I didnt want to see this turn into an argument, but feel I need to make a comment on the previous posts. My thoughts on why downhill riders give way to uphill riders is mainly to keep their speed in check. Doesn't mean they have to ride at walking pace, but at a speed where they have control over their bikes. Whether this is right or not, it's universally accepted that this is the way things are, everybody knows that (or so I used to think). So for someone to think it's 'not the right thing to do anymore' concerns me a little. In the interests of everybody's safety, we all need to know who is going to give way if you're in a situation where you both can't move to the side pf the track and pass safely. If a few riders aren't going to abide by what is commonly accepted, the potential dangers are failry obvious I think....
Rider etiquette sticky?
- Thread starter Dreggsy
- Start date
Feel the love
Couldn't say in the context of racing as I've only ever been out there for fun, but why wouldn't someone get out of the way if there's another person barreling up your jaxie? It's the same on the freeway (although I don't get why Sydneysiders love sitting in the fast lane going 5ks under the limit). Ultimately, we're all out there for a cruise and a good time and if your fat, out of shape ass is preventing a load of people from enjoying their one day off work, do the decent thing and get out of the way for a few seconds. The pair of you will have a better session for it. Ultimately, you just can't put a price on common sense...
Couldn't say in the context of racing as I've only ever been out there for fun, but why wouldn't someone get out of the way if there's another person barreling up your jaxie? It's the same on the freeway (although I don't get why Sydneysiders love sitting in the fast lane going 5ks under the limit). Ultimately, we're all out there for a cruise and a good time and if your fat, out of shape ass is preventing a load of people from enjoying their one day off work, do the decent thing and get out of the way for a few seconds. The pair of you will have a better session for it. Ultimately, you just can't put a price on common sense...
Feedstations water
In for the Husky 100 again this year, and my gut feeling is it will be wet again.
Can I ask the guys up front not to use the water at the feedstations to wash their bikes.
Not sure what the etiqutte is, but we get thirsty at the back also, and riding the last 30km without water is just not cool.
Spare a thought?
In for the Husky 100 again this year, and my gut feeling is it will be wet again.
Can I ask the guys up front not to use the water at the feedstations to wash their bikes.
Not sure what the etiqutte is, but we get thirsty at the back also, and riding the last 30km without water is just not cool.
Spare a thought?
DaGonz
Eats Squid
First time I've ever heard such a practice. If they're stopping long enough to wash their bikes, I doubt they're up the front though...
...does it actually happen? has anyone seen it?
Cheers
Spoon
Dumb Question I know
Here is a bit of a dumb question I am sure. I seem to be a perpetual beginner, racing XC with WSMTB, I used to generally finish at the rear of D grade. Lots of fun, not much fitness or skill. As a result I am VERY well versed at getting out of the road of faster riders 95% of which are curteous and polite and call rider and say thanks as they pass.
Recently I bought a "proper" bike and have improved fitness & skill and the strangest thing has started to happen, I've overtaken a few guys. Now this usually happens when they have stacked or at obvious occassions however my question is.....in a race, if you are both in the same grade and you catch someone and would like to pass/beat them and they obviously would like not to get passed, what is the ettiqette? Do you just call rider and they are expected to get out of the way? In my grade and my level it is less of an issue as by the time I catch someone or I am caugth by someone in my grade, one or both of us are so out of breath it almost doesnt matter, but how does it work at the pointy end. Do you just have to wait for a fire trail or similar wide section?
Here is a bit of a dumb question I am sure. I seem to be a perpetual beginner, racing XC with WSMTB, I used to generally finish at the rear of D grade. Lots of fun, not much fitness or skill. As a result I am VERY well versed at getting out of the road of faster riders 95% of which are curteous and polite and call rider and say thanks as they pass.
