Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

[pink poodle]

Incorrect

Lone Wolf's

Lone wolves is an internal inconsistency, lone wolf's implies multiple singular actors



Bring it on pedants.....

An English teacher will be here momentarily to beat me with a Rogets

no.

The lone wolf's gun jammed.

They were lone wolves because they could not work together.

You's lot need gooder skillz.

 

[redbruce]

Firstly we need to stop the default position that all Muslims are terrorists. Mo one is saying that. What we are saying is the religion's seriously high correlation with terrorist incidents. Do you not think this minority is over represented in French attacks?

1st sentence. yep. Second one, you mean like Christians in the Crusade.

3rd one, pick a point in history and cause and effect remains the same, just the players vary.

 

[rednightmare]

This is a pretty good take on the left and its stance on Islamists.

It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.
It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:
"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
"No you didn't."
"Wait, what? Yes we did..."
"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."
"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."
"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."
"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."
"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."
"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"
"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."
"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."
"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."
"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"

 

[redbruce]

I'm wonder if Martin Bryant had commited his killing spree now if ISIS, or whatever they are called, would have claimed his slaughtering rampage as their own orchestration? Me thinks not.

Would only be because he looks so overtly Caucasian.

Hitler on the other hand??

 

[Calvin27]

We also need to stop mentioning crusades. Christianity has changed a lot since then. How much has Islam changed? Zero in the middle east. And that is the problem.

 

[Knuckles]

This is a pretty good take on the left and its stance on Islam.

Not particularly, David Berkowitz claimed his neighbour ordered him to kill by getting his dog to pass the commands on to him......Moses dragged an entire race around an inhospitable desert because a bush told him to.

There are motivations and there are excuses, and when they're applied to acts of violence, they rarely correlate.

 

[pink poodle]

We also need to stop mentioning crusades. Christianity has changed a lot since then. How much has Islam changed? Zero in the middle east. And that is the problem.

Ummm...



Really?


Have you forgotten that George W. declared that gulf war 2 was a holy crusade?

Who mentioned Hitler? I think you could see some interesting correlations between ww2 and the current scenario. Foreign meddlers in civil wars (like in Spain), mass ethnic cleansing (the Jews etc), lots of foreign involvement on the ground...

 

[Knuckles]

We also need to stop mentioning crusades. Christianity has changed a lot since then. How much has Islam changed? Zero in the middle east. And that is the problem.

I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong.

Tell the victims of abortion clinic bombings that.

Both have changed, however, like any group there are extremist fringe elements who are willing to commit atrocities in the name of their particular skewed beliefs.

There are also extremist animal rights, enviromentalist, political, race, et al, groups who are not adverse to getting their hands bloody.

Hell, the French foreign legion is a mercenary terrorist organisation, employed by the French government to commit similar atrocities as we are currently seeing. One difference is, they are better trained, equipped, and have an exit strategy.

 

[redbruce]

We also need to stop mentioning crusades. Christianity has changed a lot since then. How much has Islam changed? Zero in the middle east. And that is the problem.

Sure about that?

http://arena.org.au/the-cultural-contradictions-of-christian-fundamentalism/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/octoberweb-only/143-52.0.html

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

Certainly alive and well and influential in American politics (and intrinsic to the our Liberal's Taliban/Uglies faction: https://newmatilda.com/2011/03/18/when-uglies-turned-taliban/).

While there are more Christians in the world than Muslims, there are inherent distribution, social and economic demographic differences that are at least equally important in the equation.

History is the lesson only the ignorant choose to dismiss. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," warned philosopher George Santayana.


However, more salient (indeed relevant) to the fundamental issue (in my view):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong.

Tell the victims of abortion clinic bombings that.

Both have changed, however, like any group there are extremist fringe elements who are willing to commit atrocities in the name of their particular skewed beliefs.

There are also extremist animal rights, enviromentalist, political, race, et al, groups who are not adverse to getting their hands bloody.

Hell, the French foreign legion is a mercenary terrorist organisation, employed by the French government to commit similar atrocities as we are currently seeing. One difference is, they are better trained, equipped, and have an exit strategy.

What he said.

EDIT: spelling, bloody spelling.

 

[Boom King]

like any group there are extremist fringe elements who are willing to commit atrocities in the name of their particular skewed beliefs.

Stone the 29" riders I say.......

 

[Knuckles]

Stone the 29" riders I say.......

Well there's extremism and then there's common sense.

 

[rednightmare]

I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong.

Tell the victims of abortion clinic bombings that.

Both have changed, however, like any group there are extremist fringe elements who are willing to commit atrocities in the name of their particular skewed beliefs.

There are also extremist animal rights, enviromentalist, political, race, et al, groups who are not adverse to getting their hands bloody.

Hell, the French foreign legion is a mercenary terrorist organisation, employed by the French government to commit similar atrocities as we are currently seeing. One difference is, they are better trained, equipped, and have an exit strategy.

