Russia Vs. America; Here we go again kids!

PINT of Stella. mate! said:
On a personal note about 10 years back I travelled across Russia on the Trans-Siberian railway. During the journey I remember chatting with a lad in his 20's who like most Russian men had undergone national service in the army (i.e conscription). He was involved in the invasion of Georgia but to hear the way he'd described it, Russia were entirely the innocent party and it was all just a response to Georgian aggression. It was weird as the lad otherwise seemed like a fairly well informed, normal bloke. His English was quite good - far better than most Russians - so he wasn't your typical nationalist with zero experience with other countries or international media. In fact I got the impression that he was well aware of how the whole invasion was portrayed in the international press and he just wanted to assure me that Russia weren't the bad guys. I guess that goes to show how well Putin has been at playing the victim card.
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Similar story with a Chinese bloke I worked with. He came to Australia as a refugee by boat at age 4. Completely naturalised, but had some really concerning pro China views.

Saw the uigher, falun gong, human rights abuses etc all as overblown western propaganda. Complete brain washed fruitloop.

It's surprising how much influence china has even over somone in another country.
 
Squidfayce said:
Complete brain washed fruitloop.
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Likewise us in the west also buy a fair bit of garbage. If you look at the studies on social media and search engine biases, and the potential impact they have on public opinion, it's us that are the brainwashed fruitloops. Having said that we are all human and will get influenced in one way or another. Who's to say who is right or wrong? The whole Russia/Ukraine situation is a good example of that - two sides of the story, neither side talling the whole truth.
 
Apparently there are US B-52s in the air currently en route to Ukraine or something...
 
Calvin27 said:
Likewise us in the west also buy a fair bit of garbage. If you look at the studies on social media and search engine biases, and the potential impact they have on public opinion, it's us that are the brainwashed fruitloops. Having said that we are all human and will get influenced in one way or another. Who's to say who is right or wrong? The whole Russia/Ukraine situation is a good example of that - two sides of the story, neither side talling the whole truth.
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yes we do buy a lot of garbage. The internet and google are the biggest mind control machine ever built. Dr Robert Epstein has done some excellent work around proving it too.

Though I like to think there's levels. Buying the whole "China doesnt abuse human rights" pitch is completely unbelievable to most westerners even if they are susceptible to be influenced on local politics or which cider to buy for warm weather. Whos to say who's right/wrong? Most people who have critical thought and arent being restricted in their ability to seek out information can discern an outright falsehood like Chinas human rights record. Believing otherwise has to take some industrial grade propaganda and influence.
 
Squidfayce said:
yes we do buy a lot of garbage. The internet and google are the biggest mind control machine ever built. Dr Robert Epstein has done some excellent work around proving it too.

Though I like to think there's levels. Buying the whole "China doesnt abuse human rights" pitch is completely unbelievable to most westerners even if they are susceptible to be influenced on local politics or which cider to buy for warm weather. Whos to say who's right/wrong? Most people who have critical thought and arent being restricted in their ability to seek out information can discern an outright falsehood like Chinas human rights record. Believing otherwise has to take some industrial grade propaganda and influence.
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Remember when our PM said there was never slavery in Australia? How much history on the first Nations people's did you get in school, I didn't get much. Google and FB are just recent manifestations of long running strategy. Western history is a tool to continue the economic growth of the empires and the media is just 1 part of it. A funny saying I have heard is at least most Chinese people recognise that the media is propaganda unlike us.
 
Calvin27 said:
Likewise us in the west also buy a fair bit of garbage. If you look at the studies on social media and search engine biases, and the potential impact they have on public opinion, it's us that are the brainwashed fruitloops. Having said that we are all human and will get influenced in one way or another. Who's to say who is right or wrong? The whole Russia/Ukraine situation is a good example of that - two sides of the story, neither side talling the whole truth.
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Well, I like to think that the side that ISN'T invading another sovereign country and didn't kick off a conflict that has already killed tens of thousands gets the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, when it comes to Russia, even those with slightly better than rudimentary knowledge of the issue can note the massive historical inconsistencies of Putin's recent essay on Russia, along with the claims that all the highly trained and organised people wearing the same uniforms as the Russian army and carrying the same weapons aren't actually the Russian army occupying Eastern Ukraine. Lastly, I'd expect that it's Ukraine's decision on how to craft its own foreign policy, not Moscow's.