Recently I bought a "proper" bike and have improved fitness & skill and the strangest thing has started to happen, I've overtaken a few guys. Now this usually happens when they have stacked or at obvious occassions however my question is.....in a race, if you are both in the same grade and you catch someone and would like to pass/beat them and they obviously would like not to get passed, what is the ettiqette? Do you just call rider and they are expected to get out of the way? In my grade and my level it is less of an issue as by the time I catch someone or I am caugth by someone in my grade, one or both of us are so out of breath it almost doesnt matter, but how does it work at the pointy end. Do you just have to wait for a fire trail or similar wide section?
go to bed jessica
Likes Dirt
I've always thought that if you are racing for position then it's a case of wating till you have an oppertunity to pass. For example at Yarramundi if I get caught behind someone who is slower in singletrack than myself but whom I'm racing directly against, that's my tough luck until I can work out a way to get past. Equally if I'm the slower rider and I've got someone right behind me challenging for position I'm not moving, it is a race.
I've found that some of the most satisfying races I've had are the ones where you are up against a rider with completely different strengths and you both end up swapping position several times per lap anyway, without letting each other by. If it was as easy as just calling track that would take a lot of the enjoyment and tactics out of racing, we might as well do a time trial.
That said, I'll never baulk a rider that is clearly miles faster than me, I'd rather just move aside as it's only screwing their race and it certainly wont get me anywhere, unless it's with 200 meters to the finish of course!
Anyway, that's my take on it, hope that helps.
Big Dog.
I've found that some of the most satisfying races I've had are the ones where you are up against a rider with completely different strengths and you both end up swapping position several times per lap anyway, without letting each other by. If it was as easy as just calling track that would take a lot of the enjoyment and tactics out of racing, we might as well do a time trial.
That said, I'll never baulk a rider that is clearly miles faster than me, I'd rather just move aside as it's only screwing their race and it certainly wont get me anywhere, unless it's with 200 meters to the finish of course!
Anyway, that's my take on it, hope that helps.
Big Dog.
wilddemon
Likes Dirt
^ I've never heard of that before, not that I've done a lot of racing or that I'm very competitive, but every rider brief I've been to has said exactly the opposite, that if someones up yer clacker and they call track, regardless of position the leading rider allows the faster rider through when rider in front feels it is safe to do so. Happy to be proven wrong 
swanny81
Likes Bikes
I think you actually answer this a little bit yourself - the key is that you let 'faster' riders past.^ I've never heard of that before, not that I've done a lot of racing or that I'm very competitive, but every rider brief I've been to has said exactly the opposite, that if someones up yer clacker and they call track, regardless of position the leading rider allows the faster rider through when rider in front feels it is safe to do so. Happy to be proven wrong
If someone is clearly faster then the etiquette 99% of the time is to let them past (with a few exceptions such as if it is unsafe to do so, if there is not room etc) but if you have someone behind you, that you are in the same grade as/racing for position, there is no reason you need to let them past you. Its a race?
If they didn't want to be behind you, they should have ridden harder earlier in the race to be in front of you
wilddemon
Likes Dirt
I understand what you"re saying but that's not my takeI think you actually answer this a little bit yourself - the key is that you let 'faster' riders past.
If someone is clearly faster then the etiquette 99% of the time is to let them past (with a few exceptions such as if it is unsafe to do so, if there is not room etc) but if you have someone behind you, that you are in the same grade as/racing for position, there is no reason you need to let them past you. Its a race?
If they didn't want to be behind you, they should have ridden harder earlier in the race to be in front of you
go to bed jessica
Likes Dirt
For sure, at every race these days the rider breifing always has something about overtaking, and the actions the riders involved should take. I was always under the impression that this was aimed at situations where a rider is being lapped or similar, not at two people racing each other.^ I've never heard of that before, not that I've done a lot of racing or that I'm very competitive, but every rider brief I've been to has said exactly the opposite, that if someones up yer clacker and they call track, regardless of position the leading rider allows the faster rider through when rider in front feels it is safe to do so. Happy to be proven wrong
Endurance racing is a bit different, it's harder to know who you are racing for a variety of reasons so I can understand why organisers really hammer the passing etiquette into everyone as often as possible, it's needed. But if you know that the person behind you is racing for position or vice versa, and you are of a similar lap speed, I don't see why the leader would have to pull over, kinda sucks the fun out of it for me.
