Russia Vs. America; Here we go again kids!

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
So now that china is going to sell weapons to Russia, do we stop trading with them as soon as this happens.
Will we no longer try and flog off iron ore and coal to them or will we carry on supplies like pig iron bob until too late.
If you own a Chinese made car I think you had better start stocking up parts as we will have to stop trading with them.

OR WILL LABOR JUST CAVE (-:
Why would we stop trading with them? What would that achieve? It's not like we can put pressure on the Chinese population to force a change at the next election.


Also I haven't seen any news that says China is selling weapons, just diplomatic posturing. They probably will (Russia needs some kind of supply for all that artillery and rockets they spray indiscriminately at everything), but we'll never know about it.
Not quite. In the age of countering disinformation, the play is to get your narrative out first to stop the other guy from getting his out (the first one usually wins the battle for supremacy). You will note that the US released heaps of intelligence in the lead up to the invasion, saying what was going to happen, where and when. This either stopped Russia from carrying out acts (false flag ops were foiled) or ensured that they were unable to attach their reasoning to their own actions (other than for the people who want to believe Russia no matter what). This approach has been very successful and you can now see the same thing occurring in Moldova/Transdneistra with the claims that Russia is prepping a false flag there, possibly to attack Odessa or Moldova proper.

The US have been very front-footed about China's intent shifting to supply Russia. Given the importance of that relationship, the release of the intelligence around China considering supplying lethal aid to Russia would have been cleared by the President. So I'd be pretty confident that their claims are accurate on this count. If you care to look for it, you can also find some pretty convincing (not to say conclusive) evidence that that has been lethal military aid crossing the border from DPRK into Russia. There is considerable authoritative opinion that that aid originated in China. All in open source if you care to search for it.

I was going to say the same thing but I think we're prolonging the issues. See Japan has militarised islands between China and Japan, and the Philippines have an open book for the US troops to the renter. Things aren't looking good for the future between Australia and China, no matter how you look at it. Maybe if Jinping gets fucked off things might change.
There are no islands between Japan and China. There are the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, which they argue over, but they haven't been militarised as they're far too small. The southern islands of Japan have large deployments/capabilities/defences on them, but that's been the case since WWII - many of those capabilities are American.

RP isn't an open book to the US, although I acknowledge that under Bongbong they're currently opening up again. But, under Duterte, the previous president there was real doubt whether the US would retain access to Subic and other points. This was not the first time the US had access restricted. The US had to remove all its forces from the Philippines for almost a decade in the 1990s. Also keep in mind that the RP Pres. only gets a single 5 year term in office, so the political tides can change pretty quickly up there.

But from a purely Australian perspective, what exactly is the issue that we are worried about?
I assume that it's China ceasing all trade with us, but they love buying our resources and selling us cheap crap, so why would they do something that hurts themselves as much as us?
They want more dominance in the region? Ok great. Do we really care? It may have an effect on other trade deals we have in the region, but that's literally what diplomacy is meant to be all about (pity we've wasted about 20 years of it).
Blocking of trade routes? Possible, but to what end? We can feed ourselves, it wuld likely just jumpstart local production which cuts into their trade, and we're so big that there's just too many sea-lanes to cover (cost would go up astronomically for us though).
We're not a military threat to them (except as a tiny piece of a potential US issue) and they aren't a threat to us (except for all the US bases we're allowing)
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but there is just so much wrong with what you've said there.

China cannot cut trade with us on iron ore, coal and other raw materials. Plus, they have a lot of investments here they want to retain access to. However, China has just gone through a period of trying to coerce Australia economically, cutting access for 14 ranges of commodity. From lobster, to barley to red wide, etc. etc. It hurt many Australian producers, but Australia didn't buckle and many of those producers blamed China, rather than pressuring the Aust govt. So the Chinese strategy of economic coercion has failed and they're starting to take shipments of many of these commodities again. But don't make the mistake of thinking that they won't accpet hardship in order to inflict pain on us if they have to. IF they wanted to, They could easily turn off the tap off of Chinese students in a month, and that would hurt us pretty bad. They could stop a lot of investment in Australian real estate and so many other areas that would have an impact.

