Pre-entry only for downhill racing; good or bad?

[johnny]

I've been watching the discussion and implementation of pre-entry for racing over the last 12 months. The current discussion about pre-entry only for racing in the 07 Round #4 Awaba thread is really beginning to deal with the nuts and bolts of it all now that we have had the experience of pre-entry forms on the net and that races are being held with pre-entry only formats.

I thought it might be worthwhile to open a thread for all to se and to comment on the pros and cons of pre-entry only racing. Organisers can explain their position, punters can give feedback on why it is or it isn't a good idea and hopefully the feedback will allow both groups to reach consensus on a workable model.


So, do you think pre-entry only for racing is a good or bad idea? Please tell us why.

 

[sammydog]

Well, why not start with my perspective as a race organiser.

The reality of a DH race is that there is a lot of logistics and infrastructure required to make sure that an event happens the way the riders would expect it to.

Now, for our club (and I suspect most others), we aren't in it to make money off the races, but in no way am going to put a race on knowing that we are going to loose money.

Given that buses, trailers, toilets, first aid etc require a huge outlay, the question is how many riders do you cater for?

The difference between 150, 200, 250+ is huge when you are trying to factor in transport and other infrastructure.

What are the biggest factors that people complain about after a typical race.

Transport - Much easier to cater for if you know numbers coming. If you are forced to speculate on who is coming because people enter on the day then I would personally be inclined to under cater to minimise damage to the club. Which we all know means long lines, less runs and bitching after an event.

Prize Money - If the big money costs can be catered for because we know who is coming we won't be throwing money away on stuff we may not need. That goes back to the prize pool.

Entry Lines - While I acknowledge that even with pre entry you will need to que to have license's checked and plates handed out, the que is still less (time wise) and it is a lot less of a drain on club volunteers during the rego process.

Races Running Late - Pre entry allows start lists to be known prior to the race.

I acknowledge that some people don't like the system because they don't have a credit card, and maybe that could be worked on (mind you others have noted they don't have a card but have managed to still enter), but if you can arrange accommodation, time off work etc in advance then pre-entry is only a small extension.

Long term I think that people will accept pre entry and it will allow races to be run better, in the short term however, races will take a hit numbers wise. Looking at the race numbers from last season though we were hitting near capacity for a lot of venues. The solution to that would be pre entry to guarantee a first in first served type system to keep riders under a pre set cap.

I have heard people suggest that you should just have to put your name down to enter and pay on the day. The issue to me with this is that there is no onus on a rider entering this way to actually turn up. As it costs nothing I think we will find people entering in case they want to race (just to ensure they have a space). This is counter productive to the reason I would like pre entry, that is to know the numbers attending and be able to cater for that number of riders.

To sum up..........pre-entry=GOOD


-------edit---------

Just to be clear, I am talking abouot state/national level races. Not club rounds.

 

[DH OZ]

normally what is the pre-entry to pay on day entry's and are we still racing State/National rounds on day licenses

and what happens if you pre-enter and can't make it say due to injury do you lose your entry

Looking at the race numbers from last season though we were hitting near capacity for a lot of venues. The solution to that would be pre entry to guarantee a first in first served type system to keep riders under a pre set cap.

this is a scary thought as our sport starts to outgrow our venues!! who gets priority someone who enters first or someone who has
raced at say 3 rounds now thats worth throwing around!

 

[johnny]

this is a scary thought as our sport starts to outgrow our venues!! who gets priority someone who enters first or someone who has
raced at say 3 rounds now thats worth throwing around!

That's easy, first in best dressed.

1. How can you hold spots for the people with 3 rounds under their belt and ensure that they intend on registering? You'll end up with 50 vacant spots that could have gone to others because you were holding off for people when you didn't even know if they were coming or not.

2. Who's going to take the time to sit down and go through all the race lists to see who's been attending and who hasn't, who can register and who has to wait to see who else is coming first...., I'm sure you can see what kind of an admin nightmare this would be.

3. Stuff it, why are some more important than others? This is an inclusive sport and no one is more important than others. If some one is trying to get their season points up and are serious about racing, they can get their shit together and register as early as possible. Why should we tolerate slackards just because they have attended more races than some?