I can't really prove anything because I don't have a copy of the tech regs and I suspect they don't cover this anyway.......
wilddemon
Likes Dirt
I had a look on MTBA
http://www.mtba.asn.au/join/frequest-asked-questions#accepted
The fact is that you are also racing with many other people in your class, in a different (age or skill wise) race class and thus be better than you are or you are also riding with others who are less skilled than you are.
In all these cases it is important to know how you should react if you catch someone or someone catches you on the race course.
If you are catch-up or you are caught-up the rider behind will call "track left (or right)" to indicate which side he/she wishes to pass you. You should attempt to move to the opposite side of his call (right or left side of the track) at the earliest opportunity to make room for the rider to pass you safely.
My interpretation of this is that it doesn't matter if they are same class or different class, if someone catches up to you and calls track, the person in front lets them through when safe. Just my interpretation. This is different to my understanding: this says that the person who is overtaking calls which side they will pass, and in previous briefs I believe I was instructed that it was the person in front who decides which side the person from behind will overtake as they have better view of the track.
Again, just my interpretation
This is from the MTBA Technical Regulations;
http://www.mtba.asn.au/training/com/HtmlPDF/MTBA Technical Regulations.html
5.3.9. Riders must act in a sporting manner at all times and shall permit any faster rider
to overtake without obstruction at the earliest opportunity.
and from MTBA Technical Regulations: Club-level events (google linked pdf download)
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...2-CUAw&usg=AFQjCNFiByWpKl3cxXtv0Wu6YhJ2VOOWXg
8.2.1.7.Riders must act in a sporting manner at all times and shall permit any
faster rider to overtake without obstruction at the earliest opportunity.
http://www.mtba.asn.au/join/frequest-asked-questions#accepted
The fact is that you are also racing with many other people in your class, in a different (age or skill wise) race class and thus be better than you are or you are also riding with others who are less skilled than you are.
In all these cases it is important to know how you should react if you catch someone or someone catches you on the race course.
If you are catch-up or you are caught-up the rider behind will call "track left (or right)" to indicate which side he/she wishes to pass you. You should attempt to move to the opposite side of his call (right or left side of the track) at the earliest opportunity to make room for the rider to pass you safely.
My interpretation of this is that it doesn't matter if they are same class or different class, if someone catches up to you and calls track, the person in front lets them through when safe. Just my interpretation. This is different to my understanding: this says that the person who is overtaking calls which side they will pass, and in previous briefs I believe I was instructed that it was the person in front who decides which side the person from behind will overtake as they have better view of the track.
Again, just my interpretation
This is from the MTBA Technical Regulations;
http://www.mtba.asn.au/training/com/HtmlPDF/MTBA Technical Regulations.html
5.3.9. Riders must act in a sporting manner at all times and shall permit any faster rider
to overtake without obstruction at the earliest opportunity.
and from MTBA Technical Regulations: Club-level events (google linked pdf download)
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...2-CUAw&usg=AFQjCNFiByWpKl3cxXtv0Wu6YhJ2VOOWXg
8.2.1.7.Riders must act in a sporting manner at all times and shall permit any
faster rider to overtake without obstruction at the earliest opportunity.
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crank1979
Likes Bikes and Dirt
You've really got 2 options.
Don't let them pass if you're in front.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pnet5tYrvg
Or force your way past if you're behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhvZoq2KSvs
Don't let them pass if you're in front.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pnet5tYrvg
Or force your way past if you're behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhvZoq2KSvs
wilddemon
Likes Dirt
Both are sporting options :You've really got 2 options.