Do we care if China has dominance in the region? Well, just have a look at the South China Sea and the nine dash line. That's what dominance looks like. They are trying to tell the Filipinos, Vietnamese, MAlysians, etc, that they can't send their navy out to protect their own coast lines - that China owns their front door step because "China was there first". According to the way China reads the script, they can sail the PLAN right up to the door step of multiple other countries, do what they want in that water and the other countries should happily accept it. That is called coercive control and a loss of sovereignty. If this were to be the case, China could use force to coerce any country in that region whenever it wanted.

Have a look at how China treats its own citizens, you think it's going to treat the citizens of other countries any better than that when they have dominance over them? Maybe dig into how Chinese firms treat local workers when they own large projects off shore to give an indication. Then look at the kind of governments they prop up in Africa and elsewhere and ask yourself what a China dominated region might look like in practice.

We can feed ourselves? You might want to look up where we get our fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides from, just for a start. Then consider that we want our future to be based on prosperity, not simple survival. Have a read into how much of our fresh food is imported from OS. Then consider the shocks we've endured over the last two years due to severe weather events. Put that picture together and ask yourself how resilient we REALLY are.

Naval blockades: I think you need to do a bit of reading into how they work. There are near blockades, there are far blockades. That alone should give you enough understanding that it's not only about sealing physical access. Then you can consider what would happen to the cost of shipping/insurance if a number of vessels were simply boarded and commandeered for a few weeks in the Indian and PAcific Oceans. You can also consider the impact if just a single vessel was scuttled in a deniable operation carried out by a submarine. There are many ways to skin a cat when you want to disrupt the flow of commerce to an island.

If they don't see us as a threat, why do we measure disproportionately in Chinese attention? Why have we been the major target for Chinese economic coercion over the past 3-4 years? Have a read of DG ASIO's annual threat brief from Monday this week and try to make a convincing argument that China doesn't see Australia as a threat. Read the last two defence white papers and strategic updates and make the argument that the Dept. of Defence doesn't feel threatened by Chinese capability and intent.
 
Last edited:

Flow-Rider

Burner
Why would we stop trading with them? What would that achieve? It's not like we can put pressure on the Chinese population to force a change at the next election.




Not quite. In the age of countering disinformation, the play is to get your narrative out first to stop the other guy from getting his out (the first one usually wins the battle for supremacy). You will note that the US released heaps of intelligence in the lead up to the invasion, saying what was going to happen, where and when. This either stopped Russia from carrying out acts (false flag ops were foiled) or ensured that they were unable to attach their reasoning to their own actions (other than for the people who want to believe Russia no matter what). This approach has been very successful and you can now see the same thing occurring in Moldova/Transdneistra with the claims that Russia is prepping a false flag there, possibly to attack Odessa or Moldova proper.

The US have been very front-footed about China's intent shifting to supply Russia. Given the importance of that relationship, the release of the intelligence around China considering supplying lethal aid to Russia would have been cleared by the President. So I'd be pretty confident that their claims are accurate on this count. If you care to look for it, you can also find some pretty convincing (not to say conclusive) evidence that that has been lethal military aid crossing the border from DPRK into Russia. There is considerable authoritative opinion that that aid originated in China. All in open source if you care to search for it.



There are no islands between Japan and China. There are the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, which they argue over, but they haven't been militarised as they're far too small. The southern islands of Japan have large deployments/capabilities/defences on them, but that's been the case since WWII - many of those capabilities are American.

RP isn't an open book to the US, although I acknowledge that under Bongbong they're currently opening up again. But, under Duterte, the previous president there was real doubt whether the US would retain access to Subic and other points. This was not the first time the US had access restricted. The US had to remove all its forces from the Philippines for almost a decade in the 1990s. Also keep in mind that the RP Pres. only gets a single 5 year term in office, so the political tides can change pretty quickly up there.



