Noob to downhill - need help with choosing a bike

[slowmick]

Over the last couple of years i have made the effort to get out and ride my Specialized Enduro as it was intended. I raced 1½ season of the gravity enduro series in Victoria and really enjoyed it. But the carbon frame on my enduro died after doing it.

I really enjoyed riding at Bright, Buller, Falls Creek and Narbethong but I avoided the Long Gully downhill nights and Baw Baw as I figured they would be too much for the bike.

I can't help feeling that I had a downhill bike for these places my enduro might last a little longer. that said there are so many downhill bikes. i have no idea where to start.

Are downhill bikes sized the same as trail bikes? can you put longer stem on them to stretch them out if necessary? riding up and down the street doesn't seem to make sense for a downhill bike.

I am around 192 cm and 115 kg and ride a large Enduro. My only experience with actual downhill bikes was a Rocky Mountain flatline @ Bromont that had been flogged within an inch of its' life and a carbon Trek Session @ Whistler. I took a Norco Aurum for a spin outside a shop and it seemed really low. not sure that it how downhill bikes feel.

I don't want to buy a shitter to try out downhill as i know i enjoy it and if it much crappier than the Enduro i would guess ti will stay in the shed.

Sorry for rambling - I just find downhill bikes really confusing.

 

[Ezkaton]

Trying a DH bike outside a shop isn't going to really give a good impression on how they feel.
They will feel crap until you start pointing them downwards!
What was your impression of the Session when trying it at Whistler?

I guess you could say they're sized similarly... I'm about 190-191cm tall on a large trail bike and a large DH bike both with 50mm stems, but some larges will feel more like mediums depending on the brand.

Some people also do prefer a smaller feeling bike though as they're easier to throw around.
Seeing as you're not sitting down on them and pedalling around a lot, I think it's not that big a deal.

50mm stems seem to be the 'standard' for a DH bike, with some going 35mm... The longest direct mount stem I've seen is 60mm if you need to stretch it out a bit.

But I think you're right in saying they feel really low.

Long, low and squishy, haha.

I'd say just look around at all brands, find a few frame and suspension designs that look/sound appealing to you and go from there.
Maybe find some forum users of similar height/weight who are nice enough to give you a spin on their machine.

 

[Klips]

Also being a noob, should you look for one that is suited to the purpose of your riding? e.g. scott has the gambler (which I think is their race frame, as it stays planted) and the voltage (park frame, great for sick air and #edits). How much of a difference does it actually make in the real world for people who aren't Troy Brosnan?

 

[pink poodle]

Just buy whatever I'm selling...

Actual advice though, DH bikes tend to be designed with a low and slack feeling. Low gives you plenty of room on top for manoeuvring the bike, while slack gives a feeling of stability. Suspension design should also be considered. Do you want a smooth plush ride or a responsive and snappy bike?

Best to avoid long stems. They will make your bike steer like a bus.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I am around 192 cm and 115 kg and ride a large Enduro.

Criteria 1: must be available in XL.

Your the same size as me, if it's not an XL frame, then it''s too small and you'll tend to hang off the back to much and compromise it's handling. Agree on avoiding the long stem, sign of frame being too small.

I'm not sure if there is a modern DH bike from any major brand this is shit? It pretty much depends on how much your willing to spend, what spec you and and the suspension system you like (although with eyes closed you may not tell the difference?).

 

[Dozer]