Don't let them pass if you're in front.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pnet5tYrvg
Or force your way past if you're behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhvZoq2KSvs
pretty sweet trail on the first vid!
Good sport applies to both faster and slower riders.
In vid 1, front guy should have let them past. Not even a race. Pure and plain trail etiquette.
As for a race situation, if the slower rider was being lapped by the faster rider, so not competing for position, then he/she should let them go past. If however, they were competing for position, faster rider shouldn't expect slower rider to 'move' out of the way, but rather wait for a safe (for both riders) opportunity to pass and then announce that they're passing. Slower rider should then hold their line and allow the overtake to occur.
I know that's not what your MTBA quote says, but it makes sense. In racing, one of the most important times is the time before the first bit of singletrack to prevent hold ups. Its part of racing tactics. MTBA isn't going to say that slower riders should hold their line and not move, as 90% of Australian MTB riding isn't racing, in which case the rule they suggested applies.
If you like you can let every rider go past in every situation, your not going to get on any ones bad side doing that... But I doubt in a race situation, many others will.
Good sport applies to both faster and slower riders.
In vid 1, front guy should have let them past. Not even a race. Pure and plain trail etiquette.
As for a race situation, if the slower rider was being lapped by the faster rider, so not competing for position, then he/she should let them go past. If however, they were competing for position, faster rider shouldn't expect slower rider to 'move' out of the way, but rather wait for a safe (for both riders) opportunity to pass and then announce that they're passing. Slower rider should then hold their line and allow the overtake to occur.
I know that's not what your MTBA quote says, but it makes sense. In racing, one of the most important times is the time before the first bit of singletrack to prevent hold ups. Its part of racing tactics. MTBA isn't going to say that slower riders should hold their line and not move, as 90% of Australian MTB riding isn't racing, in which case the rule they suggested applies.
If you like you can let every rider go past in every situation, your not going to get on any ones bad side doing that... But I doubt in a race situation, many others will.
Enduro Dxxkheads
Hi all
I would like to open up the discussion on this topic in relation to rider behaviour at the STM event at Coondoo this weekend past. Without going into the messy reasons behind this post, I'll keep this as brief as possible. Here are a few key points I think need considering by race organisers.
1.) Simply stating "there is a no dickheads policy at this race" is not sufficient. A label "dickhead" can equally apply to "pro" riders too impatient to wait 10 seconds for an appropriate passing opportunity, but MORE AND MORE I find it applies to slow riders who are selfish and don't understand what to do when a faster rider wants to get past.
2.) COMMUNICATE. So many times I find I come up behind a slow rider and they dont say anything even after calling "rider back" and "track please" several times. They then move to the side at the most inappropriate point and expect you to accelerate from 10 - 20kph in the space of 10metres with no warning. TALK PEOPLE, IT'S REALLY QUITE SIMPLE. Cast your gaze up the track, pick a point that looks good and then tell the rider behind you what you are going to do. That way they can be in the right gear and pass effortlessly at said point, you dont have to stop, and you might not even need to slow down much as the faster rider goes past.
3.) Make it easy for the rider to pass you. Way too often I am shown the outside line on a corner for passing. This is a much longer and harder. Move to the outside of the corner and let the fast rider cut the corner and they'll be gone quicker than you can say "on my left"...which leads me to my next point.....
4.) "ON YOUR LEFT" means I am passing on your left. So many times I call "On your right" start passing on a wide section of track and the rider I am passing moves to....the right ARGHHHH! Noooo I am on your right, you move left!
5.) The best time for a faster rider to pass is before he has to brake and reduce his speed to your speed. If he gives you plenty of notice and the track is accomodating, he should be able to time it and pass you letting his momentum carry him by you. It also means the slower rider doesnt have to slow down much, they might even be able to hold the wheel of the faster rider for a little while hence receiving a nice little tow!
I think explaining some of these concepts at the race briefing rather than just saying "No dickheads please" will make for much safer and happier racing. It is a RACE not a SOCIAL RIDE.
