NOBMOB Censorship

[Nerf Herder]

Firstly, I'll state that I'm with Rob in terms of censorship.

Its important to note where we, as a community, are at in terms of negotiations. We are not in a position of power, sure some departments and levels of government are more open to the benefits of granting access ... but in the end we are "cap in hand, beggars" looking to gain access. Obviously, advocates have to compromise to gain access ... compromise is not the right word when your a beggar, but lets run with that.

So, as we need to give and take, we need to be able to give some things back in order to be able to gain access ... so again "Take" is not the right word to use when you are a beggar.

What are the things we can give back
i) trail rationalisation
ii) stopping illegal / unapproved trail construction
iii) supply volunteer labour.

Jumping ahead and presuming that access is now a given ... those 3 little sacrifices aren't a big deal, I would hope and most rational people would agree. eg, 1 good track is better then several shite tracks; why do you need to build illegally when there are legit tracks you can put your effort into; people actually understand that many hands make light work and less work = more riding for all.

But in our current situation where legal access is not a guarantee and instead is a battle against old ways of conservative thinking ... then unapproved trails are still a source, for many, to gain access to riding opportunities ... even if they are not the best quality trails.

This is where things have to change ... again understanding that we are beggars and don't have a right to access ... then if we are to progress then in my opinion we need to be more aware that new unapproved trails in an area where advocates are attempting to gain legitimate access will harm efforts. But more importantly fracking not bloody talking about it on public forums.

I remember a time when mentioning secret trails was just not done ... but now we have video, google maps, organised trail invasions and general bragging rights that you actually know where secret trail number 1 is.

I will confess that I am guilty of this at times ... however, I would hope that I was somewhat cryptic about it and less obvious ... but from now on, I'll not talk about unapproved trails as it stuffs up the hard work of the poor schmuck advocates that often gets stupid unthinking posts thrown back at them whilst talking to the powers that be. I'm at a loss as to why unapproved trails / trail work needs to be discussed openly in the first place.

In the end, I think builders need to realise where we are at, and if We, as a community do not work together then things will not likely change.

 

[bikesarefun]

My concern is that this community based ethic is being weakened by big brothers attempts to manipulate of public opinion.
Anyone that can harness this powerful resource will become powerful themselves however if this power is obtained by deceit we will all lose.

Yo D-Man - was that a quote from spiderman?

 

[BM Epic]

Firstly, I'll state that I'm with Rob in terms of censorship.

Its important to note where we, as a community, are at in terms of negotiations. We are not in a position of power, sure some departments and levels of government are more open to the benefits of granting access ... but in the end we are "cap in hand, beggars" looking to gain access. Obviously, advocates have to compromise to gain access ... compromise is not the right word when your a beggar, but lets run with that.

So, as we need to give and take, we need to be able to give some things back in order to be able to gain access ... so again "Take" is not the right word to use when you are a beggar.

What are the things we can give back
i) trail rationalisation
ii) stopping illegal / unapproved trail construction
iii) supply volunteer labour.

Jumping ahead and presuming that access is now a given ... those 3 little sacrifices aren't a big deal, I would hope and most rational people would agree. eg, 1 good track is better then several shite tracks; why do you need to build illegally when there are legit tracks you can put your effort into; people actually understand that many hands make light work and less work = more riding for all.

But in our current situation where legal access is not a guarantee and instead is a battle against old ways of conservative thinking ... then unapproved trails are still a source, for many, to gain access to riding opportunities ... even if they are not the best quality trails.

This is where things have to change ... again understanding that we are beggars and don't have a right to access ... then if we are to progress then in my opinion we need to be more aware that new unapproved trails in an area where advocates are attempting to gain legitimate access will harm efforts. But more importantly fracking not bloody talking about it on public forums.

I remember a time when mentioning secret trails was just not done ... but now we have video, google maps, organised trail invasions and general bragging rights that you actually know where secret trail number 1 is.

