

What improvements would you make to the products?

Stronger, Lighter (Maybe Titanium) and simpler designs.
 

Unlearn

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
The variety of designs, I'm a fan of most DH bikes (they all have their advantages and disadvantages). ISCG 05 mounts, The geo adjustments available (you can make a DH bike suit a wide variety of people).

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
Curvy tubing ie the 09 Norco's (I hope they ride good cause they certainly dont look good). Companies that design frames knowing things like brake jack will be a big issue, even though its been a well known problem.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?
I'd like to know how well it will peddals without the need for the shock peddaling platform (whether its a good peddaller or not), how active the suspension is under braking, brake jack issues, If theres specific gear the frame has been designed to use (ie a saint rear mech - a mech that mounts to the axel bolt).

What improvements would you make to the products?
More chip resistant paint jobs (If possible), I really have no idea what else, there are so many good designs these days.

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
8, 9 or 10 inches of travel, Geo adjustability (not too much as it will get confusing), straight tubing, bearings in linkages rather than bushings, Active braking and suspension.
 
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kizza01

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

The geometry of current race frames.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

The high cost= low weight, low durability. I would love a light and strong frame, dont mind about price. I want to spend a lot of money and get a few seasons out of it.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

Geometry

What improvements would you make to the products?

Good bearing life and geometry i.e well balanced, low and slack (read the orange 223/224)


What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

See above
 

Cooch

Likes Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)? How the market/products are becoming more scientific and the research dollars being spent on engineering and design. Rather than just cutting a frame in half and joining it with a shock and spring, millions are now being spent on how the bike performs in all areas.

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)? The focus on more travel means better bike... e.g. the V10. What about the focus on how the suspension travels, wheel base length etc. Also, some companies are still like, well if last years model broke here, let's just gusset weld it here.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)? Engineering aspects. Quality of welds, tubing, design of the suspension system, linkages etc.

What improvements would you make to the products? More from the marketing angle - explain to customers how the suspension works and why they've selected particular rear linkages, shocks, design etc. "As this suspension compresses, the wheel base gets longer, hence better high speed handling over rutted track" etc. Not "it has 10 inches and runs 33% sag like a moto - so it has to be good".

And finally and most importantly...

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame? Strong welds, professional finish (paint and construction). Easily rebuildable (linkages, bearings etc. readily available). Industry standard measurements: 135mm rear end or 150mm.... e.g. don't come out with a 172.5mm rear end, saying it's the best - it may be so, but I can't swap out my expensive wheel set.
 

3viltoast3r

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products
Nothing much really, mainly because theres a ton of just thse little problems which realistically dont mean heaps, but will just make our lifes/sport better. Just Ride.
What do you dislike about existing products?
Bloody expensive, and they are just so dam specific. Cant pedal the bugger anywhere and if you do, you have 4K of bike chained to the $40 pole where the whole world can see it. More on the engineering side of it: Having so much dam travel makes it nice and suck up rough stuff, but controlling the bike can get hard when you use 5" of the travel trying to bunny hop and you still cant get the 20kg monster off the ground.
Important issues influencing purchases:
Price. Weight. Efficiency. Strength. For me i think efficiency is the biggest thing if my 16 year old budget didnt mean anything....(Breathe in: The ute will be good, HARDTAIL pride(although i have ridden a few FS bikes)
What improvements need to be made
Frankly i think efficiency is everything. If you built a bike that can pedal like a hardtail, Flickable like a STD and still soak up those big rocks/hucks/etc you could sell it for any reasonable price and be filthy filthy rich.
What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
Considering its a race frame, it has to be green and be sponsored by Monster Energy........Ok but really i dont think race specific frames can be justified........They cost way more, and break way easier......I just dont see in the logic.............But if you really want your answer i think cutting edge technologies are the key (ie state of the art materials, manufacuturing,design,etc,etc)

PS i want final pics :D
 

NH_

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?
The diversity of frames, yours pretty much guaranteed to find a frame with geo/pivot system you want