I've been riding downhill for twenty years, am a bit taller than you and have a man's body (100kg+). Here's my insight into a downhill bike vibe:
-Brakes: Must have good brakes that activate when you pull the lever. I'm not a fan of brakes that engage too far into the lever stroke as I get some fade by the end of some runs. I know how to bleed my brakes and I have them quite touchy. I also run metal sintered pads as they don't fade as much.
-Bars: Bars need to be wider than your shoulder span. That increases your control.
-Suspension: I only run air sprung suspension as it gives me more responsive tuning options. Lots of times you'll hear people saying you run your suspension off your sag setup but that theory goes to pooh when you're heavier. I run mine enough that the bike moves just enough under me when I'm stationary so I know my rebound is responsive and I don't measure the sag. I measure how much travel I'm using on a run and adjust it accordingly. In saying that, you want to run all of the travel on any given track. To gauge an instant feel of whether a bike will feel good in the parking lot is if you can stiffen it up too much so that it feels too stiff. Work on the settings from there to soften it, slow the rebound or speed things up.
-Tyres: Tyre pressure is very important and does determine a lot of your grip. I run my tyres a touch over 30 psi and have found that suits me the best after trying almost every option (tubed, tubeless, low pressure, high pressure etc etc). I don't run tubeless, I found it no different to tubed and when you're in the middle of nowhere, it's easier to fix a flat with a tube.
Flex: You'll always hear some creaking in a bike but that can be fixed pretty easily. What you don't want to feel is the bike .....hmmm, what's the word? Lets say "wallowing" under load. I have ridden a bike with a light rear triangle and it felt horrible, you'll notice it pretty quickly. I say stay away from it as big guys give the rear end of a bike a hammering.
-Wheels: Spoke tension is pretty crucial, you want a true running wheel with good tension that won't wander in the corners (flex for a better word).
As for comfort and size, if it feels like you're over the front of the bike in the parking lot when you stand up then don't be too put off. You can cure that with bars and stem and even suspension compression. If your legs feel cramped and feel like they may hit the bars then yeah, it's too tight in the cockpit and you need to stretch it.

I've never had an XL downhill frame, the brands I've had only go as big as a large and all have been 26" wheels. I had a 2009 Glory that was a great size then tried a new shaped frame from 2010 onwards and it was shorter in the cockpit. I've car park tested a current Glory in 650b and it's really short and wouldn't suit me without some serious mods. My current Demo is perfect though, I am balanced very well on the bike and capable of anything my mortgage permits.
All in all, as far as a car park test goes; if you can pedal it standing up without it jerking around under you and you can corner it on the gravel with a foot out and it goes where you point it then yep, that size should suit and you'd be able to make your own adjustments to get it suited to you. Never underestimate what a downhill bike is capable of, they feel better the faster you hit stuff but telling your brain that is another story.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I've car park tested a current Glory in 650b and it's really short and wouldn't suit me without some serious mods.

I'm not sure why, but the glory is avaliable in XL everywhere but Australia - considering we are one of the taller nations on the planet?, When I've gone from a L to XL is immediately noticeable, just feels more planted in every aspect of riding (except really tight corners).

Few brands are doing XL's now days, which is a lot more than years gone by, Demo comes in X-long, boutique brands - Turner, Pivot Santa Cruz..,

 

[Ezkaton]

Never underestimate what a downhill bike is capable of, they feel better the faster you hit stuff but telling your brain that is another story.

I can +1 this... some stuff I've been going way too fast than my ability should allow (in my brain), and the bike just ate it up, kept me steady and I came out on the other side alive (and a little shaken, but excited).
They give such an awesome, planted feeling. I know it's probably cliché to say, but, they are definitely very confidence inspiring things to ride.

 

[T-Rex]

Dunno about the other two tracks, but if you have been running your Enduro hard at Bright and Buller, I'm not surprised it's rooted.

Def time for you to get a proper DH bike.

As others have said, there's no point testing one anywhere other than a DH track. They are a very specialised bike and feel like crap unless being pushed hard down a rough track.

I suggest you head up to Buller as soon as the snow melts, and rent yourself a size Large, and ride every gravity track in the place, including Klingsporn and the river trail. That will give you a good idea if a large is the right sized frame for you, and give you a feel for what a DH bike feels like on a variety of terrain, before you shell out your hard earned $$ to buy one.

 

[slowmick]

wow. thank you so much guys. so much to work through.

Ezkaton - from what i remember of the Session it had three personalities - it was like a tricycle on the ride between the lifts and the trails, it was stable and planted the big open jumpy trails (Crank it up) and it felt like way too much bike on the tight twisty stuff (Karate Monkey). was kinda wondering - what drove/inspired you to build up the Morewood rather than buy off the shelf?

Klips - not interested in winning races - just want to have fun getting to the bottom.

MWI - i have been looking at a bunch of frames. i was getting confused about the sizing. i assume that the reach is the important measurement on a downhill bike as there's not much sitting down. I assume a DH bike should have a longer reach than my enduro as it will have a smaller stem.

what i have found so far is:


The XL V10 doesn't actually seem to be that big - or am i missing something?

That and the demo and glory seem to be really close to each other - which confused me with Dozers comment that the glory seemed small.

A lot of newer bikes seems to come with the SRAM guide brakes. should i be budgeting too change these straight away or give the a bat and see if they can slow down fatty?