I will confess that I am guilty of this at times ... however, I would hope that I was somewhat cryptic about it and less obvious ... but from now on, I'll not talk about unapproved trails as it stuffs up the hard work of the poor schmuck advocates that often gets stupid unthinking posts thrown back at them whilst talking to the powers that be. I'm at a loss as to why unapproved trails / trail work needs to be discussed openly in the first place.

In the end, I think builders need to realise where we are at, and if We, as a community do not work together then things will not likely change.

I am with you totally Al, we all know how things can come back to bite you in the bum, there are lots of interested parties trolling the web just looking for a chance to throw stuff that is said straight back at you, making you look foolish and childish, god knows we have a couple of them in our fights, we both know that they do not fight by fair means!..secondly, i have had my run in with Rob, but in the end he was right, posting up what i thought were harmless photos could have been used against us to take us down, so i think that the NobMob has got it about right!..thanks screaming....i mean Al!range:

 

[unitec]

Firstly, I'll state that I'm with Rob in terms of censorship.

Its important to note where we, as a community, are at in terms of negotiations. We are not in a position of power, sure some departments and levels of government are more open to the benefits of granting access ... but in the end we are "cap in hand, beggars" looking to gain access. Obviously, advocates have to compromise to gain access ... compromise is not the right word when your a beggar, but lets run with that.

So, as we need to give and take, we need to be able to give some things back in order to be able to gain access ... so again "Take" is not the right word to use when you are a beggar.

What are the things we can give back
i) trail rationalisation
ii) stopping illegal / unapproved trail construction
iii) supply volunteer labour.

Jumping ahead and presuming that access is now a given ... those 3 little sacrifices aren't a big deal, I would hope and most rational people would agree. eg, 1 good track is better then several shite tracks; why do you need to build illegally when there are legit tracks you can put your effort into; people actually understand that many hands make light work and less work = more riding for all.

But in our current situation where legal access is not a guarantee and instead is a battle against old ways of conservative thinking ... then unapproved trails are still a source, for many, to gain access to riding opportunities ... even if they are not the best quality trails.

This is where things have to change ... again understanding that we are beggars and don't have a right to access ... then if we are to progress then in my opinion we need to be more aware that new unapproved trails in an area where advocates are attempting to gain legitimate access will harm efforts. But more importantly fracking not bloody talking about it on public forums.

I remember a time when mentioning secret trails was just not done ... but now we have video, google maps, organised trail invasions and general bragging rights that you actually know where secret trail number 1 is.

I will confess that I am guilty of this at times ... however, I would hope that I was somewhat cryptic about it and less obvious ... but from now on, I'll not talk about unapproved trails as it stuffs up the hard work of the poor schmuck advocates that often gets stupid unthinking posts thrown back at them whilst talking to the powers that be. I'm at a loss as to why unapproved trails / trail work needs to be discussed openly in the first place.

In the end, I think builders need to realise where we are at, and if We, as a community do not work together then things will not likely change.