I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but there is just so much wrong with what you've said there.

China cannot cut trade with us on iron ore, coal and other raw materials. Plus, they have a lot of investments here they want to retain access to. However, China has just gone through a period of trying to coerce Australia economically, cutting access for 14 ranges of commodity. From lobster, to barley to red wide, etc. etc. It hurt many Australian producers, but Australia didn't buckle and many of those producers blamed China, rather than pressuring the Aust govt. So the Chinese strategy of economic coercion has failed and they're starting to take shipments of many of these commodities again. But don't make the mistake of thinking that they won't accpet hardship in order to inflict pain on us if they have to. IF they wanted to, They could easily turn off the tap off of Chinese students in a month, and that would hurt us pretty bad. They could stop a lot of investment in Australian real estate and so many other areas that would have an impact.

Do we care if China has dominance in the region? Well, just have a look at the South China Sea and the nine dash line. That's what dominance looks like. They are trying to tell the Filipinos, Vietnamese, MAlysians, etc, that they can't send their navy out to protect their own coast lines - that China owns their front door step because "China was there first". According to the way China reads the script, they can sail the PLAN right up to the door step of multiple other countries, do what they want in that water and the other countries should happily accept it. That is called coercive control and a loss of sovereignty. If this were to be the case, China could use force to coerce any country in that region whenever it wanted.

Have a look at how China treats its own citizens, you think it's going to treat the citizens of other countries any better than that when they have dominance over them? Maybe dig into how Chinese firms treat local workers when they own large projects off shore to give an indication. Then look at the kind of governments they prop up in Africa and elsewhere and ask yourself what a China dominated region might look like in practice.

We can feed ourselves? You might want to look up where we get our fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides from, just for a start. Then consider that we want our future to be based on prosperity, not simple survival. Have a read into how much of our fresh food is imported from OS. Then consider the shocks we've endured over the last two years due to severe weather events. Put that picture together and ask yourself how resilient we REALLY are.

Naval blockades: I think you need to do a bit of reading into how they work. There are near blockades, there are far blockades. That alone should give you enough understanding that it's not only about sealing physical access. Then you can consider what would happen to the cost of shipping/insurance if a number of vessels were simply boarded and commandeered for a few weeks in the Indian and PAcific Oceans. You can also consider the impact if just a single vessel was scuttled in a deniable operation carried out by a submarine. There are many ways to skin a cat when you want to disrupt the flow of commerce to an island.

If they don't see us as a threat, why do we measure disproportionately in Chinese attention? Why have we been the major target for Chinese economic coercion over the past 3-4 years? Have a read of DG ASIO's annual threat brief from Monday this week and try to make a convincing argument that China doesn't see Australia as a threat. Read the last two defence white papers and strategic updates and make the argument that the Dept. of Defence doesn't feel threatened by Chinese capability and intent.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yep, just to be a pedantic dickwad, that's not the islands between Japan and China, that's the islands of Japan and there have been bases down there for almost (probably over) 100 years - so they've always been militarised.

But, there is no doubt that Japan is beefing itself up, including in the south. They are reinterpreting their pacifist constitution to allow their army to deploy in support of allies, they can now deploy offensive weapons in defence of national interests, they have been moving more strategic platforms (5th gen fighters, etc.) to the southern islands and they are increasing cooperation with like-minded countries (think Quad and Malabar ex, increasing military ties wtih countries like us, etc.)

The whole region is doing this, not just Japan. The amount of strategic platforms (4.5 gen fighters, submarines, C4ISR and space assets) and strategic weapons such as ASM/ASCM, sea mining capabilities, etc. that are coming into the region over the last 15 years is pretty alarming. Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and I think Singapore have all poured new subs into the waters in the last 10 years. Anyone who says that there isn't a nacent regional arms race has missed the whole last ten years.
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
Yep, so that's not the islands between Japan and China, that's the islands of Japan and there have been bases down there for almost (probably over) 100 years - so they've always been militarised.

