New Santa Cruz bikes - Butcher and Nickel

maxwolfie said:
Ivan, how do you find your Heckler?
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The Heckler is good. It’s a fun bike to ride, is built tough, and is pretty versatile. I don't notice most of the negatives that people have with the design, and it is nice and plush on the trail compared to some others I have tried. I know someone who went from a Heckler to a Blur, then back to a Heckler because the Heckler was more "fun". Everyone wants something different out of a bike I guess.

If I could change a few things, I would give it a 68 or 67 head angle, increase frame stiffness, and add an inch to the top tube length of the medium and drop a little weight. The current gen Heckler has gone to a bigger pivot and different swingarm design to improve stiffness, and added 7mm more travel over my design. It also has a better replaceable dérailleur hanger design.

The Butcher seems to address nearly all of my wishlist apart from the weight, But I don't think I'd buy one. I'm not sure why, but maybe just for the sake of a change. I keep drooling over Lapierre Zesty's and staring at AUD to GBP conversion rates:eek:
 
I can`t believe the old myth of brake jack on single pivots still exists, They are effected by braking forces no differently than any other design. Nearly all motorbikes are linkage driven single pivots, they exits in the same universe with the same physics so why haven`t they developed there own version of the "magical isolating force`s pivot". It is the riders mass causing the bike to pitch forward under braking that is the problem, and has nothing to do with how many pivots a bike has. The effect is a greater problem on bicycles due to the fact that a rider accounts for a greater percentage of the overall mass than the bike. A single pivot or virtual pivot bike can be designed with more anti squat and a longer wheelbase or lower bottom bracket to minimize the effect of central mass shifts under braking. You will often read about this in magazine reviews of some single pivot bikes and not mentioned in other reviews of the same manufacture`s bike, but in its single pivot down hill version which tend to have longer wheel bases and deal better with the mass shifts of the rider and nothing to do with the fact it is a single pivot. Any one interested in technical can go here http://www.rdrop.com/~/twest/mtb/pathAnalysis/index.html For a read on the physics of such things. It was writen years ago and refers to some older bikes, But it is still the same universe:D
 
brutasauras said:
I can`t believe the old myth of brake jack on single pivots still exists, They are effected by braking forces no differently than any other design. Nearly all motorbikes are linkage driven single pivots, they exits in the same universe with the same physics so why haven`t they developed there own version of the "magical isolating force`s pivot". It is the riders mass causing the bike to pitch forward under braking that is the problem, and has nothing to do with how many pivots a bike has. The effect is a greater problem on bicycles due to the fact that a rider accounts for a greater percentage of the overall mass than the bike. A single pivot or virtual pivot bike can be designed with more anti squat and a longer wheelbase or lower bottom bracket to minimize the effect of central mass shifts under braking. You will often read about this in magazine reviews of some single pivot bikes and not mentioned in other reviews of the same manufacture`s bike, but in its single pivot down hill version which tend to have longer wheel bases and deal better with the mass shifts of the rider and nothing to do with the fact it is a single pivot. Any one interested in technical can go here http://www.rdrop.com/~/twest/mtb/pathAnalysis/index.html For a read on the physics of such things. It was writen years ago and refers to some older bikes, But it is still the same universe:D
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I closed the window when I saw this:

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How do you guys predict that the Butcher/Nickel would ride in comparison to a Reign?
I guess it's a bit hard to say without any real world test rides..... I can't wait till mid June!
 
maxwolfie said:
How do you guys predict that the Butcher/Nickel would ride in comparison to a Reign?
I guess it's a bit hard to say without any real world test rides..... I can't wait till mid June!
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I think the butcher will be like a reign 1 but unlike the reign it will work properly look good and hold its resale value . The butcher with a set of Lyrics will be the perfect Aussi AM bike .
 
Yeah, I am in a bit of a predicament. Basically I don't want anything slacker/more AM/FR than a 2008 Reign 1..Unless it can be slacker and still pedal up hills just as well (somehow? this would be preferable even as it would allow a bit of light FR/DH).. If anything, I'd like to shave a kg or so, and retain the same/similar HA. I'll try and hold out though I need a bike before June......
 
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maxwolfie said:
Yeah, I am in a bit of a predicament. Basically I don't want anything slacker/more AM/FR than a 2008 Reign 1..Unless it can be slacker and still pedal up hills just as well (somehow? this would be preferable even as it would allow a bit of light FR/DH).. If anything, I'd like to shave a kg or so, and retain the same/similar HA. I'll try and hold out though I need a bike before June......
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HA is not the sole characteristic that defines the climbing ability of a bike. Chainstay length, Seat Angle, your personal seat height and top tube length will all have as much of an effect on a bikes climbing ability as HA does.

Do not be scared by a 68 head angle when you are looking at 150mm travel bikes. It has been mentioned before that you roughly lose 1 degree of HA for every inch (25mm) of extra fork height. SO from this, the bike with a 68 HA and 150mm fork with have the same HA as a 69 HA bike with 125mm fork when the fork on the 150mm bike is compressed to 125mm (by TALAS or just in a dynamic situation out on the trail).
 
J@se said:
Talk is it'll be carbon.
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Well they want to have a 3 inch stock which will add weight to the currant frame , but they also need to shed weight from the currant shape . The RCX also added weight to the frame . Maybe carbon + air and a 1 1/5 head tube and lower stand over . But more likely a 3 inch stroke and vivid , slightly refined frame with weight savings . Its funny , when they brought out the 08 frame they say they tested 2.8 and 3 inch stroke rear shocks back to back and said that there was no performance gain .
 
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