Proflex bikes and Girvin forks (damper upgrading?)

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potchi00

Likes Bikes
Hey there,

It seems all the Proflex and Girvin fork threads are dead (probably for the reason that no one cares anymore), but there are enough old threads that I thought I would try to start a new one; Especially since Proflex and Girvin forks are such a love or hate proposition - My personal opinion was that Girvins and similar (anyone remember AMP?) are the betamax (Probably need to be born before 1975 to remember the beta vs VHS battle for VCR supremacy) of the fork world. A better idea that went by the wayside due to marketing and image issues; everyone wanted their MTBs looking like a motorbike and the linkage design was just too funky. And, of course, it didn't help that Mr Girvin was loopy for elastomers when everyone wanted springs.

Anyway, I'm just getting back onto the bike after years of laziness and have wheeled my old Proflex 856 with Girvin forks out of the shed. I picked this up this when Proflex was being bought out by K2 so they were clearing the warehouse of the old stock. Mine came set-up with V-brakes (though canti's were the original from the hole in the seat tube), a mix of LX and XT, and with the elastomers swapped out for coil over springs. I have only just realised that the shop or distributor swapped in the springs without upgrading the damper, no wonder it clanks to the top of its travel all the time!! Are there any ways of improving the performance of these shocks easily and cheaply? As far as I can tell the original Noleen upgrade damper units are no longer available and new replacements air shocks from Risse cost about US $500 (Front + Rear + Delivery, probably better putting $500 towards a new bike really). Though I could try to dodgy something together, I don't want to waste a lot of time or money on a bike that may crap-out at any time.

So do any other ol'timers have any ideas on getting these shocks up to speed? Does anyone care anymore?
 
Reubs

Reubs

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yes, we care!

I've seen on a fabulous wonderland named Google a place in the states that makes elastomers for old forks and girvin's where on the list. That would solve the clanging and crashing as the shock really has little to no dampening as they would've relied on the natural dampening of the elastomer. Plus it will be a weigh saving! They were pretty cheap and i think they shipped worldwide.

I always wanted an AMP frame, fork and disc brake. Cable actuated hydraulic brake- absolute rubbish but man thay were cool!
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
Speedy replies!!!

Wow, thanks for the speedy replies! I hope you guys are on holidays and not skiving off at work like I am.


there's a bit of proflex talk in the "vintage mtb thread" as i recall..
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There are actually a surprising amount of girvin / proflex threads, including in the "Vintage Mountain Bike Thread" and unfortunately in the "Worst Bike you have ever owned..." Thread, but just about all are dead, so I thought I'd start another.

Yes, we care!

I've seen on a fabulous wonderland named Google a place in the states that makes elastomers for old forks and girvin's where on the list. That would solve the clanging and crashing as the shock really has little to no dampening as they would've relied on the natural dampening of the elastomer. Plus it will be a weigh saving! They were pretty cheap and i think they shipped worldwide.

I always wanted an AMP frame, fork and disc brake. Cable actuated hydraulic brake- absolute rubbish but man thay were cool!
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Am I being as bad as the proflex bashers for not wanting to go to elastomer suspension? With my head I understand that elastomers are probably better for short travel suspension and probably lost out to springs for the same reason girvin lost out to normal forks and beta lost out to VHS. But jeesh do they look naff or what?
There's also the issue with the Proflex designed elastomers having a habit of melting when it heats up a bit. I'm from Adelaide and the bike gets kept in a hot shed. With the amount we are going over 40ºC these days it may not be long before my suspension is a puddle on the floor and a sticky mess on the bike (though I suppose suspension fork parts may have changed the formulation?). If it wasn't for the mess on the bike it might be worth it at US $45 a pop.
Funny about the spring swap, I'd always assumed the bike shop / distributor would have upgraded the dampers. When one spat some oil / grease out a year a two ago I did some research and realised that I had original elastomer tuned dampers. It turns out that Proflex says this is OK, but not ideal for the fork, however, there's no way I should have been sold a bike with this setup at the rear. I 'spose you get what you pay for when you buy cheap in a stock clearance.