 

[spoozbucket]

Testing a coil sprung DH bike in a shop will make it feel stupidly low, I am a fatty that fluctuates in weight quite a bit so I have two rear springs that are 25Lb apart, the Bos shock seemed really sensitive to having the spring rate spot on.

If you have a pretty decent budget you could look at a Liteville, only 180mm travel but they do make an XL frame and also have a 5yr warranty.

 

[Ezkaton]

Ezkaton - from what i remember of the Session it had three personalities - it was like a tricycle on the ride between the lifts and the trails, it was stable and planted the big open jumpy trails (Crank it up) and it felt like way too much bike on the tight twisty stuff (Karate Monkey). was kinda wondering - what drove/inspired you to build up the Morewood rather than buy off the shelf?

Your description of the Session just sounds like your regular DH bike, haha.

Terrible on flats when pedalling at low speed... (awesome at high speed coming out of a down though).
Stable and planted when doing what it's made for.
Too slack and long for the tight and twisty without throwing the bike around a bit.

With my Morewood, I went for it because I was offered the frame for a good price, and I found them appealing to look at.
Kinda old school look, but not outdated looking (bit why I enjoy the Banshee as well, lots of straight lines, none of those swoopy tubes and shit most modern bikes have).
Plus it's Rennie's old frame, which was custom made to accommodate his height (6'3 - same as myself). Has an extra inch on the reach over Morewood's large production frames.
I liked the simplicity of the single pivot. My head hurts looking at some shit, like the Scott Gambler for example... argh.
All the reviews were positive, and most of all, I just wanted a long term project and to learn how to build a modern bike... as I hadn't built a bike since BMX in my teens.

Knowledge gained also gave me motivation to ditch the Giant and move onto project #2.

 

[dunndog]

wow. thank you so much guys. so much to work through.

Ezkaton - from what i remember of the Session it had three personalities - it was like a tricycle on the ride between the lifts and the trails, it was stable and planted the big open jumpy trails (Crank it up) and it felt like way too much bike on the tight twisty stuff (Karate Monkey). was kinda wondering - what drove/inspired you to build up the Morewood rather than buy off the shelf?

Klips - not interested in winning races - just want to have fun getting to the bottom.

MWI - i have been looking at a bunch of frames. i was getting confused about the sizing. i assume that the reach is the important measurement on a downhill bike as there's not much sitting down. I assume a DH bike should have a longer reach than my enduro as it will have a smaller stem.

what i have found so far is:

View attachment 317567
The XL V10 doesn't actually seem to be that big - or am i missing something?

That and the demo and glory seem to be really close to each other - which confused me with Dozers comment that the glory seemed small.

A lot of newer bikes seems to come with the SRAM guide brakes. should i be budgeting too change these straight away or give the a bat and see if they can slow down fatty?

Guides on a dh rig? Dunno.. I recently bought a new trail bike (Norco sight), it has guides and although they do the job fine I still think XT's are better and I wouldn't use those on a dh bike. But I don't weigh 70 kegs either.. I run XT levers to ye olde Saint calipers and they work fine.
In regards to the session, was it 650b? I have had 2 26" Sessions and honestly couldn't fault them. At a ducks fart under 6ft I had Larges and they were the most instantly comfortable bikes ever. Interestingly I found the session to be awesome in tight stuff, as well as rough and steep, seemed to pedal well too. But as others have said you need to get a dh bike pointing down before you will really get a sense of how well it does what it is designed to do. Most dh bikes will 'come to life' when you hit speed and terrain, it's only then with your balls in your throat will you realise it is capable of so much more than you think. I currently own an Undead and it is amazing, but it took a fair bit longer to get it set up right than the Session did. I still think the Session was faster though, but I was younger then too haha!
Bottom line though, as already said, there really aren't many/any bad options these days, they all ride awesome, it will come down to fit, comfort and what you like the look of. Also study up on different suspension designs and what they are intended to do - are they poppy and reactive, or stable and planted, etc. Keep in mind re sizing, wider bars will also give you more room, as opposed to narrower bars/longer stem. You don't want a long stem on a dh bike. 60mm max but preferably less. I had a medium 09 Glory and it felt too small, but on the trail it felt fine, so again until you point it down hill you struggle to get an indication. I personally err on the larger side if anything, I want stability and a it of forgiveness rather than throwing a bike around. It helps with my choice of being old and unfit.

