Plastic bags, climate change, renewable energy,

[Plankosaurus]

And the same document also discusses the incredible stupidity of relying on carbon pricing alone to fix the issue.

Winning slowly is the same as losing.

I'm not going to jump in and pretend i know things about stuff, i'm more or less the unwashed masses admiring the neat spirograph pics everyone is making. I am however not a climate denier, and i dont like the idea that my kids might have to deal with living out a kevin costner movie.

You say that relying on carbon pricing alone is stupidity, i'd agree with this given the nasty doom and gloom figures being splashed around. But whats the harm in it? Its a step in the right direction isnt it? its a validation of the facts being presented, an acknowledgement that shit is getting real. Doing nothing at all because its not enough isn't a solution either, if nothing else it validates the deniers and sets the cause back further.

i dont like the whole "winning slowly is the same as losing" way of thinking. Its not the same, and if it changes some minds and buys a little bit of time for technologies and ideas to work towards a solution or a less worser outcome then surely its still worthwhile?
(has all this already been argued 473 pages back?)

 

[pink poodle]

A real life canyonaero!

 

[Haakon]

Well put @Plankosaurus

It’s like Green Power - in itself it’s pointless (you’re paying the retailer for something they’re required under legislation to provide anyway) but the value was in the PR. It got it into people’s heads and even if they didn’t like it at least they thought about it.

Carbon pricing is waaay better than that though - it actually generates revenue to be piled back into renewables, ultimately reducing the price paid through less pollution.

It was a jobs creator, innovation encouraging, and demonstrably effective at reducing emissions even in its infancy when the price was low. It’s abolition is a national disgrace

 

[hifiandmtb]

Hey Plank, I like your thinking but it’s not sensible any more. If we were thinking like that 20 years ago, it’s be sensible.

We have no time left to keep warming less than 1.5c if we use current methods (carbon pricing). No economic or scientific model shows carbon pricing alone will keep temp increases under 1.5c.

So if we chose only to do business as usual, with nudging towards CO2 reduced energy creation, we are choosing a 2+c degree world. Which is disastrous.

The models show we need to keep temps way below 2c if we are to continue with a habitable planet.

It’s simple physics. The graphs show we’ve run out of time to initiate gentle fixes. If we were by some miracle to get to zero emissions in 12 years (at current emissions levels) that only gives us a 50% chance of keeping temps below 1.5c. Shit odds eh?

I wish we’d understand that better.

 

[Haakon]

Plenty of us have understood that for a decade or two... It’s been somewhat frustrating.

 

[hifiandmtb]

If you understand the urgency, why aren't you advocating for change commensurate to the problem?

You must know that carbon pricing won't get us there in time.

Is this graph too confusing?

Seems clear to me!

 

[Haakon]

I'm advocating for change. I've been playing this game long enough to know that if you advocate such actions (despite it being needed now) straight up, you get ignored and sidelined as an "extremist".

You have to ease the masses into it, then turn up the screws without them noticing too much. Its why I'm about done though, its too late and the forces of evil are the rich ones and money = power. We were making progress and its been one step forward and 4 back in the last 7 years. Its disgusting and put together with the same shit happening globally (and worse....) I just don't see a way out. Elon Musk is worried that when AI wakes up it will view humanity as a parasite to be discarded and he is I think right to be worried.

Its why I'm done with the Greens, theyre essentially inhabiting the position you have - no compromise. As a result, we are years and years behind where we should have been. The CPRS would have been old news and no one would give a shit about the ETS we would have had quietly tickling along for years now. Even Abbot would have kept it because no would have been looking at it as anything other than a normal part of the scenery and a jobs creator.

So please stop shoving the graph under my nose, I'm aware of it. I've been aware of graphs like that for 20 years, its not news to me.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Twenty years ago I had no idea about CC. I've only learnt the detail in the last few years.

Hence my supposed "no compromise" approach to this. No compromise is the only solution we have now.

So can I assume that you too hold the same position I do - from where we are now in 2019, the only solutions are heavy-handed & unpopular?

 

[Haakon]

Absolutely. Which is why I know we are screwed - the only heavy handed action going on in the world is focused on reinvigorated fossil fuel use, rampant breeding, and dumbing down of the doomed masses so they may better serve the wealth few.

We did try...

 

[Haakon]

But, maybe we can save a bit of the post apocalyptic world if we do something at least... Damage control.

We could do a lot of good in the world by deleting murdoch and co... Along with the Trump family and many others, hell is far too good for these sort of people. They have to know what they’re doing, and seem to be ok with it. Although it could be argue they’re a symptom...

 

[hifiandmtb]

I'm not advocating abandoning carbon pricing. I'm just stating that doing that alone will be insufficient.

[edit] Found a good video where this issue is debated:

https://grist.org/article/climate-movement-grandpa-james-hansen-says-the-green-new-deal-is-nonsense/

 

[Haakon]

Anything done alone is insufficient... A carbon price is a catalyst for most of the effective actions though.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

No compromise is the only solution we have now.

Which is why all our solutions to both GHG emission minimisation AND climate change adaptation going forward will be compromises. Messy, expensive, destructive, inspiring, deadly, surprising, ineffective... effective?

 

[Haakon]

BHP boss announces $US400m plan to combat 'indisputable' climate crisis

The mining giant’s chief executive Andrew Mackenzie endorses drastic action to tackle global warming

www.theguardian.com

 

[hifiandmtb]

From that article:

BHP has a short-term goal to cap 2022 emissions at 2017 levels, and a long-term goal of achieving net-zero emissions by mid-century.

See, too little, too late. Plus, bet it doesn't happen. Commerce playing the game.

Gee I'm cynical. Gee I'm right.

 

[Haakon]

From that article:



See, too little, too late. Plus, bet it doesn't happen. Commerce playing the game.

Gee I'm cynical. Gee I'm right.

If they’re smart it will. There’s money to be made by meeting the demands of low emissions market. They’re international, they ignore the local idiots on these things.

They got out of coal not all that long ago because they decided it wasn’t a long term winner.

But of course there are plenty of other reasons I’m sure that are purely business

 

[pink poodle]

But it is a fake news. You guys know it deep down inside.

 

[Haakon]

But it is a fake news. You guys know it deep down inside.

Totes fake.

This is worth watching. Part 2 and 3 look at Twitter and Facebook as well.

 

[pink poodle]

It was all made up by Al Gore because he was pissed about not becoming president. So much jealousy...such a shame.

 

[Haakon]

It was all made up by Al Gore because he was pissed about not becoming president. So much jealousy...such a shame.

SAD!