Nerf,
I think your post pretty sums up the problem and that is a distorted view of what MTB is.
It assumes that MTB = XC riding and trail advocacy = Access to national parks.
It assumes that we all want to kick down the barriers to National parks when most people would prefer to have somewhere close to home to have a ride after a hard day.
It also incorrectly assumes that unauthorised trail building damages trail advocacy efforts when time after time we hear how it is the biggest reason authorities are moving to authorise trails.
In fact way more trails are obtained by legalizing unauthorized trails than are obtained by creating new ones.
Sure it may make trail advocates feel uncomfortable in a meeting when authorities rub their nose in the whole unauthorised trail thing but if they simply grow a back bone & start representing all riders they should be fine.
a few more points from your post
· 1 track is not better that 3 shite tracks if that track is an XC track and riders want to ride jumps.
· legally built trails may be better when it comes to XC however when it comes to Freeride or dirt jumps authorities are not even in the ball park.
As far as your 3 sacrifices go:-
1. Trail Rationalization.
The majority of unauthorized trails are freeride & dirt jump trails and you are asking that these be "rationalized" to make way for access for XC?
2. Stop unauthorised trail building.
If you are an XC rider you most likely have a massive network of trails to ride and as such have no need to build however for those that don't have trails. Sorry "no dig no ride"
3. Supply volunteer labour.
Already doing it.
Back on topic
Every time I have been in a meeting with authorities they seem to have trouble understanding that MTB is more that just XC and every time I go on a forum I seem to be reading the same miss information being repeated time after time and can't help thinking that someone is taking riders for a ride.
If a new rider buys his first bike what's the first thing he does when he gets home?
He Google's MTB trails and is immediately directed to NOBMOB that advertises a full complement of illegal trails.
The riders signs up and unwittingly becomes a member of an advocacy group that not only doesn't care what he thinks but will actively sensor is views if they don't fall into the owners narrow view of what MTB is.

 

[bikesarefun]

Nerf,
I think your post pretty sums up the problem and that is a distorted view of what MTB is.
It assumes that MTB = XC riding and trail advocacy = Access to national parks.
It assumes that we all want to kick down the barriers to National parks when most people would prefer to have somewhere close to home to have a ride after a hard day.
It also incorrectly assumes that unauthorised trail building damages trail advocacy efforts when time after time we hear how it is the biggest reason authorities are moving to authorise trails.
In fact way more trails are obtained by legalizing unauthorized trails than are obtained by creating new ones.
Sure it may make trail advocates feel uncomfortable in a meeting when authorities rub their nose in the whole unauthorised trail thing but if they simply grow a back bone & start representing all riders they should be fine.

YES. YES. YES.

And I can vouch that over the years unitec has done more for trails around my local area than most "advocates".

At the end of the day, if the advocates get too caught up with XC, and ignore the guys with the shovels, advocacy will fail. The guys with the shovels will always have trails to ride.

 

[wilddemon]

I'm biased to the northern beaches too. Got a problem with that?

People are going to fight for trails in their local area first. That doesn't mean other people can't get involved with TrailCare and projects like it to push advocacy in their own areas. It's good to have a framework for people to use for advocacy projects.

You practically disqualified your second statement with your first. Where do I advocate trails in my area, not yours?

 

[Nerf Herder]

Unsure where in my blurb you pick up mtb = xc

Similarly, I'm unsure where you read in that piece that national parks are the only end game in town. Menai is not national park and has DH, Knapsack is not National park and has DH ... Lake parra, although now lost due to illegal trail building of DJs, is not national park.

OBR was lost due to illegal trail building at Nichols
Lake parra was lost as above due to illegal trail building

Both of which were advocacy efforts that could have been positive outcomes if the illegal trail activity was not present. On several occasions Councillors in different councils have used this phrase "Why should we reward people doing the wrong thing" ... So I think you are somewhat biased in your views that illegal trails do not harm advocacy efforts.

The easiest way to grow a backbone as you put it, is for you to attend and hold their hand ... you seem to imply that an XC'er, as you seem to call all advocates, will fight your battles ... but they seem to have different goals and objectives, so would it not be better to get involved in the advocacy yourself. Given, you obviously disagree with the current approach, would it not be in your interest to lead by example and be involved in that uncomfortable meeting with land managers? not as part of the crowd, but in those smaller one on one efforts, in those attempts to educate them to your needs. I would be interested to see if your views change when its your efforts that are at risk of being wasted, due to actions outside of your control.

My aim Dunc is not to highlight where I think you are wrong ... you seem to forget I'm a downhiller *shrugs ... but instead maybe encourage you and more downhillers and freeriders to get involved ... grow your own backbone and fight for trails that you want ... rather then depending on others to do it for you ... maybe in this way we will get more DH/FR opportunities, in similar quantities to those obtained by current and past advocates and clubs?