Similar with the PRC - I'm gonna go with the countries that don't surveil every part of life their citizens's lives, determine what can and cannot be discussed on the Internet, doesn't run a national system of black prisons and neither holds up to a million people in re-education camps where they are tortured, sterilised and denied the freedom to worship how they choose. Keep in mind, that the PRC has not denied almost all of those claims, the only one they deny is torture. So based on what comes out of Zhongnanhai, I'm pretty fucking comfortable in making a call on who the bad guy is here.

And yes, we are not angels - asylum seekers, Iraq 2003, stolen generation, almost all of Latin America during the Cold War, East Timor, etc. etc. None of us are angels. But right and wrong is not a game of relativity or whataboutism. Just because 'the West' isn't perfect doesn't mean that the worst authoritarian countries get a free fucking pass.

Lastly, social media and the digital realm is only the reality if you let it be so.
 
johnny said:
And yes, we are not angels - asylum seekers, Iraq 2003, stolen generation, almost all of Latin America during the Cold War, East Timor, etc. etc. None of us are angels. But right and wrong is not a game of relativity or whataboutism. Just because 'the West' isn't perfect doesn't mean that the worst authoritarian countries get a free fucking pass.

Lastly, social media and the digital realm is only the reality if you let it be so.
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Absolutely agree.

What would go someway to giving the West more legitimacy would be admitting we did these things rather than saying flat out we don't. Still waiting for a serious politician to admit we illegally invaded a sovereign country and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in 2003.
 
Litenbror said:
Remember when our PM said there was never slavery in Australia? How much history on the first Nations people's did you get in school, I didn't get much. Google and FB are just recent manifestations of long running strategy. Western history is a tool to continue the economic growth of the empires and the media is just 1 part of it. A funny saying I have heard is at least most Chinese people recognise that the media is propaganda unlike us.
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the original point i was making is that a chinese refugee who arrived in Australia with zero preconceived ideas of the place they were running from due to age, with all the trappings of a succsfull privelaged western life in australia was still able to be influenced by china to believe that china wasnt a human rights abuser, despite having access to unbiased information to the contrary.

Our PM is a moron, this guy was a bright guy. WHiel he may not have had indiginous history lessons, i can guarantee the local education system and local media didnt educate him about China being cool. That had to come externally, like the Chinese community, chinese language papers books etc.

Western history is a tool to continue the economic growth of empires? I'm not so sure I agree with that the way you've written it. Every history book I've read attempts to make an unbiased report of events. Some are known to be lean a particular way, others are known to be unbiased. If somone is interested in the topic of history in this country or other western countries, they are free to seek out the information and form their own view, have academic discussions about it and debate. I dont know that "Western history is a tool to continue economic growth". I'd say the technologies used by humans to consume information are that tool (books, internet, social media whatever). Not the history thats been written by litterally thougsands of different people. The ability to access all sorts of views and information about history is still pretty free and unfettered in western civ.

What some smart cookies are doing these days is rallying against big tech and their ability to influence us and tehyr emaking it known what is possible. We can only hope they make progress , because if we stat to only consume our information from a single point, controlled by a single or small number of corporations, then yeah your point will start to lean to that history being the "tool". I dont think we are there yet.
 
Litenbror said:
Absolutely agree.

What would go someway to giving the West more legitimacy would be admitting we did these things rather than saying flat out we don't. Still waiting for a serious politician to admit we illegally invaded a sovereign country and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in 2003.
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WHo would we need more legitimacy with? China? Russia? i think you have this around the wrong way.
 
Squidfayce said:
the original point i was making is that a chinese refugee who arrived in Australia with zero preconceived ideas of the place they were running from due to age, with all the trappings of a succsfull privelaged western life in australia was still able to be influenced by china to believe that china wasnt a human rights abuser, despite having access to unbiased information to the contrary.

Our PM is a moron, this guy was a bright guy. WHiel he may not have had indiginous history lessons, i can guarantee the local education system and local media didnt educate him about China being cool. That had to come externally, like the Chinese community, chinese language papers books etc.

Western history is a tool to continue the economic growth of empires? I'm not so sure I agree with that the way you've written it. Every history book I've read attempts to make an unbiased report of events. Some are known to be lean a particular way, others are known to be unbiased. If somone is interested in the topic of history in this country or other western countries, they are free to seek out the information and form their own view, have academic discussions about it and debate. I dont know that "Western history is a tool to continue economic growth". I'd say the technologies used by humans to consume information are that tool (books, internet, social media whatever). Not the history thats been written by litterally thougsands of different people. The ability to access all sorts of views and information about history is still pretty free and unfettered in western civ.