It's a tough world out there baby, every man for himself. No special treatment here....., I hope.

 

[peanut]

I've been reading in dirt mag that in the U.K all of the "dragon" series of downhill events are pre-entry only. They also have a cap dependent on the venue,which always seems to fill with a waiting list for those that didn't get their act together.
Apparently they are the most sort after series of races to go in, as the prizes and level of organization are top notch.

My personal opinion with downhill is that a maxiumum number of entries should be allocated first to make the event run smoothly with the available manpower the club has for the given date.
If the manpower isn't there then the rider cap should be brought down to suit what is available.
Pre-entry should then be alloted for say 90% of the spots available In order to gaurentee the club doesn't do it's dosh. The other 10% can be for on the day entry.
I think that would be a fair ratio to apply to allow for those who can't meet the online requirements.

It's going to take a while for people to realize that events which need infastructure to cater for patrons, have requirements of those who wish to participate.

I can't honestly think of any organized activities outside of mountain biking which requires infastructure to cater for participants, where pre entry isn't the norm.

 

[sammydog]

I would have a bit of a concern about this bit.

Pre-entry should then be alloted for say 90% of the spots available In order to gaurentee the club doesn't do it's dosh. The other 10% can be for on the day entry.
I think that would be a fair ratio to apply to allow for those who can't meet the online requirements.

In theory its great. But unfortunately some poor volunteer gets the job of telling people they can't race once the 10% allocation is gone. I don't think we need to be putting volunteers in confrontational (and it would get that way when people who have traveled and booked accommodation are turned away) situations. Thats a sure fire way to kill of the volunteer base.

The cap for individual venues is a great idea (well I think so) and I think last season we came close to needing one.

 

[daddyrat]

i'm all for pre-entry.
if i want to go i always pre-enter anyway.i reckon it would solve a lot of the head ache to the organizers particularly if cut off is a week prior to the race.
go for it and do it

 

[Rik]

Pre entry is great but you still need on the day entry for those that don't know if they can make it or not until the night before... nothing wrong with slugging them an extra $10 or $20 in my eyes, that'll entice people to pre-enter and also be a concession for the hassle of taking on the day entries.
Pre-entry only is a bit of a bitch, what if you have tentative commitments and want to keep your options open? Do you enter, pull out and waste money and leave a spot vacant... or do you just not enter at all.

 

[thecat]

Pre entry is great but you still need on the day entry for those that don't know if they can make it or not until the night before...
Pre-entry only is a bit of a bitch,

The problem with that is we are almost hitting capacity with pre entries.

Lithgow had 180 pre enters, coffs was up around 220. In 06 at 250riders Lithgow finished in the dark.

You can get away with it at Nats over summer but NSW State series is a winter thing and day light is short.

Squid might be able to confirm this but this year, even with online entries and no entries taken on the Sunday average numbers for the series have been up again on last year, sitting around 240-?

Sooner or later the venues are going to "sell out" with pre entries whether we officially make it compulsory or not.
as Lenny points out who get the job of telling the angry mob that they can't ride because old mate in the line in front of them is the 300th rider?

As for paying up front and then not being able to race because of injuries. There is a refund policies and you'll get 90% of you money back. The other 10% goes into transaction fees and admin.


As for not having a credit card, i said in the other thread if you simply can't pay by credit card ring the organiser and ask for other arrangements to be made. Mind you if people ring the day after entries close with a sob story I'm less likely to by accomadating than if they had rang 3 weeks in advance.

In my opinion Pre entries give the following advantages

1:Organisers have a better idea of numbers they need to cater for (Mind you most people are still entering at the last possible minute) and so can better organise the weekend with shuttles and facilities to suit.

2:Organisers can better budget the prize pools and have money up front to pay for the infrastructure needed to run the race.

3: There is less cash handled on the day, this has to be an advantage to both organisers and riders

The disadvantages being pointed out are.

1:Some people find it difficult to pay by credit card.

2: If you pay up front but then can't race you loose 10% of you entries fee.
(BTW what happens to the deposit you left on your accommodation and how did you book that with out a card?)


sooner or later races are going to need to be capped somehow. Whether this is first come first served with online entries only or we have some form of qualifying system through club and regional races we don't know

 

[drewandmel]

The problem with that is we are almost hitting capacity with pre entries.