So in the end you are right ... there are hypocrisies all around ... so what will this thread do to reverse any of it ? ...

Thought I'd end on something we both can agree with irate:

 

[nrthrnben]

Ok, want to make a real diference, nows your chance!

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/sho...Help-Needed!&p=2475380&viewfull=1#post2475380

http://nobmob.com/node/32639

Agree with comments re: DH/FR not getting a big look in, most advocacy efforts on the beaches seem to be biased toward XC, however i think this is slowly changing, also agree that Downhillers have to jump into the Front line a bit more, we dig, but nows the time to be heard.

We are at a pivotal point for riding on the Northern Beaches, formal access is being implemented at by Councils, Crown and National Parks to name a few!

I want to see more formal and sustainable trails like these on the Beaches

1. Shuttleable Gravity Trails
2. Freeride Trails
3. Epic AM Trails

 

[nrthrnben]

You practically disqualified your second statement with your first. Where do I advocate trails in my area, not yours?

I dont know what you where trying to achieve with that post, anyway

He was saying he is biased toward the Northern Beaches, biased is not 100%, so he also helps out in other area's.

He then encourages others to do the same :focus:

 

[wilddemon]

round and round we go!

I dont know what you where trying to achieve with that post, anyway

He was saying he is biased toward the Northern Beaches, biased is not 100%, so he also helps out in other area's.

He then encourages others to do the same

bikesarefun quoted Nmag as suggesting that trailcare are biased to northern beaches. bikesarefun then said that people are going to fight for trails in their local area first. Ok, I am a person, so by bikesarefun's argument, and rightly so, I am going to fight for trails in my local area first. Why would I put effort behind a group that puts (the majority of) that effort behind fighting for trails somewhere else. Yeah he didn't say 100%, he said biased, same as is trailcare. What he didn't say was that "he also helps out in other area's.". That was what you derived yourself from his comments.

Then you go on to post links to gain support for downhill and NOBMOB (northern beaches). I'm all for you riding legitimate downhill trails around northern beaches, but there is no benefit to me.

I don't know what was so complicated about my comment that it needed further explanation

I have been asking around about trail advocacy in my area (Illawarra). If anyone has an Illawarra bandwagon for me to jump on, let me know.

 

[thecat]

At the end of the day, if the advocates get too caught up with XC, and ignore the guys with the shovels, advocacy will fail. The guys with the shovels will always have trails to ride.

At the end of the day if they guys with the shovels don't also get vocal in advocating for the style of riding they enjoy their trails will remain unauthorised and under threat of being shut down.

I build the types of trails that I like to ride (And before you assume I'm just an xc advocate you might want to have a bit of a search). Similarly people will be reluctant to volunteer their time advocating for trails they are unlikely to ride themselves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. DHers generally are more motivated to help out in the building stage, XC riders generally are more willing to put in the hard yards advocating (and as someone who does a lot of both I can tell you the building is the easier of the two by far).

What we need more people willing to do both.

You shouldn't expect people to advocate for you preferred style of riding any more then they should expect you to build trails that cater for them but wouldn't interest you. However if we both help each other out wouldn't we both be better off?

The question of why should people help out advocating for trail or areas that they'll never ride is a good one.
I try and help out where ever I can, if someone posts about an advocacy issue it literally takes 5mins to fire off and email in support. I can do that while I'm at work or before I go to bed. It takes nothing away from my riding time or my digging time.

How does supporting another area benefit me directly? Every win is a tread on the ladder. Every approved trail is a precedent I can take to my own land managers and say "look this is what's happening here, this is how they got around that issue, that is how they over come this problem."

Nerf,
I think your post pretty sums up the problem and that is a distorted view of what MTB is.
It assumes that MTB = XC riding and trail advocacy = Access to national parks.

I don't think Al ever menetioned XC or National Parks in his post.

