Old school vs new school geometry / riding

droenn

Fat Man's XC President
Came across this dude's channel and found this video pretty interesting in terms of how he approaches a longer reach geo and getting right over the front for.. everything (decents, climbs, cornering)

I definitely do the "old school" out of habit (getting back over the rear wheel when riding down steep stuff) and I know I should stay more neutral/forward for drops etc, but this video demonstrates the difference your stance makes on longer/slacker bikes.


According to his definitions (comment on video) my bikes are not modern geo (my bikes are 2013 / 2016 frames under 440 mm reach) - but the video argues that "modern riding" should be done on "older" bikes too.

So, do you agree that there is an older way of riding and its not necessarily the best for both "modern" and "older" geometry bikes?
 

mike14

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Nice video.
I know that I have to mentally yell at myself to 'get forward' when I'm riding, especially into corners, because my instinct/muscle memory is still 'weight back'. You really can feel the difference IMO, and I found that in particular with my Capra it has become a much better riding experience when ridden the 'modern' way.
 

Tim_the_Clyde

Likes Dirt
Was an interesting video. It reinforced a few things for me.

I have noticed far better control being further forward on both my dually and hardtail. Prime/chameleon. Neither are crazy progressive but definitely more modern than other bikes I’ve ridden.

It’s taking some time for it to feel natural but I can feel gains in turns when I get it right.

I’ve also found that this stance forces my elbows into a better position to soak up chatter.

I’m starting to find that it’s about getting centered and low in most situations in dicey terrain. So much more control than off the back.

Without dropper posts there wasn’t much choice in the past on rocky terrain. So much of unlocking this modern geometry comes from having the post out of the road.


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Tim_the_Clyde

Likes Dirt
Nice video.
I know that I have to mentally yell at myself to 'get forward' when I'm riding, especially into corners, because my instinct/muscle memory is still 'weight back'. You really can feel the difference IMO, and I found that in particular with my Capra it has become a much better riding experience when ridden the 'modern' way.
Definitely yelling at myself too! The other one is let go of the brakes!


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SummitFever

Eats Squid
If you closely look at the side by side, his old school way actually has his arse (and whole body) up higher than the new school way. This means a higher center of gravity. If its properly steep there is no substitute for getting your weight as far back as possible, but that doesn't mean lock your elbows and push your upper torso higher. It needs to stay low and over the bars.

This bloke isn't even dropping his heels, which is an easy 5cm lower center of gravity.

 

ashes_mtb

Has preferences
Came across this dude's channel and found this video pretty interesting in terms of how he approaches a longer reach geo and getting right over the front for.. everything (decents, climbs, cornering)

I definitely do the "old school" out of habit (getting back over the rear wheel when riding down steep stuff) and I know I should stay more neutral/forward for drops etc, but this video demonstrates the difference your stance makes on longer/slacker bikes.


According to his definitions (comment on video) my bikes are not modern geo (my bikes are 2013 / 2016 frames under 440 mm reach) - but the video argues that "modern riding" should be done on "older" bikes too.

So, do you agree that there is an older way of riding and its not necessarily the best for both "modern" and "older" geometry bikes?
I don't have much experience with modern geo, but going back to my experience racing DH in the 90's, I don't think I ever got my weight back or cornered like that.

Weight goes back slightly but I'm still hovering over the seat. Definitely leaned the bike and turned through the feet more than with the handlebars too - MBAction had tutorials promoting that form of cornering way back. I tend to get forward when cornering too, I think that habit came from seeing pics of Brian Lopes racing dual slalom.
 

link1896

Mr Greenfield
Having a bunch of different bikes is the best way to not get stuck with one style. You invariably scare yourself silly on the first real corner on every ride to remind yourself to adapt to the chosen bike on the day. Your elbow skin demands it.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
I haven't had a chance to watch the vid yet - but I will say that riding a modern geo bike definitely helped my riding. Even though I've gone back to a semi-traditional geometry on my current bike, riding the new-school geo before it was definitely an education on how important it is to get forward and weight the front tyre. Once you adjust to those techniques, it helps a lot with confidence even if you go back to the more traditional geo as you can generate more grip, hold a line better and have the confidence to get off the brakes more.
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
Defintely felt more stable entering steep berms when I rode my mates newer geo RM Altitude, which was also a size too small, I think the bigger one would have been a proper sled. Didn't ride any gnar but agree with @SummitFever there comes a point where you have to get over the back wheel momenetarily when the section is like the one in the video but ten times longer.