Lithgow had 180 pre enters, coffs was up around 220. In 06 at 250riders Lithgow finished in the dark.

You can get away with it at Nats over summer but NSW State series is a winter thing and day light is short.

Squid might be able to confirm this but this year, even with online entries and no entries taken on the Sunday average numbers for the series have been up again on last year, sitting around 240-?

Sooner or later the venues are going to "sell out" with pre entries whether we officially make it compulsory or not.
as Lenny points out who get the job of telling the angry mob that they can't ride because old mate in the line in front of them is the 300th rider?

As for paying up front and then not being able to race because of injuries. There is a refund policies and you'll get 90% of you money back. The other 10% goes into transaction fees and admin.


As for not having a credit card, i said in the other thread if you simply can't pay by credit card ring the organiser and ask for other arrangements to be made. Mind you if people ring the day after entries close with a sob story I'm less likely to by accomadating than if they had rang 3 weeks in advance.

In my opinion Pre entries give the following advantages

1:Organisers have a better idea of numbers they need to cater for (Mind you most people are still entering at the last possible minute) and so can better organise the weekend with shuttles and facilities to suit.

2:Organisers can better budget the prize pools and have money up front to pay for the infrastructure needed to run the race.

3: There is less cash handled on the day, this has to be an advantage to both organisers and riders

The disadvantages being pointed out are.

1:Some people find it difficult to pay by credit card.

2: If you pay up front but then can't race you loose 10% of you entries fee.
(BTW what happens to the deposit you left on your accommodation and how did you book that with out a card?)


sooner or later races are going to need to be capped somehow. Whether this is first come first served with online entries only or we have some form of qualifying system through club and regional races we don't know

I was going to type my own thoughts on this but i'm crap at typing and this above pretty much sums up what i was going to say.

The sooner they cap the numbers and do pre entry only........the sooner everyone will get used to it.

 

[sammydog]

Pre entry is great but you still need on the day entry for those that don't know if they can make it or not until the night before... nothing wrong with slugging them an extra $10 or $20 in my eyes, that'll entice people to pre-enter and also be a concession for the hassle of taking on the day entries.

But the issue still remains, what if a large amount just turn up on the day despite the additional fee.

If you haven't catered for them, suddenly the whole event goes to shit. Long shuttle lines just punish those who did pre-enter.

I honestly don't think $20 would be enough of a carrot to entice someone to pre-enter anyway.

For me this issue isn't about the hassle of handling entries on the day, its about the logistics of putting on a race without knowing numbers of who is coming. Once we hit a venue's capacity its also about managing the cutoff for numbers and avoiding conflict on the day.

Pre-entry only is a bit of a bitch, what if you have tentative commitments and want to keep your options open? Do you enter, pull out and waste money and leave a spot vacant... or do you just not enter at all.

What ever hassle pre entry may be for the riders, I think the gains for organisers make up for it. We have people very quick to point out what is wrong with a particular race, well pre entry is going to help us put on the events that people have been asking for.

 

[...jim]

To add to this from a media/commentator pov (and clearly one is probaby only talking state/national rounds here) pre entry is very useful for a couple of reasons.

It allows whoever is chasing media for the event to be more precise about what's happening. eg: When Sam Hill appears at a national round, not only does the media manager get to put out press releases that say "world champion" (which can be useful if you're trying to convince the local TV station to send a cameraman - hence provide vision that can potentially run in any market)- but also to lean on the WA media to run the story.

Doesn't have to be the world champ either, if a local paper has covered a local rider in the past - and their name crops up pre-entered at a national round on the other side of the country, the media director can target that outlet with a hand tooled media release...

The other useful thing about pre entry for commentary is that riders can enter their sponsors and that field should appear on the start list for commentry. I tried pretty hard last season to hit the sponsors when riders were on course (but of course I could only do that when I had the details). It's not entirely impossible for sponsor fields to be filled in when riders register on the day - but it's gonna slow down that queue a fair bit!!

Finally, one prob I see with holding some spots open on the day (above) is what happens when the event's sold out and Rennie turns up. Is it fair to let him in while Joe Punter misses out?