But, there is no doubt that Japan is beefing itself up, including in the south. They are reinterpreting their pacifist constitution to allow their army to deploy in support of allies, they can now deploy offensive weapons in defence of national interests, they have been moving more strategic platforms (5th gen fighters, etc.) to the southern islands and they are increasing cooperation with like-minded countries (think Quad and Malabar ex, increasing military ties wtih countries like us, etc.)

The whole region is doing this, not just Japan. The amount of strategic platforms (4.5 gen fighters, submarines, C4ISR and space assets) and strategic weapons such as ASM/ASCM, sea mining capabilities, etc. that are coming into the region over the last 15 years is pretty alarming. Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and I think Singapore have all poured new subs into the waters in the last 10 years. Anyone who says that there isn't a nacent regional arms race has missed the whole last ten years.
Even the locals claim that they were surprised by the new base on Ishigarki, I know the media likes making things out bigger than what they are but there is the same intimidation with naval ships in the Philippines' Scarborough shoals, it's not a good look for China.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Why would we stop trading with them? What would that achieve? It's not like we can put pressure on the Chinese population to force a change at the next election.




Not quite. In the age of countering disinformation, the play is to get your narrative out first to stop the other guy from getting his out (the first one usually wins the battle for supremacy). You will note that the US released heaps of intelligence in the lead up to the invasion, saying what was going to happen, where and when. This either stopped Russia from carrying out acts (false flag ops were foiled) or ensured that they were unable to attach their reasoning to their own actions (other than for the people who want to believe Russia no matter what). This approach has been very successful and you can now see the same thing occurring in Moldova/Transdneistra with the claims that Russia is prepping a false flag there, possibly to attack Odessa or Moldova proper.

The US have been very front-footed about China's intent shifting to supply Russia. Given the importance of that relationship, the release of the intelligence around China considering supplying lethal aid to Russia would have been cleared by the President. So I'd be pretty confident that their claims are accurate on this count. If you care to look for it, you can also find some pretty convincing (not to say conclusive) evidence that that has been lethal military aid crossing the border from DPRK into Russia. There is considerable authoritative opinion that that aid originated in China. All in open source if you care to search for it.



There are no islands between Japan and China. There are the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, which they argue over, but they haven't been militarised as they're far too small. The southern islands of Japan have large deployments/capabilities/defences on them, but that's been the case since WWII - many of those capabilities are American.

RP isn't an open book to the US, although I acknowledge that under Bongbong they're currently opening up again. But, under Duterte, the previous president there was real doubt whether the US would retain access to Subic and other points. This was not the first time the US had access restricted. The US had to remove all its forces from the Philippines for almost a decade in the 1990s. Also keep in mind that the RP Pres. only gets a single 5 year term in office, so the political tides can change pretty quickly up there.



I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but there is just so much wrong with what you've said there.

China cannot cut trade with us on iron ore, coal and other raw materials. Plus, they have a lot of investments here they want to retain access to. However, China has just gone through a period of trying to coerce Australia economically, cutting access for 14 ranges of commodity. From lobster, to barley to red wide, etc. etc. It hurt many Australian producers, but Australia didn't buckle and many of those producers blamed China, rather than pressuring the Aust govt. So the Chinese strategy of economic coercion has failed and they're starting to take shipments of many of these commodities again. But don't make the mistake of thinking that they won't accpet hardship in order to inflict pain on us if they have to. IF they wanted to, They could easily turn off the tap off of Chinese students in a month, and that would hurt us pretty bad. They could stop a lot of investment in Australian real estate and so many other areas that would have an impact.

Do we care if China has dominance in the region? Well, just have a look at the South China Sea and the nine dash line. That's what dominance looks like. They are trying to tell the Filipinos, Vietnamese, MAlysians, etc, that they can't send their navy out to protect their own coast lines - that China owns their front door step because "China was there first". According to the way China reads the script, they can sail the PLAN right up to the door step of multiple other countries, do what they want in that water and the other countries should happily accept it. That is called coercive control and a loss of sovereignty. If this were to be the case, China could use force to coerce any country in that region whenever it wanted.