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?
the in ability of frame manufacturers to produce a frame that feels good for tall riders with long legs and a long arm span (top tubes often too small to get desirable other geo)

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?
Wheelbase, Shock length, Weight, i consider every aspect of geo and spec (bb size, axle size, maintenance)

What improvements would you make to the products?
make everything as stiff as possible, i feel this is overlooked alot, my sunday was a fair bit sloppy in the rear end and when i first got on my 224 i was shocked how much stiffer it was, something which i have grown to love

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?
i love a long wheel base while still feeling small, i like something semi light, i do believe there is such a thing as too light
 

sockman

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What do you like about existing products (DH frames)?

Trend towards light weight materials, efficient pedaling

What do you dislike about existing products (DH frames)?

Looks. Less is more, remember.

What are the most important issues you consider when purchasing a DH bike frame/bike (not considering componentry)?

Weight, cost, looks, geo, resale, build quality

What improvements would you make to the products?

Cheaper (im a tight arse), lighter (heading that way already). Nicer paint jobs

What specific features/atttributes and characterisitics do you desire in a DH race bike frame?

Gunna have to think about this, but must have a good "performance:weight:price" ratio. Proven suspension design (ie: DW link)
Sounds like a pretty interesting project. Ya better post pics!
 

jeremy_2640

Likes Dirt
Axela8 said: The answers to these questions won't help you decide what to build... Everyone dislikes different things.

How about asking for specs people prefer, rather than style?
Like head angle, BB height, etc.

Try to create a point of difference that gives your bike an edge - convertible 1.5"-1/18th replaceable headtube, maybe (bolt in). I dunno, just something that makes the project more than just a copy of what's out there already, if you get my thinking.

Thanks for your replies everyone, some interesting answers coming up (and same bad engrish haha)

I know the answers to these questions won't help me decide what to build specifically but it's a useful part of the design process , I'm doing a customer requirements survey, it will have an influence on the features of the final design, as far as geometry goes we have a general idea of where we are going, the idea of this survey is to identifying core needs of the customer. That said majority of answers so far have been pretty good. Thanks everyone for your input and keep those answers coming....
 

ajay

^Once punched Jeff Kennett. Don't pick an e-fight
Thanks for your replies everyone, some interesting answers coming up (and same bad engrish haha)

I know the answers to these questions won't help me decide what to build specifically but it's a useful part of the design process , I'm doing a customer requirements survey, it will have an influence on the features of the final design, as far as geometry goes we have a general idea of where we are going, the idea of this survey is to identifying core needs of the customer. That said majority of answers so far have been pretty good. Thanks everyone for your input and keep those answers coming....
Sorry this isnt in your format, but take from it what you will.


The geometry is something you'll have to decide while it relates to your suspension design and what not. I think the geometry on paper wont always translate to a good ride if its not considered in conjuction with the bike as a whole.

Things that get my goat with some top frames is the compatibility - or rather, their incompatibility.

Rear wheel spacing/BB width and chain guide guide tabs need to thought through - along with the swingarm/stay position.

No overly complicated (more potential fragility) axel systems.

Hanger - make em cheap and easy to replace - some companies issue these bomb proof hangers that dont actually do what they're intended to do.

Consider mud clearence (some bikes will stop rolling due to the amount of mud that is allowd to collect on the frame).

longevity of the finish.

Headset - keep it standard, none of this intergrated, 1 1/8:1 1/2 inch jobs.

Use a common post diameter

Avoid uncommon bearings in your swingarm as they can get rather expensive on replacement.

Think out your cable routing - maybe think of how a race plate will attach and where the cable will lie, maybe you can locate a cable guide to clean up the area...?

Dont over engineer for the sake of it.

Finally - good luck!
 

Calvin M

Likes Dirt
What improvements need to be made. Bull bar and roll cage please:D

1.5 Steer tube so 0 stack head set can be used to keep front end low.

Alls balls bearings standed. No cage just balls.

Greasable DU bushes.
 
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