It's a bit of a toughie. The event's a whole lot easier to run if everyone's pre-entered...but if your event doesn't fill up with pre entries...do you throw it open to on-the-day entries? Because while you might pick up a few more dollars, you're only going to confuse riders about pre-entry next time. It really ought to be all or nothing - and if venues are reaching capacity it's a no-brainer.

 

[dr.matt]

I vote 1 for pre-entry. While i havn't raced before, i am hoping to do my first race within a few months.
I couldnt afford to drive for 3+ hours to a race only to find out there were no more spots. Not to mention how extremely pissed off i would be.

Its been mentioned should someone who has competed in a few rounds miss out because they didnt pre-enter but a first timer did? Well, yeah they should. Like johnny (i think!) said; first in-best dressed.....

 

[...jim]

Its been mentioned should someone who has competed in a few rounds miss out because they didnt pre-enter but a first timer did? Well, yeah they should. Like johnny (i think!) said; first in-best dressed.....

It shouldn't be a great stretch to administer one pre-entry to cover the whole season for those committed to racing the whole season - perhaps with a discount over entering each race individually. That'd guarentee 'em a spot.

 

[Squidly Didly]

Squid might be able to confirm this but this year, even with online entries and no entries taken on the Sunday average numbers for the series have been up again on last year, sitting around 240-?

05 State Series numbers:
Average: 161

06 State Series numbers:
Average: 231

07 State Series numbers:
Average: 237

There's not many venues left in NSW that can handle 237 riders...

 

[Binaural]

I'm all for pre-booking. I think that anything that makes running the event that much smoother with few real costs is worth a try.

1:Some people find it difficult to pay by credit card.

For these people, you could have have a reservation system. If they don't turn up, they have to pay a forfeit before they can book future races.

2: If you pay up front but then can't race you loose 10% of you entries fee.
(BTW what happens to the deposit you left on your accommodation and how did you book that with out a card?)

Don't think it will be a significant deterrent. If you've made the decision to go to the race, having to cancel at the last moment for any reason is more unpleasant than a foregone $10.

 

[skwiz05]

Over Here in WA - Perth MTB Club has been doing it all year and it works well. Extra $10 to register on the day in person.
Doing it for both Club and State rounds.
The way of the future I think. I like not having to carry cash to races by paying on-line.
Saves time at the registration tent.

Even in the event of a cancellation of a race: wasnt hard to refund, or as most did , transfer their payment to the next race......

 

[Steve-0]

Catering is the biggest factor driving me away from entering DH races.... with pre-entery, transport is spot on (small shuttle lines) and if the organisers know how many people are coming, they dont have to charge as much to cover expensense that are a "maybe".

Old school: looong shuttle lines and huge risk of a loss for the club
pre-entry: Appropriate line lentghs and cheaper entry fees.

Maybe add a Poll to this thread?

 

[norcorulz]

I personally prefer pre-entry. It enables you to just pick up your number instead of lining up in usually long lines. It eradicates the problem or rocking upto a race then realising i don't have enough/any money to pay. And if i enter online, i can't back out!

 

[mtbdh_girl]

I haven't read all of the responses however...BMX in Victoria run a Metro Plate comp whcih travels rom then on, the rest of the rounds have been pre-entry only...no entries on the day. Pre entry closes 4 days prior.Interestingly, numbers have grown since pre entry only was implemented. Entry forms are online, but they are also handed out to everyone at the race prior.

Used to help w/ entry for FTF at DH races a few years ago. Entry on the day was the MAIN reason we ran late w/ racing. The pre entry thing was often discussed, and was offered at times, but in dh it was under-subscribed. It always worked well for XC, and the concensus was that DHer's were to lazy to help themselves.

I have always held the opinion that there is nothing wrong with pre entry only - the number of times i and other committee members missed out on doing any practice runs because we were trying to deal with the extra work caused by too many entries on the day... and then had to waste time dealing with complaints about late starts...

Obviously BMX entry is cheaper, so not so much an issue to not get a refund if you don't race. However asking people to post their entry on a Monday or Tues for entry to a race that w/e is not that big an ask. Even for the club to do a refund - say minus 10% to cover the admin costs would work- 10% is less than what paying extra to enter on the day would cost...