Have a look at how China treats its own citizens, you think it's going to treat the citizens of other countries any better than that when they have dominance over them? Maybe dig into how Chinese firms treat local workers when they own large projects off shore to give an indication. Then look at the kind of governments they prop up in Africa and elsewhere and ask yourself what a China dominated region might look like in practice.

We can feed ourselves? You might want to look up where we get our fertilisers, herbicides and pesticides from, just for a start. Then consider that we want our future to be based on prosperity, not simple survival. Have a read into how much of our fresh food is imported from OS. Then consider the shocks we've endured over the last two years due to severe weather events. Put that picture together and ask yourself how resilient we REALLY are.

Naval blockades: I think you need to do a bit of reading into how they work. There are near blockades, there are far blockades. That alone should give you enough understanding that it's not only about sealing physical access. Then you can consider what would happen to the cost of shipping/insurance if a number of vessels were simply boarded and commandeered for a few weeks in the Indian and PAcific Oceans. You can also consider the impact if just a single vessel was scuttled in a deniable operation carried out by a submarine. There are many ways to skin a cat when you want to disrupt the flow of commerce to an island.

If they don't see us as a threat, why do we measure disproportionately in Chinese attention? Why have we been the major target for Chinese economic coercion over the past 3-4 years? Have a read of DG ASIO's annual threat brief from Monday this week and try to make a convincing argument that China doesn't see Australia as a threat. Read the last two defence white papers and strategic updates and make the argument that the Dept. of Defence doesn't feel threatened by Chinese capability and intent.
The weird thing for me is why bother?

In the space of 10 years China has gone from a situation where it was on pretty good terms with most of it's neighbours to being encircled by countries pissed off with it. It's like Imperial Japan 2.0.

My family is from Taiwan and it's a wonderful country but it's hardly worth risking mountains of blood and treasure for. The Taiwan straight is 130kms wide and less than 150m deep, it's rumoured to be absolutely dotted with automated mine systems from both sides.

The island itself has a huge mountain range running N to S that provides a huge radar shadow and a rat warren of artillery and missile emplacements all dug into volcanic basalt.

It has airfields in that radar shadow and lots and lots of SAMs, anti-ballistic missile systems and radar guided flak. These protect a lack lustre navy, army, and air force but in reality it's the modern cruise missiles and artillery that the PLA needs to worry about (and the rumoured nukes).

If WW3 were to kick off properly N Korea would probably do something dumb and get bitch smacked by the South. China would suddenly find a very heavily armed and pissed off unified Korea on its northern flank backed up by Japan and the US.

India and all its other neighbours would probably settle up all of their border disputes at the same time. Finally if the US could find some way to interrupt oil supplies from Russia, the whole thing would be over in less than 3 months either with nuclear Armageddon or the armed forces running out of fuel.

Why would you choose this over continued peaceful prosperity and development?

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rockmoose

his flabber is totally gastered
The weird thing for me is why bother?

In the space of 10 years China has gone from a situation where it was on pretty good terms with most of it's neighbours to being encircled by countries pissed off with it. It's like Imperial Japan 2.0.

My family is from Taiwan and it's a wonderful country but it's hardly worth risking mountains of blood and treasure for. The Taiwan straight is 130kms wide and less than 150m deep, it's rumoured to be absolutely dotted with automated mine systems from both sides.

The island itself has a huge mountain range running N to S that provides a huge radar shadow and a rat warren of artillery and missile emplacements all dug into volcanic basalt.

It has airfields in that radar shadow and lots and lots of SAMs, anti-ballistic missile systems and radar guided flak. These protect a lack lustre navy, army, and air force but in reality it's the modern cruise missiles and artillery that the PLA needs to worry about (and the rumoured nukes).

If WW3 were to kick off properly N Korea would probably do something dumb and get bitch smacked by the South. China would suddenly find a very heavily armed and pissed off unified Korea on its northern flank backed up by Japan and the US.