Also worth mentioning, I have to say that the majority of this rant applies to weekend warrior MALE riders. Most of the chicks out there are cool and sensible and communicate with cheer and goodwill!
Keep riding
Mike
Hi all
I would like to open up the discussion on this topic in relation to rider behaviour at the STM event at Coondoo this weekend past. Without going into the messy reasons behind this post, I'll keep this as brief as possible. Here are a few key points I think need considering by race organisers.
1.) Simply stating "there is a no dickheads policy at this race" is not sufficient. A label "dickhead" can equally apply to "pro" riders too impatient to wait 10 seconds for an appropriate passing opportunity, but MORE AND MORE I find it applies to slow riders who are selfish and don't understand what to do when a faster rider wants to get past.
2.) COMMUNICATE. So many times I find I come up behind a slow rider and they dont say anything even after calling "rider back" and "track please" several times. They then move to the side at the most inappropriate point and expect you to accelerate from 10 - 20kph in the space of 10metres with no warning. TALK PEOPLE, IT'S REALLY QUITE SIMPLE. Cast your gaze up the track, pick a point that looks good and then tell the rider behind you what you are going to do. That way they can be in the right gear and pass effortlessly at said point, you dont have to stop, and you might not even need to slow down much as the faster rider goes past.
3.) Make it easy for the rider to pass you. Way too often I am shown the outside line on a corner for passing. This is a much longer and harder. Move to the outside of the corner and let the fast rider cut the corner and they'll be gone quicker than you can say "on my left"...which leads me to my next point.....
4.) "ON YOUR LEFT" means I am passing on your left. So many times I call "On your right" start passing on a wide section of track and the rider I am passing moves to....the right ARGHHHH! Noooo I am on your right, you move left!
5.) The best time for a faster rider to pass is before he has to brake and reduce his speed to your speed. If he gives you plenty of notice and the track is accomodating, he should be able to time it and pass you letting his momentum carry him by you. It also means the slower rider doesnt have to slow down much, they might even be able to hold the wheel of the faster rider for a little while hence receiving a nice little tow!
I think explaining some of these concepts at the race briefing rather than just saying "No dickheads please" will make for much safer and happier racing. It is a RACE not a SOCIAL RIDE.
Also worth mentioning, I have to say that the majority of this rant applies to weekend warrior MALE riders. Most of the chicks out there are cool and sensible and communicate with cheer and goodwill!
Keep riding
Mike
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Delmar
Likes Dirt
Plus one to the above. Some explanation is needed so people know what to do. That is to say, in the vast majority of situations where you get held up unnecessarily/run into, etc, the problem stems from ignorance and not bloody mindedness or aggression.
Probably no more than most races, but all of the traffic issues I had at the 12 last weekend were people stopping on the track and dragging bike out of way or braking to a stop, etc. Way too polite!! They should be clear that it's their right to keep going to a reasonable spot, etc etc as above in Mikes post.
I don't get to so many races at the moment, but is there a sense where the enduro scene has matured to a point where we feel as though we've been around for long enough where we don't want to repeat this stuff yet again? I seem to remember stu plant explaining passing processes at some length back in the day. Maybe we just need to get back to that...
And one thing Mike didn't mention... if you're involved in contact and the other rider goes down, YOU SHOULD STOP TO SEE IF ALL IS OK, right Mike?!
Probably no more than most races, but all of the traffic issues I had at the 12 last weekend were people stopping on the track and dragging bike out of way or braking to a stop, etc. Way too polite!! They should be clear that it's their right to keep going to a reasonable spot, etc etc as above in Mikes post.
I don't get to so many races at the moment, but is there a sense where the enduro scene has matured to a point where we feel as though we've been around for long enough where we don't want to repeat this stuff yet again? I seem to remember stu plant explaining passing processes at some length back in the day. Maybe we just need to get back to that...