It also incorrectly assumes that unauthorised trail building damages trail advocacy efforts when time after time we hear how it is the biggest reason authorities are moving to authorise trails.

It's just speaking from experience. Al was right behind the push to legalised the DH trails at Old Bathurst Rd, surprisingly this push was initiated by council. Working with club advocates such as myself and steve Humphries (despite Old bat never being considered as a club track) Council openned up communication with rider reps lead by Al (A non local blow in)

Council prepared a report recommending to make the trail official and set the area aside for MTB.

Council organised maintenance days working with local riders and putting resources in to cleaning things up

About halfway through the process council officiers contacted us and said they were having issues with an illegal trail near by and that the NIMBY brigade were getting organised in their objections. Several times council staff asked us to warn riders that the illegal trails were giving them grief and that the objectors were getting political so it was starting to impact the process for approving Old Bat.


Tread after thread was posted here and else where pleading with riders to avoid the illegal trail and for the builders to hang low.

A limitted number of riders/builders ignored these pleas and the result was that by the time the report to approve the Old Bat trails went to a council the NIMBYs had become political enough to force the Councilors to vote against their own staffs recommendations. Instead voting to close down not only the old Bat trails but all DH trails on the escarpment.

This has set advocacy efforts for legalised DH trails in the Blue MT back a long way. It now been almost 18 month from when the council organised maintenance days were canceled at Old Bat. It's about 12 months since the trails got shut down. We've gone from council wanting to approved existing trails to having those trail closed and having a real battle to have authorised trail built to replace them. Council staff want to provide the trails but the elected councilors are reluctant to upset the people who vote them in.

All because a few riders built an illegal (and poorly constructed BTW) trail and refused to stop riding it for 6 month while council approved trails 3 streets away.

These NIMBY have now started a crusaide against all mtb in the Blue Mts.


If that is not a clear case of unauthorised trail building damages trail advocacy efforts I don't know what is.

More recently we've had dramas at Lithgow. You have no idea how much it pisses me off that after years of working behind the scene to get permission to dig then to have illegal trails popping up... The builders didn't lift a finger to help get our trail approved, they don't spend hours defending mtb against over zealous NIMBYs who think they should be consulted in every thing and have the say in what can and can't happen, they don't turn up to official trail build days but are happy to put in hours making an illegal trail in a prominent area through endangered vegetation, leaving me to cop the brunt of councils ire and a barrage of extreme greenies whinging, more hours of my life waisted in needless council meeting....


Anyway I digress....



Everyone needs to work together advocating, and building no matter what style you are into.

 

[FR Drew]

(not involved with nobmob)

Unitec, trust me, trails advocates don't just push XC trails. While I can only speak for folks in Canberra, we've been very busy for years pushing legal FR nd DH trails, technical trail features and Dirt Jumps.

As has been said, it seems the XC folk are more willing than many other demographics to put in the hours doing advocacy work for legal trails.

 

[wilddemon]

mutual benefit

Good on you thecat. I'll back you and your advocacy any day, regardless of where or genre. It helps that you don't think that the world revolves around the bluies and your genre. One hand washes the other.

 

[bikesarefun]

A problem does arise when the XC boys start bad mouthing dirt jumpers on a public forum, and then delete any posts by the dirt jumpers when they try to defend themselves. And that why we have this thread.... hehehe....

 

[Moggio]

Sure it may make trail advocates feel uncomfortable in a meeting when authorities rub their nose in the whole unauthorised trail thing but if they simply grow a back bone & start representing all riders they should be fine.

Sorry to bring up this quote but it gets to me.

This isn't about backbone, its all about you have lost the arguement before you start. You have less bargaining power in the poltical dialog. This isn't some you talk more and convince and argue with your opposition and convince them type deal. There are no emotive arguements for this stuff. Its up to you to prove the benefit, that you can deliver on what the authorities want out of it, that it won't cost too much, annoy the locals so the local member loses next election or that it is legal to do environmentally.

The simple fact is non-mtbers don't give a stuff about mountain biking just like I don't care at all about sports such as Curling. They know nothing about it and why should they? All they know is the stuff that goes public which is illegal trails, riders being rude, ambulances and maybe lycra arses. Numbers lobbying only prove that its worth it for the politcal people to try and deal with the noisy masses but it sure isn't an end in itself.

The real us and them attitude doesn't work either. We have in our area some of the most full on greenie types. Some of them have done truly great things over the years for the environment that I think the majority of people, and the riders, would steadfastly support. This issue we don't see eye to eye for various reasons, but a major one is the paragraph above... they don't know or care about mtbing. Same with residents who object its dealing with their concerns, some of which are paranoia and some of which are very real and should be understood by the lobbiers.

This "represnting all riders" is annoying for me as I am no DHer yet I have been lobbying on a DH trail for the last 2 years. Same with a lot of other "XC boys" I know lobbying for DH trails as well.

 

[Mitch243]

Snip

Holy shit bloke. You need to read with your eyes not your imagination.

 

[nrthrnben]

This thread is about the Northern Beaches

There seems to be advocates from all over, posting and wrongfully taking offence.

The comments about advocacy here are about advocacy efforts in the past on the Northern Beaches,which seems to be changing for the better,slowly.

Yes in most cases around the world, advocates are more well rounded, here on the NORTHERN BEACHES however, its taking a little longer.

 

[nrthrnben]

Everyone needs to work together advocating, and building no matter what style you are into.

Agreed,spot on!

 

[Ben-e]

Yes in most cases around the world, advocates are more well rounded, here on the NORTHERN BEACHES however, its taking a little longer.

Yer, for sure. The Northern Beaches is definitely one of the more narrow minded areas within the Greater Sydney region in this sense, I blame it on an aging population of conservative baby-boomers, unwilling to support anything that doesn't include a community center attached to a cafe. These conservatives drive, and extremely heavily, the political structure of the local governments, they too easily sway the minds of counselors.

There are plans in the pipeline though. I was recently chatting to one of Pittwater Councils natural resources managers and they were explaining the case of cycling and the Northern Beaches. The difficulty is that Pittwater Council has more 'reserve' land per head than any other council. This includes the management of beaches, street frontage, general green space etc etc... This results in a lack of resources, compounding the issue further. However, we spoke about illegal trail building and its acknowledged that, given the popularity of the sport and its growth, there is a significant lack of riding facilities (hence the promotion of the Mona Vale skate park facility, which failed to get support from the older community members!). There are multiple options around, such as Ingleside for example, but given the land ownership in the area, the issue is complex and will take some time to iron-out the wrinkles. IMO people in council are beginning to understand that to prevent the construction of illegal trails (and thus erosion, weed invasion, trespassing, destruction of native fauna and flora etc), you have to provide a management frame (management is a better stance than prohibition), the argument is also very sustainable-focused; environmentally sustainable, financially sustainable and sustainable in the sense that the community will take ownership of these facilities to encourage maintenance and to prevent the obvious negative activities. Once these boxes are ticked, the light will turn green and the state gov will sling some coin. Green-space grant anyone?

EDIT:

Just also like to add that the land ownership in the area is complex, due in part to how much fragmentation (of ownership) there is, this was another issue raised.

 

[Nmag]

The censorship being discussed is about advocacy, and it's being implied that advocacy on the northern beaches is at the forefront of advocacy in Sydney. I'll outline some facts and people can read into them if they like:

HSMBA is on the global riders network and is fading into the history now that the objectives have been achieved.

SNORC (which is functioning as a re-badged HSMBA) is not on the global riders network. There would be a reason for that.

TrailCare being Northern Beaches biased is not a comment I made to imply that "why not other areas"....

TrailCare is not on the Global Riders network. There would be a reason for that.

The Global Riders network is administered by the web author of NobMob.