India and all its other neighbours would probably settle up all of their border disputes at the same time. Finally if the US could find some way to interrupt oil supplies from Russia, the whole thing would be over in less than 3 months either with nuclear Armageddon or the armed forces running out of fuel.

Why would you choose this over continued peaceful prosperity and development?

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk
Power and control.

We need MOAR.

Classic, little dick energy from insecure narcissists.
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
Democracy Vs communism, from what I understand they feel bullied by the west, particularly the US. They basically want Taiwan back and the US have already alleged that they'll defend it if comes to that. They also want the whole south china sea to themselves. It's been well documented about the human rights issues they had with protesters and Uyghurs, and the west has always been big on antirepression of governments.

Nothing wrong with countries trying to grow, it's just when they start showing aggression that could lead to bigger things.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Democracy Vs communism, from what I understand they feel bullied by the west, particularly the US. They basically want Taiwan back and the US have already alleged that they'll defend it if comes to that. They also want the whole south china sea to themselves. It's been well documented about the human rights issues they had with protesters and Uyghurs, and the west has always been big on antirepression of governments.

Nothing wrong with countries trying to grow, it's just when they start showing aggression that could lead to bigger things.
That's horse shit. The Chinese put about as much stock in that as Santa Claus. A fuck load of Chinese have been to Taiwan or have worked with the Taiwanese. They know invading Taiwan and claiming the south China sea is a giant vanity project.

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Flow-Rider

Burner
That's horse shit. The Chinese put about as much stock in that as Santa Claus. A fuck load of Chinese have been to Taiwan or have worked with the Taiwanese. They know invading Taiwan and claiming the south China sea is a giant vanity project.

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk
Why is everyone building up military forces in the area for then, it's not just for fun? It costs countries a lot of money, countries like Japan, don't really have the economy to support such things.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Why is everyone building up military forces in the area for then, it's not just for fun? It costs countries a lot of money, countries like Japan, don't really have the economy to support such things.
I'm referring to the Chinese public here to be clear.

It's a classic arms race. Similar to Western Europe for most of the last 600 years.

Similarly, if China stabilised it's relationship with it's neighbours, Asia could enjoy a peace dividend.

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Flow-Rider

Burner
I'm referring to the Chinese public here to be clear.

It's a classic arms race. Similar to Western Europe for most of the last 600 years.

Similarly, if China stabilised it's relationship with it's neighbours, Asia could enjoy a peace dividend.

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk
Taiwan can just go back to being under Chinese rule, no need for people to protest then, and everyone shakes hands and peace in both nations. ;) There's clear intimidation with Japan and the Philippines with Chinese navel ships, it is obvious about the sea floor mining and there are pics of that around too, they could play nicer but they don't. The dick show of the biggest rockets is another issue, no point in taking a knife to a fight if you're not prepared to use it.
 

Asininedrivel

caviar connoisseur
If you care to look for it, you can also find some pretty convincing (not to say conclusive) evidence that that has been lethal military aid crossing the border from DPRK into Russia. There is considerable authoritative opinion that that aid originated in China. All in open source if you care to search for it.
I'd seen the news that the DPRK was supplying or intending to supply Russia with ammunition last year and wondered how they'd got that deal happening, given the DPRK's total paranoia for enormous stockpiles to feed their enormous army. Slipping Chinese stuff through that door makes a lot more sense.

FWIW the territorial claims China is pressing on the South China sea also overlap some truly massive gas and oil reserves. Still doesn't really check out though, China might be hugely powerful, but I don't see how they're powerful enough to overwhelm every single nation they've seriously antagonised recently.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
The weird thing for me is why bother?

In the space of 10 years China has gone from a situation where it was on pretty good terms with most of it's neighbours to being encircled by countries pissed off with it. It's like Imperial Japan 2.0.

My family is from Taiwan and it's a wonderful country but it's hardly worth risking mountains of blood and treasure for. The Taiwan straight is 130kms wide and less than 150m deep, it's rumoured to be absolutely dotted with automated mine systems from both sides.