As for AMP, I reckon a long travel version of that fork I saw actually scared me. Looked more like a part of some finely tuned industrial machinery than a bike part.

Cheers,
Tom
 
floody

floody

Wheel size expert
It probably tops out because the damper is rooted, not because of the springs. I have ridden them as new with speedsprings upgrade kits and similar and they worked fine.

You may be able to get a shock short enough to fit in the forks, assuming the mounting hardware isn't too bizarre; later ones had the Noleen coilover unit.

Frankly its really, really, really not worth it.

$500 or so would buy a good modern telescopic fork, brand new, warranty, modern performance.... As for the rear shock, yes you may be stuck with Risse unless someone can make an adaptor for say a modern air shock.
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
I actually had the damper checked out by the local LBS when it squirted out the grease / oil. They said it was fine and just replaced the oil (though I don't think they had ever worked on a Proflex, the damper is very simple) In all honesty I'm not too concerned about the fork, as you say the fork works OK with speed springs. Its the clanking rear that's the issue. I suppose that I'll just have to risk a gooey mess all over the bike (and the funny looks) and go the elastomer route. I could also just put some really heavy oil in the damper (might break something though) Off course, I could also leave it as its been for the last 12 or 13 years.
 
floody

floody

Wheel size expert
Man if a damper is leaking, and seals don't get replaced...it ain't fixed or right.

On elastomer durability..keep bike in house perhaps?

I think it would be possible, nay relatively simple, to fab an adaptor which would cradle the end of a modern airshock and slip into the proflex seatstay mount
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
From memory the prognosis of the LBS was that extreme conditions (a big, hard hit in hot weather) and old, thickened oil had allowed a small amount to sneak past the seals. I don't think the suspension performs much different now than it ever did, so I'm happy with their analysis.

Keeping the bike inside... ...Good idea, but I'd have to get past the Mrs first!!!

And yes, you can fabricate an adaptor. There are threads on Rotorburn, including one with a close up picture, that mention a Fox shock in a very similar Proflex. Given I don't have the skills myself, it's probably unlikely to work out cheaper than the Risse replacements that are designed for the frame (approx. US $200 front, US $220 rear + delivery)
 
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sammydog

NSWMTB, Hunter MTB Association
There are a ton of options for rear shocks.

You can buy new elastomers that are a huge improvement on the old ones (I am about to buy some for my 854 and vector 1 forks). You can get them from Rapid descent Scotland. If you don't have a gold coloured ODS damper on the bike, the spring is pretty much useless as the elastomer specific ones relied on the friction of the elastomer on the shock shaft for rebound. A sping on one of these essentially gives you a pogo stick.

The ODS units did come on the 856 though, so you may have one of these.

With my 955 and 855 I don't want to use elastomers anymore, so I had this mount made up. I am going to update the shock in the short term
.

My Carbon crosslinks came standard with a noleen NR2 in it. My Vector 1's need elastomers. Risse Racing makes shocks for these forks, and shocks specific for the rear end. I was never overly impressed with the Risse Genesis I had on the rear end though.

Stratos also used to make rear shocks as well.

There is a huge amount of info available on the Proflex Forum as well.
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
sammydog said:
There are a ton of options for rear shocks.

You can buy new elastomers that are a huge improvement on the old ones (I am about to buy some for my 854 and vector 1 forks). You can get them from Rapid descent Scotland. If you don't have a gold coloured ODS damper on the bike, the spring is pretty much useless as the elastomer specific ones relied on the friction of the elastomer on the shock shaft for rebound. A sping on one of these essentially gives you a pogo stick.

The ODS units did come on the 856 though, so you may have one of these.

With my 955 and 855 I don't want to use elastomers anymore, so I had this mount made up. I am going to update the shock in the short term
.

My Carbon crosslinks came standard with a noleen NR2 in it. My Vector 1's need elastomers. Risse Racing makes shocks for these forks, and shocks specific for the rear end. I was never overly impressed with the Risse Genesis I had on the rear end though.