And one thing Mike didn't mention... if you're involved in contact and the other rider goes down, YOU SHOULD STOP TO SEE IF ALL IS OK, right Mike?!
mittagongmtb
Likes Dirt
One of the biggest problems I have when being passed, is that not everyone will call that they are in a train of say 2-3 riders. The first rider passes safely and then before you know it 2 or more have joined the train without calling. It's as if they don't need to call 1 more or 2 more etc. Unfortunately I once cut off one of these people who attempted to piggyback a passing moment only for them to have contacted their handlebars with my seat post... it was in a very bad spot in the track and I believe they went straight over into the bushes. Essentially they were in the fault for not calling that they were in a train of 2-3.... (One of more memorable moments when being overtaken was when a particular european beer rider called track from about 20m away. There was no room for me to move over, but don't let that get in the way of this guy - he just kept going and passed with me being pushed off the track. Not a good look...)
Granted I've been out of the racing scene for a few years but I don't think things have changed much so as the faster and probably more experienced rider I think the onus is on you to do more.
If you come up on a slower rider consider they might be totally out of breath making conversation difficult, focussed on simply staying upright making conversation difficult, scared witless they are about to fall off/get pushed off the track making conversation difficult etc etc. Others just simply do not know any better.
I made it a point when coming up on a clearly slow rider to emphasise they were in control of when they were letting me pass ie. "when you're ready" or "in your own time" as opposed to simply "rider behind" or "track". If I could see or knew a suitable spot was coming up I would get them ready for it by telling them my intentions and that they could just keep doing what they were doing.
Sure it can be frustrating they aren't better at letting people through like more experienced riders but that's just the away it goes. I think a little empathy is required and certainly some more coaching/instruction which is probably a whole other topic.
In all the years I was racing I was rarely held up unreasonably more than a few times. The only rider to do it on purpose for nearly a km was subject to a safe but forceful move
I agree female riders are better in some circumstances (ego not in the equation I guess) although sometimes they are too quick to pull off the track even to their own detriment. Few times I've had to warn them off and make them stay on the trail although I do appreciate the effort.
mittagongmtb
Likes Dirt
they might be totally out of breath making conversation difficult
Hey you've seen me on the track!
I made it a point when coming up on a clearly slow rider to emphasise they were in control of when they were letting me pass ie. "when you're ready" or "in your own time" as opposed to simply "rider behind" or "track". If I could see or knew a suitable spot was coming up I would get them ready for it by telling them my intentions and that they could just keep doing what they were doing.
You must have passed me sometime or taught or learnt this from others because all the 'good guys' say this to me. The others forget that a podium place is only good for bragging rights for a day maybe. Today's news is tomorrows fish and chips wrapper.
Gixer7 - everything you have said is so true, especially when we're talking about what happens at punter races such as single track minded series. (I was at the STMS Coondoo race and didn't see or experience any bad manoeuvring... sorry -except for those who insist on riding on the coat tails of others when overtaking and who don't call out that they're in a train..)
Hey you've seen me on the track!
I made it a point when coming up on a clearly slow rider to emphasise they were in control of when they were letting me pass ie. "when you're ready" or "in your own time" as opposed to simply "rider behind" or "track". If I could see or knew a suitable spot was coming up I would get them ready for it by telling them my intentions and that they could just keep doing what they were doing.
You must have passed me sometime or taught or learnt this from others because all the 'good guys' say this to me. The others forget that a podium place is only good for bragging rights for a day maybe. Today's news is tomorrows fish and chips wrapper.
Gixer7 - everything you have said is so true, especially when we're talking about what happens at punter races such as single track minded series. (I was at the STMS Coondoo race and didn't see or experience any bad manoeuvring... sorry -except for those who insist on riding on the coat tails of others when overtaking and who don't call out that they're in a train..)
Clyde Dave
Likes Dirt
It's only a race for a select few. Others just think they are fast and expect people to jump out of the way at their whim. They need to get over themselves. Hey Mike?