The island itself has a huge mountain range running N to S that provides a huge radar shadow and a rat warren of artillery and missile emplacements all dug into volcanic basalt.

It has airfields in that radar shadow and lots and lots of SAMs, anti-ballistic missile systems and radar guided flak. These protect a lack lustre navy, army, and air force but in reality it's the modern cruise missiles and artillery that the PLA needs to worry about (and the rumoured nukes).

If WW3 were to kick off properly N Korea would probably do something dumb and get bitch smacked by the South. China would suddenly find a very heavily armed and pissed off unified Korea on its northern flank backed up by Japan and the US.

India and all its other neighbours would probably settle up all of their border disputes at the same time. Finally if the US could find some way to interrupt oil supplies from Russia, the whole thing would be over in less than 3 months either with nuclear Armageddon or the armed forces running out of fuel.

Why would you choose this over continued peaceful prosperity and development?

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk
Democracy Vs communism, from what I understand they feel bullied by the west, particularly the US. They basically want Taiwan back and the US have already alleged that they'll defend it if comes to that. They also want the whole south china sea to themselves. It's been well documented about the human rights issues they had with protesters and Uyghurs, and the west has always been big on antirepression of governments.

Nothing wrong with countries trying to grow, it's just when they start showing aggression that could lead to bigger things.
Taiwan can just go back to being under Chinese rule, no need for people to protest then, and everyone shakes hands and peace in both nations. ;) There's clear intimidation with Japan and the Philippines with Chinese navel ships, it is obvious about the sea floor mining and there are pics of that around too, they could play nicer but they don't. The dick show of the biggest rockets is another issue, no point in taking a knife to a fight if you're not prepared to use it.
China has a very rational reason to want Taiwan within its fold. I also wouldn't get too hung up on the resources within the South China Sea. They are, of course valuable, but I couldn't see the PRC acting this way if it were just for some protein and hydrocarbons it could get elsewhere.

The first island chain provides either a barrier for invasion or a way to contain China. Countries need geographic barriers to anchor their national defence on. The US has to great oceans either side, a frozen wilderness to the north and a mess of desert, banditry and disorganisation to the south. They can see anyone coming from a mile away and can fight their battles out in the ocean or on the European mainland.

China has the frozen/muddy wastes of Siberia to the north, The Tarim basin and desert to the west, the Himalayas and jungles to the south. But on their coastline, right where all their population, industry and arable land is, they have Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Philippines. All US ally states or protectorates. China has twice been invaded from its coastal region, it understands its vulnerabilities.

The chain of islands that hem it in to the east, can also block its access to the wider world. Those maritime bottle necks in between JApan/Taiwan, Taiwan/Philippines, Philippines/Indonesia/Malaysia and Indonesia/Singapore can easily be patrolled by a small number of subs blocking China's access to the greater global commons; no trade, no raw materials, no energy imports.

If the US wanted to gather a coalition to invade China, it can utilise Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, etc. as bases for forward operations. That means any war that China fights will be on its coastline, right in the middle of its strategic centre of gravity (people, industry, food, infrastructure, etc.). Beijing, of course does not want that. It would prefer to push out past the first island chain so it could use the islands and straits as force multipliers for its own defence. It has even had a strategy in the past called "Near Seas Defence, Far Seas Operations", which details all of what I've said above. It's open source and can be easily found.

Lastly, Should the PRC own the South China Sea, it would also become a bastion for it's nuclear subs/SSBNs. It could have a constant at sea deterrent without even venturing into the oceans. Their subs can stay hidden under the water but out of the reach of other subs, towed arrays, etc. all hidden behind the first island chain buffer.

OF course, the PRC has embedded Taiwan and the South China Sea into national mythology. The leaders are trapped into uniting these territories with the mainland or losing their legitimacy. But the strategic importance of these features is, by far the over-riding motivator for China's actions.

1677403952435.png
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
China has a very rational reason to want Taiwan within its fold. I also wouldn't get too hung up on the resources within the South China Sea. They are, of course valuable, but I couldn't see the PRC acting this way if it were just for some protein and hydrocarbons it could get elsewhere.

The first island chain provides either a barrier for invasion or a way to contain China. Countries need geographic barriers to anchor their national defence on. The US has to great oceans either side, a frozen wilderness to the north and a mess of desert, banditry and disorganisation to the south. They can see anyone coming from a mile away and can fight their battles out in the ocean or on the European mainland.

China has the frozen/muddy wastes of Siberia to the north, The Tarim basin and desert to the west, the Himalayas and jungles to the south. But on their coastline, right where all their population, industry and arable land is, they have Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Philippines. All US ally states or protectorates. China has twice been invaded from its coastal region, it understands its vulnerabilities.

The chain of islands that hem it in to the east, can also block its access to the wider world. Those maritime bottle necks in between JApan/Taiwan, Taiwan/Philippines, Philippines/Indonesia/Malaysia and Indonesia/Singapore can easily be patrolled by a small number of subs blocking China's access to the greater global commons; no trade, no raw materials, no energy imports.

If the US wanted to gather a coalition to invade China, it can utilise Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, etc. as bases for forward operations. That means any war that China fights will be on its coastline, right in the middle of its strategic centre of gravity (people, industry, food, infrastructure, etc.). Beijing, of course does not want that. It would prefer to push out past the first island chain so it could use the islands and straits as force multipliers for its own defence. It has even had a strategy in the past called "Near Seas Defence, Far Seas Operations", which details all of what I've said above. It's open source and can be easily found.

Lastly, Should the PRC own the South China Sea, it would also become a bastion for it's nuclear subs/SSBNs. It could have a constant at sea deterrent without even venturing into the oceans. Their subs can stay hidden under the water but out of the reach of other subs, towed arrays, etc. all hidden behind the first island chain buffer.

OF course, the PRC has embedded Taiwan and the South China Sea into national mythology. The leaders are trapped into uniting these territories with the mainland or losing their legitimacy. But the strategic importance of these features is, by far the over-riding motivator for China's actions.

View attachment 397353
Such thinking worked a treat for Imperial Japan and the German Empire.

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johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Such thinking worked a treat for Imperial Japan and the German Empire.

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Brits were happy with it for a couple hundred. Served the Americans pretty well so far too.

Achieving strategic buffers/depth is pretty standard stuff for rising powers. I clearly don't support the PRC, but most other great powers would be doing the same thing in their situation. Just as you've highlighted above, and just as Israel is doing in Palestine, just as the Russians are doing in Ukraine, etc.
 

Asininedrivel

caviar connoisseur
TBH I don't really see how else Russia can stay in this war, at least for longer than 12 months. While their economy will weather the sanctions and they can keep dredging cannon fodder from all the far flung regions where unemployment is high, education is low and the prospect of a paid 6 month stint in the army aided by a generous amount of propaganda will probably work forever no matter how high the casualties get.

But the artillery shells? The guidance chips for all those missiles? All those lost T-72s and BMP3s? Who is going to resupply those out of any of Russia's current allies? That Russia is already seeking Chinese support just shows how fubar the situation is for them. Reckon it'll come at a heavy cost too, unless Xi is just feeling all philanthropic about propping up a fellow megalomaniacal dictator.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Brits were happy with it for a couple hundred. Served the Americans pretty well so far too.

Achieving strategic buffers/depth is pretty standard stuff for rising powers. I clearly don't support the PRC, but most other great powers would be doing the same thing in their situation. Just as you've highlighted above, and just as Israel is doing in Palestine, just as the Russians are doing in Ukraine, etc.
The difference is that the US and the UK have sea borders.

Seabourne contested invasions are difficult things, and in the last 1000 years the US and the Japanese are the only ones to have really pulled them off.

China really needs a different defence concept given their massive land borders. Killing their neighbours with kindness and using them as a buffer would probably work pretty well.

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