What some smart cookies are doing these days is rallying against big tech and their ability to influence us and tehyr emaking it known what is possible. We can only hope they make progress , because if we stat to only consume our information from a single point, controlled by a single or small number of corporations, then yeah your point will start to lean to that history being the "tool". I dont think we are there yet.
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Squidfayce said:
WHo would we need more legitimacy with? China? Russia? i think you have this around the wrong way.
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A lot to digest there and all good stuff. When I say Weston history is a tool for expanding the empire I'm talking about the base line we are taught in school. There is plenty of amazing history books out there and I'm reading as many as I can, which is informing the tilt of my opinion. To give it an IT analogy it like Microsoft and Linux, no question Linux is better but Microsoft is all 99.9% of people will ever use/have access to or want to use. The history we are taught in schools is all most people will ever know.

With regard to who we are seeking legitimacy with you always have a stronger argument if you demonstrate what you are preaching. Also probably going to have less of your own population questioning your motives if they believe your not full of shit. I mean honestly look at the US at the moment, you really want to export that trash fire around the world?

Edit: Never make the mistake that these bumbling idiots in Canberra are anything but very good actors. They don't get here because they are stupid they get here because they are intelligent ruthless amoral meat sacks.
 
Litenbror said:
A lot to digest there and all good stuff. When I say Weston history is a tool for expanding the empire I'm talking about the base line we are taught in school. There is plenty of amazing history books out there and I'm reading as many as I can, which is informing the tilt of my opinion. To give it an IT analogy it like Microsoft and Linux, no question Linux is better but Microsoft is all 99.9% of people will ever use/have access to or want to use. The history we are taught in schools is all most people will ever know.

With regard to who we are seeking legitimacy with you always have a stronger argument if you demonstrate what you are preaching. Also probably going to have less of your own population questioning your motives if they believe your not full of shit. I mean honestly look at the US at the moment, you really want to export that trash fire around the world?

Edit: Never make the mistake that these bumbling idiots in Canberra are anything but very good actors. They don't get here because they are stupid they get here because they are intelligent ruthless amoral meat sacks.
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I think you expect too much from the system. We learn baseline EVERYTHING in school. There isn't time to learn the intricacies of every subject, or even one arguably practically usless one. Further education has always been up to the individual.

When arguing against somone like China on human rights abuses, it wouldn't matter what we said, did or appologise for. Our legitimacy in the argument is irrelevant. China will do what China does regardless of what we (or the world) do or say.

Also, I give you Craig Kelly, Clive palmer and Craig Thompson. The list goes on. They aren't ruthless, they are stupid. Legitimately stupid. Ruthless, smart people don't forget aboriginal slavery is part of our dark history or misread the room on sexual assault in 2021 then get advice on the matter from their wives.
 
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Squidfayce said:
I think you expect too much from the system. We learn baseline EVERYTHING in school. There isn't time to learn the intricacies of every subject, or even one arguably practically usless one. Further education has always been up to the individual.

When arguing against somone like China on human rights abuses, it wouldn't matter what we said, did or appologise for. Our legitimacy in the argument is irrelevant. China will do what China does regardless of what we (or the world) do or say.

Also, I give you Craig Kelly, Clive palmer and Craig Thompson. The list goes on. They aren't ruthless, they are stupid. Legitimately stupid. Ruthless, smart people don't forget aboriginal slavery is part of our dark history or misread the room on sexual assault in 2021 then get advice from their wives.
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Fair call with the likes of Craig Kelly, George Christiansen etc but they are richer than me so they must be doing something right.

Yes China will do what China wants regardless, and so will we. Yes China is repressive and has a terrible record on human rights, until recently so did we. We supported the Saudis to chair the human rights commission at the UN because they are an ally but they have a horrific record on human rights.

We have spent the last 400 years invading, stealing and killing on almost every continent on the planet and because we have gotten a bit better in the last 50 years we expect everyone to listen to us.

With regard to expecting too much from the system I probably am but what I'm pointing out is we have our own skewed history we teach our people it's not just other countries that do this. What I'm starting to realise from history is how long it is and how most people haven't learnt the most valuable lessons.
 
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