Stratos also used to make rear shocks as well.

There is a huge amount of info available on the Proflex Forum as well.
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Thanks for the excellent info,

My bike does have the gold ODS dampers, but I remember reading somewhere on the web (an archived pdf from proflex) that said pretty much what I said above. Because the damper was designed to work with elastomers, that have their own damping, that swapping in springs weren't ideal but OK up front, but not recommended in the rear. They then recommended the Noleen replacements. I can't find this link now but is it possible either they were just trying to sell some more Noleen's, or that the pdf I found was talking about an older version of the damper (it definitely referred to ODS brand, but I don't remember a reference to the colour)?

The Rapid Descent site looks like a killer, but if I was to retrofit elastomers I just realised there is at least one fitting I would need (the metal that sits between elastomers) Are these available anywhere? How about the black bump stops fitted to prevent bottoming out? - mine have melted / dissolved into a gooey mess.
 
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sammydog

NSWMTB, Hunter MTB Association
The ODS units were oil dampened which is why the springs worked. Of it is ODS then there is no issues with the spring as long as the shock is still functioning corectly. The original nonODS units needed the elastomer friction for damping. All of the ODS units were gold.

If you go back to an elastomer setup you don't need the bottom out bumper. As for the spacer, you will just have to make a disc to put in. I am not aware of anthing aftermarket for this part.
 
P

potchi00

Likes Bikes
potchi00 said:
Thanks for the excellent info,

My bike does have the gold ODS dampers, but I remember reading somewhere on the web (an archived pdf from proflex) that said pretty much what I said above. Because the damper was designed to work with elastomers, that have their own damping, that swapping in springs weren't ideal but OK up front, but not recommended in the rear. They then recommended the Noleen replacements. I can't find this link now but is it possible either they were just trying to sell some more Noleen's, or that the pdf I found was talking about an older version of the damper (it definitely referred to ODS brand, but I don't remember a reference to the colour)?

The Rapid Descent site looks like a killer, but if I was to retrofit elastomers I just realised there is at least one fitting I would need (the metal that sits between elastomers) Are these available anywhere? How about the black bump stops fitted to prevent bottoming out? - mine have melted / dissolved into a gooey mess.
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I found the document I was looking for re use of springs with ODS dampers. It is a word document from idRiders found hereidriders.com/proflex/files/K298%20faq.doc.
 
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sammydog

NSWMTB, Hunter MTB Association
Have a read of the proflex forum, most people have had no issues using the ODS on the rear with a spring. This is actually the way most people run them.

It isn't as good as a dedicated shock meant for the application, but by all accounts functions quiet well.
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
sammydog said:
Have a read of the proflex forum, most people have had no issues using the ODS on the rear with a spring. This is actually the way most people run them.

It isn't as good as a dedicated shock meant for the application, but by all accounts functions quiet well.
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Yeah, the document looks like a 'frequently asked questions' section from an old Proflex / K2 website that someone copied. Of course they would have had to (1) sell the upgrades and also (2) be conservative with recommendations so the guy who goes DH on the XC frame has nothing to complain about.

Thanks for your help
 
donny70

donny70

Likes Dirt
Yup those crosslinks still come up now and again on ebay. Like the LOOK fournales that I missed out on before christmas, darn it...
Retrobike.co.uk is a good site to check what auctions are on worldwide. They've got lists of retro bikes and components that you can search
Bikepro.com is great for old parts too. Just check out the Lawwill Leaders!!
 
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potchi00

Likes Bikes
donny70 said:
Yup those crosslinks still come up now and again on ebay. Like the LOOK fournales that I missed out on before christmas, darn it...
Retrobike.co.uk is a good site to check what auctions are on worldwide. They've got lists of retro bikes and components that you can search
Bikepro.com is great for old parts too. Just check out the Lawwill Leaders!!
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If people think Girvins look weird, they've got nothing on that Lawwill leader. I wonder how well it works\
 
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