I'm definitely up for new geo when I get to buying a new bike. I think I learned to properly how to keep it low and use the "body suspension" racing BMX, as an adult.
 

nathanm

Eats Squid
How old skool are we talking? That old style of riding is probably born from the days of hardtails/short travel duallies, where if your ass wasn't buzzing on the tyre you were going OTB.
Bikes of the last 15 odd years and very much moreso today, their technology means body position now relates more to speed as opposed to crashing badly. I think riding style will often be influenced by the type of bike a rider begins on. Can you imagine if we all went back to 100mm hardtails and clipless pedals, the ER's would be packed.
 

mooboyj

Likes Dirt
After I installed the 2 degree Angleset on my 2014 Tallboy LT, I noticed I started putting more weight on my front wheel and it REALLY helped with cornering. I'm still a bit "ass over the set", but I live in Tassie and everything is bloody steep and I'm a hack :p
 

CHEWY

Eats Squid
Does this whole new geo / long reach thing fuck anyone elses lower back?

I get about 30 seconds into a DH run and my back is sore as hell, I've had to go back to a smaller size and more upright riding position.

Not to mention it feels totally unco to jump super long bikes. Or is it just me?
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
Does this whole new geo / long reach thing fuck anyone elses lower back?

I get about 30 seconds into a DH run and my back is sore as hell, I've had to go back to a smaller size and more upright riding position.

Not to mention it feels totally unco to jump super long bikes. Or is it just me?
I have very long limbs, but I reckon it's pretty important to get everything right size wise whatever the bike. Dave with the RM is on the bottom end of large sizing with average limbs, switching the bars out to 720mm has made him much more comfortable. I rode his bike with the 750mm and it felt a shade small but I could really feel the reach and seat angle difference with the relative position on the bike. My 2015 XL bike feels great with his 750mm bars and I could go wider, when you see a pic of me side on it still looks kinda small under me so I could definitely use the extra ett/reach of the 2020.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
Does this whole new geo / long reach thing fuck anyone elses lower back?

I get about 30 seconds into a DH run and my back is sore as hell, I've had to go back to a smaller size and more upright riding position.

Not to mention it feels totally unco to jump super long bikes. Or is it just me?
I find it a lot easier for climbing, but struggle with upper body strength to hold my weight forward all the time on the downhills. But my upper body strength is pretty mediocre anyway, so that's a fault of me not the bike. I would say that the modern enduro bikes allow a lot more capability and relative "safety", but ask more physically of the rider to get it on descents. The older short reach design naturally weight the front a lot more, but are a lot less stable/well balanced as a result (IMO)
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
After I installed the 2 degree Angleset on my 2014 Tallboy LT, I noticed I started putting more weight on my front wheel and it REALLY helped with cornering. I'm still a bit "ass over the set", but I live in Tassie and everything is bloody steep and I'm a hack :p
My Bronson is already a bit under 67 deg with the 10mm longer fork so I'm not going to bother. Dave's RM has the head angle at the steepest 66.1 as he felt it was too slack climbing at 65, and it felt pretty nice.
 

droenn

Fat Man's XC President
@nathanm @Scotty T yeah I think first bike will have a major influence. I started out on a basic Schwinn HT $500 job with probably a ~72 HTA and 100mm fork and rode that for almost 3 years before getting a new bike. Probably why I get so far back, couldn't trust having weight over the front of that thing. :)
 

Scotty T

Walks the walk
@nathanm @Scotty T yeah I think first bike will have a major influence. I started out on a basic Schwinn HT $500 job with probably a ~72 HTA and 100mm fork and rode that for almost 3 years before getting a new bike. Probably why I get so far back, couldn't trust having weight over the front of that thing. :)
Dave is exactly the same, his was a better spec but still steep XC bike. He's still learning to get his outside foot down, another thing I got from BMX coaching sessions, and I feel the most important thing about cornering regardless of geo. It forces you low and into the middle of the bike.
 

SummitFever

Eats Squid
I think @beeb is right on the money when he says new school geo helps to teach the right position. All the things the guy says in the video is stuff you should be doing on ANY bike whether old school or new school geo.

The new school geo does come with a bit of a trap. Yes it does put you in a pretty good riding position but it can also "confine" you to that pretty good riding position. If you focus on moving around the bike as much as you can then this will be better. You know you've fallen into this trap if you find it hard to chop and change between bikes with different geo like @link1896 says.
 

CHEWY

Eats Squid
I have very long limbs, but I reckon it's pretty important to get everything right size wise whatever the bike. Dave with the RM is on the bottom end of large sizing with average limbs, switching the bars out to 720mm has made him much more comfortable. I rode his bike with the 750mm and it felt a shade small but I could really feel the reach and seat angle difference with the relative position on the bike. My 2015 XL bike feels great with his 750mm bars and I could go wider, when you see a pic of me side on it still looks kinda small under me so I could definitely use the extra ett/reach of the 2020.
I'm 5'10 and have long legs and a short torso, so I either go a large with too much reach or a medium with the entire seatpost out and a low front end.
 
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