 

[Ben Rainford]

I've also been riding enduro and xc for a while now and am interested in getting a downhill bike to allow me to push myself further. Im not sure if i want to go a race bike like a devinci wilson or a specialized demo or if I would like a more park/fun focused bike like a banshee darkside? I would be getting one second hand aswell. If anyones got any suggestions please let me know! cheers

 

[pink poodle]

wow. thank you so much guys. so much to work through.

Ezkaton - from what i remember of the Session it had three personalities - it was like a tricycle on the ride between the lifts and the trails, it was stable and planted the big open jumpy trails (Crank it up) and it felt like way too much bike on the tight twisty stuff (Karate Monkey). was kinda wondering - what drove/inspired you to build up the Morewood rather than buy off the shelf?

Klips - not interested in winning races - just want to have fun getting to the bottom.

MWI - i have been looking at a bunch of frames. i was getting confused about the sizing. i assume that the reach is the important measurement on a downhill bike as there's not much sitting down. I assume a DH bike should have a longer reach than my enduro as it will have a smaller stem.

what i have found so far is:

View attachment 317567
The XL V10 doesn't actually seem to be that big - or am i missing something?

That and the demo and glory seem to be really close to each other - which confused me with Dozers comment that the glory seemed small.

A lot of newer bikes seems to come with the SRAM guide brakes. should i be budgeting too change these straight away or give the a bat and see if they can slow down fatty?

Santa Cruz have a reputation for making smallish frames. From the list you have provided...I'd be going for the xxl V-10. Not just because the reach is so big. The rear end is smooth and allows for pure plough machine riding, while being able to be tuned into a very responsive and playful feel.

 

[slowmick]

Lusty don't seem to list the XXL in their website so they must think Ozzies are short arses. I couldn't justify spending $5000 for a frame when i can get a well specked bike for that. it could be an awesome frame but with no real understanding or feel for suspension set up i'd never get the best from it.

Went and looked at some bikes on the weekend. the local specialized shop has an xl demo and went to a shop that had the Glory's and Aurums. Am leaning towards a Glory - just can't beat the spec for the dollars. need to man up and ask for a spin on one though. just don't want to waste anyone's time.

 

[slowmick]

Looks like the Kona Operator 27.5 could be a goer this year. Similar price to last years Glory 1 (RRP $3799)

Frame Material: Kona DH 6061 Aluminum
Fork: RockShox Boxxer RC 200mm
Shock: RockShox KAGE RC
Crankset: Shimano Zee
Drivetrain: SRAM PG-1030 11-28 10-speed
Brakes: SRAM Guide R
Wheels: Mavic EX729

With cash left to upgrade the brakes...

 

[ajay]

Looks like the Kona Operator 27.5 could be a goer this year. Similar price to last years Glory 1 (RRP $3799)

Frame Material: Kona DH 6061 Aluminum
Fork: RockShox Boxxer RC 200mm
Shock: RockShox KAGE RC
Crankset: Shimano Zee
Drivetrain: SRAM PG-1030 11-28 10-speed
Brakes: SRAM Guide R
Wheels: Mavic EX729

With cash left to upgrade the brakes...

Can't argue with that!!

 

[pink poodle]

Lusty don't seem to list the XXL in their website so they must think Ozzies are short arses. I couldn't justify spending $5000 for a frame when i can get a well specked bike for that. it could be an awesome frame but with no real understanding or feel for suspension set up i'd never get the best from it.

Went and looked at some bikes on the weekend. the local specialized shop has an xl demo and went to a shop that had the Glory's and Aurums. Am leaning towards a Glory - just can't beat the spec for the dollars. need to man up and ask for a spin on one though. just don't want to waste anyone's time.

The kona rear shock is a bit of a worry...otherwise it looks like a nice ride.

How do you want the bike to feel? The glory value is always hard to beat, it is how I ended up with one...4 times. The suspension is smooth, especially on stuttery bumps. But they pedal like a slug and lack the playful feel I like in a big bike. The Iona won't have that same level of suppleness (by design) but is a much more playful bike and the lower stand over is a bonus as well. I've not ridden an operator though, so am just going by the paper.

 

[slowmick]

Seems the Kona Operator 27.5 is $3900 USD RRP (need to be careful on which websites i read) - that makes for a scary AUD RRP. :Cry: