Stumpjumper FSR S-Works - Coiled Goodness

Z

Zaf

Guest
Yeah, I'm 6'2" and 95kg ride weight currently (I was lighter last year around the 90kg mark ride ready, earlier this year, after Easter I stacked a bit of Christmas weight and clocked 105kg), dropping down to about 85kg target ride weight, leaned out a fair bit so far, I can probably get to 90kg before I need to lose muscle mass to drop it...trying to hold off on the starving myself to induce that process, it's not comfortable.

The DebonAir works too well, designed around smaller dudes I think. It was important I get correct sag with the custom shock, as it has lowered and slackened the bike, so running lower sag means I'm too close to pedal scraping, just didn't feel right.

The bike is super balanced, also had improvements to my Achilles from physiotherapy (teenage injury caused them to be really tight, short version). That's why my handlebars have come up and my saddle has come down, it's put me in a much better riding position that hasn't had me up over the front.

Sent from my Agora 4G Pro
 

mitchy_

Llama calmer
So with a high leverage ratio frame, the neg chamber is working too well, pulling the shock into its travel too easily?

Makes sense.
Correct. A lot of people think this is 'super plush' but it's working against them when you need massive pressures to achieve correct sag.

The FSR design naturally wants to be plush in its initial travel, and firm up in the end stroke... So putting a large negative chamber on it does exactly as you say. Fortunately the monarch air can has the ability to tune both sides of the air spring. (Although RS do advise not to put spacers in the negative side as it can cause the shock to not return to full extension, not really an issue on these bikes though)

Putting 2 spacers in mine dropped the pressure to achieve 30% sag from about 250psi to 220.
 

Bretto172

Likes Dirt
Good info

Wish i had of read this thread before spending hours researching the shock for my stumpy... Cheers for sharing Mr Zaf. Im within a couple of Kg's of you so very helpful.
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
This was the bike built up with the Light Bicycle 38mm Rims and a 105kg me riding it in Garapine earlier in the year. I wimped out on the road gap because I'd dislocated my shoulder coming into the rocks about 2/3rds of the way down that stage (a repeat injury from Rotorua March 2015), so once I finally got moving again, I was nursing my way down before I withdrew from racing. The photo only looks fast because the photographer was super kind.


Anyway, I've thrown my Rovals back on it now and it is quite different in character. Wheels make a HUGE difference to how a bike feels, and the 38mm Light Bicycles were build up to be bomb proof and stiff, so they are great for throwing the bike into the rough, they just don't deflect or squirm. The Rovals are so spritely though, they actually feel smoother over rough terrain, the Supercomp DT swiss spokes and the 32h, shallow rims don't transfer that feedback from the trail as much, but if you're buying the bike as trail bike I recommend the lighter wheels to get that out of it, it's a night and day difference even with tyres being the same (Minion DHF and SS).

Also, whilst I'm at it, the Minion SS is a completely different tyre on a narrow rim, and in a better way. I do need to retract some earlier comments I've made on the side RE: the squaring of the profile with the SS, I was okay with it on the 31.6 inner channel of the Light Bicycles, RIGHT up until I tried it on something else, then it became apparent what it wasn't doing properly.
 

Yeti Dan

Likes Dirt
So I should be okay to go from a 197mmx48mm shock to a 200mmx51mm shock on a Spesh?

How did you work out the calculations in terms of reduced BB height, slacker geo and extra travel?
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
So I should be okay to go from a 197mmx48mm shock to a 200mmx51mm shock on a Spesh?

How did you work out the calculations in terms of reduced BB height, slacker geo and extra travel?
You need to be careful with it. The Bike Yoke custom links are designed around using a longer stroke to achieve the same travel with a standard length. I'd read their documentation and follow recommendations they have if going that route.

The actual shock on the Stumpy appears to be a standard 200x51, with the shaft exchanged for the Yoke interface that Specialized use and then internally shimmed to reduce the stroke to achieve the intended leverage rate. If you drop the air and compress the shock fully, it bottoms out before the end of the shaft.

If you keep the stroke the same, but shorten the eye to eye, it's as if the bike is sitting into its travel at full extension (compared to the standard shock), but still maintains the same leverage ratio, so it will effectively lower and slacken the bike a little further. Gotta be careful that if you increase the stroke, or shorten the eye too much, that the seat doesn't contact the seat tube at full extension... Bad things will happen otherwise.

I will try pull out my diagrams and calculations tonight.
 

Yeti Dan

Likes Dirt
Ahh I missed the part where you got the custom bike yoke. Unfortunately they don't make one for a Camber... yet. :sad:
 

slimjim1

Fat boomers cloggin' ma leaderboard
Ahh I missed the part where you got the custom bike yoke. Unfortunately they don't make one for a Camber... yet. :sad:
Which year/model camber are we talking about specifically?

Curious as to what you are trying to achieve by going lower/slacker.
 

Yeti Dan

Likes Dirt
2014 Sworks. More interested in trying out the Fox DPS stuff over the CTD as opposed to going lower/slacker. Unfrotunately they don't make anything to Specialized with the new range.
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Ahh I missed the part where you got the custom bike yoke. Unfortunately they don't make one for a Camber... yet. :sad:
Sorry, I didn't explain properly, was rushing at the end of my lunch break at work, on the phone. Prepare for wall-o-text!!!

My bike didn't get a custom Yoke, I'm still using the standard suspension hardware for the frame and working within the 48mm stroke to 135mm rear travel leverage with work being done to the shock itself to achieve the ride characteristics I want. So the 2016 models use a 198x48 shock, which was revised from previous models using a 195x46mm shock. What I did, was bought a 195x46mm shock, then sent it off to NSD to re-shim to be a 195x48mm and add a slightly higher compression tune, as well as address the issues with sag.
The bike, static, stands as if it were 3mm into it's stroke compared to the standard length shock, which translates to about 8mm lower, but because it maintains the same stroke, it's still achieving 135mm of rear travel.

Now, that's how I achieved the change. What BikeYoke do with their custom links, is change the leverage rate on the rear suspension as well as create a standard shock interface. So if I were to get a BikeYoke mod for my Stumpy, I would run an unshimmed 200x51 shock would use the entirety of it's stroke to achieve the 135mm of rear travel. It is something I was flirting with doing prior to buying the Canyon, the Stumpy is super capable, and it would happily do my Enduro and Trail duties, and given the changes a wheelset has on how the bike performs, there is an incling to buy some Fox 36's in 150/160mm for it, and run a Float X or X2 on the rear with a lower leverage rate and a Bike Yoke linkage for Enduro duties. Little less appealing now that it fits the trail in my quiver quite nicely...something in me will always want to beast mode it though. :D

Hope that answers it comprehensively.
 

Yeti Dan

Likes Dirt
Sorry, I didn't explain properly, was rushing at the end of my lunch break at work, on the phone. Prepare for wall-o-text!!!

My bike didn't get a custom Yoke, I'm still using the standard suspension hardware for the frame and working within the 48mm stroke to 135mm rear travel leverage with work being done to the shock itself to achieve the ride characteristics I want. So the 2016 models use a 198x48 shock, which was revised from previous models using a 195x46mm shock. What I did, was bought a 195x46mm shock, then sent it off to NSD to re-shim to be a 195x48mm and add a slightly higher compression tune, as well as address the issues with sag.
The bike, static, stands as if it were 3mm into it's stroke compared to the standard length shock, which translates to about 8mm lower, but because it maintains the same stroke, it's still achieving 135mm of rear travel.

Now, that's how I achieved the change. What BikeYoke do with their custom links, is change the leverage rate on the rear suspension as well as create a standard shock interface. So if I were to get a BikeYoke mod for my Stumpy, I would run an unshimmed 200x51 shock would use the entirety of it's stroke to achieve the 135mm of rear travel. It is something I was flirting with doing prior to buying the Canyon, the Stumpy is super capable, and it would happily do my Enduro and Trail duties, and given the changes a wheelset has on how the bike performs, there is an incling to buy some Fox 36's in 150/160mm for it, and run a Float X or X2 on the rear with a lower leverage rate and a Bike Yoke linkage for Enduro duties. Little less appealing now that it fits the trail in my quiver quite nicely...something in me will always want to beast mode it though. :D

Hope that answers it comprehensively.
Ahh yeah sort of makes sense. I had a chat with one of the suspension guys this arvo and he said that I could get away with a 200mmx51mm eyelet and they would be able to use spacers to get it back to a 197mmx48mm. How that translates to a lower BB and slacker HA, I'm not too sure. i think the BB is a tad higher than stock already as I went with a 130mm fork up front (they come stock with 110mm).

Yeah X2 it... just got an X2 with the remote lever on my other bike... :crazy:
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Ahh yeah sort of makes sense. I had a chat with one of the suspension guys this arvo and he said that I could get away with a 200mmx51mm eyelet and they would be able to use spacers to get it back to a 197mmx48mm. How that translates to a lower BB and slacker HA, I'm not too sure. i think the BB is a tad higher than stock already as I went with a 130mm fork up front (they come stock with 110mm).

Yeah X2 it... just got an X2 with the remote lever on my other bike... :crazy:
From what I've gathered, changing the eye to eye length is really difficult. Especially compared to just shimming the shock to change where it bottoms out in it's stroke. Best bet to "reduce" eye to eye length is using offset bushing on the mounting points, it varies from frame to frame and the mounting hardware (larger bolt diameters have less room to play with), but you can usually get 1-2mm shorter with offset bushings. Mint355 is a great one to talk to about that, he got offset bushings for the top mount on his Camber (which is for sale at the moment, SHAMELESS PLUG!!!!) to help get the geometry he wanted on it.

Hey Zaf, great thread.

What width was the rim on which you preferred the minion Ss?
The Roval Traverse SL's with a 22mm internal ID give a great profile. That said, the EX1501's on the Canyon also have a fantastic profile with that tyre, and they run 25mm internal diameter. The Light bicycles 31.6 internal squares it off to a point where I suspect the side lugs were dragging a bit, which offsets the advantage of the tread pattern somewhat, also likely why I found the raised center tread on a DHR ro roll better using that wheelset.
 

Yeti Dan

Likes Dirt
Yeah, I was having a chat with Mint yesterday via PM about it actually, although he is using the stock shock which has been modified with a tune and EVOL. I'll have to do more research on how to get onto the DPS platform..
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
So just completed another wheel build for the Stumpy. DT Swiss 350's to EX471's with Competition DB spokes and their alu squarx head nipples (which are a JOY to work with, the wrench is amazingly simple).
Anyone, got out on a ride with them today and they feel pretty great! The colour scheme is also perfect match for the Stumpy. Not the lightest of wheels, the full build with rim tape coming in at about 1900g, but you can feel the strudiness in the construction of the rims. I've been off the bike for a little while with a virus. as well as putting a DHR on the rear, so they seemingly roll a little slower, but I'll see once some fitness is back and if I put a lighter trail tyre on the rear before concluding that (it was also stinking hot and humid today). The 25mm internal gives a lovely profile and stability to the casing.

I'm enjoying the wheel building, the stand and tension meter have kind of paid for themselves at this point. The parts all up on this build came in at almost exactly $500AUD and a few hours work.


 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Okay, so the bike has undergone some big changes of late and it has largely transformed it into a completely different beast. LOTS of text warning, this is going to be a fairly detailed rundown of the changes and effects it's had on the bike.

Current setup:
Stumpjumper FSR 29er S-works 2016
Fox Float 36
Cane Creek Double Barrel Coil
Chromag BZA Carbon Bars
Charge Saddle
ODI Grips
Shimano XTR trail brakes
Shimano XTR Drivetrain
S-Works Cranks
Specialized Command Post IR
DT Swiss EX471/350 wheels
Maxxis Tires
Bikeyoke shock mount



Rider
189cm / 6'2"
92kg / 200lbs suited up
Riding style - Drive from the center of the bike, tree trunk legs that like to drop watt bombs, try to be smooth
Frame size - Large
Tyres - Minion DHF 3C EXO 2.5 / Minion DHR 2.3 3C EXO
Tyre Pressures - 25PSI front / 28PSI Rear

Suspension
  • Travel 150mm/140mm
  • Pressures 82PSI / 550lbs
  • Damper settings: 10 clicks HSC, 8 Clicks LSC, 8 Clicks out Rebound
  • Rear: 2.75 turns HSC, 1.5 turns HSR, 12 clicks LSC, 18 clicks LSR
  • Volume adjust: 2x front / Standard bumper rear

Cockpit
Handlebars
  • Bar Height - Zero stacked headset (proper flat!!)15mm Spacers, 30mm rise
  • Roll - Neutral, marker lines match up with stem clamp line
  • Bar Width - 800mm
  • Stem Length - 50mm
Saddle
  • Saddle Position - Mid to slid forward on rail (Command post has offset rearward)
  • Tilt - Flat to slightly forward when not sagged
Brakes
  • Lever position - flatter and raised, reach extended to first knuckle line of index finger
  • Lever throw - 5mm longer throw on the rear but general fast engagement on both, stopping 10mm before the bar
  • Rotor size - 203mm front / 180mm rear
  • Chainring/Cranks - 32t Garbaruk Oval ring with 175mm arms. Clearance to stays limits anything larger.

Custom stuff
The clear standout is the Bikeyoke link to mount shocks with a standard eyelet. Enduro Guard for the forks, mainly to protect operating surfaces against rock strike damage, same goes for the AMS frame guards. An thin layer of foam and then electrical tape has been used on the driveside seat stay, as well as placed under the chainstay guard for further noise dampening. Shovel carbon chainguide keeps everything where it should be. SWAT Box stashes a spare tube, 2xC02 cannisters, 60mL Stans sealant, spare derailleur hanger whilst the frame has the SWAT EMT mount above the shock and a chainbreaker in the steerer tube.




Ride report

The Fox 36 was upgraded onto the bike around mid Feb, although the Bikeyoke and Cane Creek shock were bought at the same time, AusPost losing my item and then waiting for an investigation to run its course and insurance costs to be re-imbursed to BikeYoke delayed the replacement coming. That said, dealing with Bikeyoke was beyond amazing, Sacki is a great guy and was prioritising me as a customer at every step of the way; can only recommend them for anyone purchasing their products because of it. The Yoke itself is beautifully engineered and very simple in installation as well.
The 36's made a BIG change to the bike, they do sit high, so even though it's only a slight increase in axle to crown between them and the Pikes they replaced, the bike feels a little more raked out. I generally don't hang off the back of my bike, I do drive in from the center of it, the line point on the bike with the extra travel up front was noticeable, and it definitely likes being ridden that way.

I've only had a little bit of a ride with the CCDB Coil installed, but it's been quite a profound change as well. The pedalling performance on it is amazing, even with what i'd consider to be a lower spring pressure than I feel is ideal (looking at sourcing a 600lbs spring). There was no noticeable bob even with out of the saddle efforts, but extremely supple; the traction delivery is astounding. On climbs the square edges just disappear underneath it; there's is noticeably less hangup in speed as it hits them and allows the wheel to just roll up and over it, and on the downs, the tyre makes an extremely satisfying single "thud" as it just rolls and sticks to the terrain. I didn't hear it skip at all tonight, which is noteworthy because of how skatey and loose the terrain generally is out here, it just plants in and follows the terrain.
There is also a nice level of feedback from the rear, you can notice the bumps as the wheel hits them, but you don't feel the impact of them. This level of conformity to the terrain makes the entire bike hold speed better in the chundery terrain. I am mostly happy with the tune on the shock, it was extremely controlled and supple, there were also no harsh bottom outs.
My only complaint so far is that it lost a bit of liveliness when pushing into a G-out or pump dip. There were two little run ins to a little g-out/kicker on my loop tonight, and both lacked that "boost out" effect you usually feel from a nice big compression. It may be the shock simply needs a more exaggerated input to get the desired effect, but tonight it really didn't want to lose contact with the ground. I'm hoping a higher spring rate may also return a little bit of this behaviour, hopefully not at any cost to the increased traction and suppleness from the lighter spring.

Also, do note that the bike still has a rather high leverage ratio, even with the longer stroke and the new linkage, which is why the rear spring pressures are so high. When you have have to achieve 140mm of travel off just 50mm of shaft it can't be avoided.

I'll ride the bike a bit more and play around with the rear shock a bit over the coming months, but initial impressions are extremely positive.

Future upgrades
I might as well mention here. I'm probably planning to get a Bikeyoke Revive 160mm dropper in the near future (my only concern being that without the offset that the Specialized Command Post has I may not find my ideal cockpit position), and there is a plan to replace the S-works cranks with a praxis PF30 conversion kit and mount some XTR 175mm cranks there instead.
 

Bretto172

Likes Dirt
Thumbs Up

Nek Minnit - Nek Level.. most custom stumpy I've seen this side of Graves factory setups! Good job mate, always a good read! Very very nice build.
 
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