The Tu Quoque Argument:

Tu Quoque is a Latin term, and in English it means “you as well.” It is a subset of ad hominem in which one attempts to justify wrong doing by arguing that one’s opponent commits the same, that one’s opponent is no better. This is a way of cheaply dismissing an argument without actually addressing it, as per a normal ad hominem, by attacking the one argued with rather than the argument.

 

[pink poodle]

Funny about that, eh?


Those folks victim blaming and blaming our societies and claiming folks are radicalised because of racism and marginalisation - including apparently the most senior mufti here - WHERE are the aboriginal terrorists? WHERE are the Indian and Pakistani terrorists here? WHERE are the Italian, Greek, Vietnamese, Chinese, et al terrorists? All have been and / or continue to be victims of racism and marginalisation.


The common denominator is....drumroll....Islam.

Sarin gas? It will keep the crowds off your public transport.

Not to mention, the most prolific terrorist was an Argentinian, and Guy Fawkes is celebrated as a folk hero with his own public holiday.

You leave Maradona and the hand of God out of this!!!

 

[redbruce]

The Tu Quoque Argument:

Tu Quoque is a Latin term, and in English it means “you as well.” It is a subset of ad hominem in which one attempts to justify wrong doing by arguing that one’s opponent commits the same, that one’s opponent is no better. This is a way of cheaply dismissing an argument without actually addressing it, as per a normal ad hominem, by attacking the one argued with rather than the argument.

Interesting proposition. You sound like you have debating (analytical) experience. so you would know hypocrisy is the core tenant of Tu Quoque.

Please point out the hypocritical aspect, as opposed to Knuckles providing historical context, by examples, regarding the merit of the statement "forget the Crusades" (perhaps also Tu Quoque then) by young Calvin.

 

[johnny]

Funny about that, eh?


Those folks victim blaming and blaming our societies and claiming folks are radicalised because of racism and marginalisation - including apparently the most senior mufti here - WHERE are the aboriginal terrorists? WHERE are the Indian and Pakistani terrorists here? WHERE are the Italian, Greek, Vietnamese, Chinese, et al terrorists? All have been and / or continue to be victims of racism and marginalisation.


The common denominator is....drumroll....Islam.

Whilst I agree that the marginalisation argument might get more play that it should, you really need to do your homework a bit better before you start throwing common denominators around like that.

Nationalist terror attack - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Yugoslav_General_Trade_and_Tourist_Agency_bombing
Hilton bombing, blamed on Ananda Marga, not Muslims - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Hilton_Hotel_bombing
Armenian Nationalists - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Commandos_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
White supremacists - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Commandos_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
Armenian nationalists, again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Turkish_consulate_bombing
Anti-nuclear activists - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_bombing_of_the_French_Consulate_in_Perth,_Western_Australia
Anit-abortionists - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_James_Knight


None of these were motivated by Muslim extremists. That's not to say that there hasn't been Muslim terrorism in Australia, there definitely has.

It's just to say that claiming Islam is the common denominator in terrorism in Australia, or anywhere else is.......drumroll....... crap.

 

[Calvin27]

Please point out the hypocritical aspect, as opposed to Knuckles providing historical context by examples, regarding the merit of the statement "forget the Crusades" (perhaps also Tu Quoque then) by young Calvin.

The forget the crusades was an attempt to stop the derailment of the actual thing we are talking about. Paris under attack from terrorist. Here and now. We could go on and on about retribution but look at the 21st century attacks on France and tell me that this is not an over representation of Islamic terrorism.

Here it is again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

 

[redbruce]

The forget the crusades was an attempt to stop the derailment of the actual thing we are talking about. Paris under attack from terrorist. Here and now. We could go on and on about retribution but look at the 21st century attacks on France and tell me that this is not an over representation of Islamic terrorism.

Here it is again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

There is something you are not getting about my deliberate (illustrative but certainly not definitive) historical reference, (relative) perspective is the thing.

http://www.differentspirit.org/resources/crusades.php

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...voked-the-crusades-in-re-islam-and-terrorism/

Islam represents 5 - 10% of the population in France. In Australia it's about 2 and a bit %.

Does that mean there is a threshold beyond which terrorism is inevitable?

Well, given the projected rate of growth of Islam worldwide, then the chicken littles (at least we are only 4th worst: http://www.theguardian.com/australi...6/25/whats-fastest-growing-religion-australia

The rest of us will just have to work through the issues then.

 

[pink poodle]

The forget the crusades was an attempt to stop the derailment of the actual thing we are talking about. Paris under attack from terrorist. Here and now. We could go on and on about retribution but look at the 21st century attacks on France and tell me that this is not an over representation of Islamic terrorism.

Here it is again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

But the French played such a strong role in the first 3 crusades. They were most hasty to take up the cross.

 

[Knuckles]

The forget the crusades was an attempt to stop the derailment of the actual thing we are talking about. Paris under attack from terrorist. Here and now. We could go on and on about retribution but look at the 21st century attacks on France and tell me that this is not an over representation of Islamic terrorism.

Here it is again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

It's not an over representation of Islamic terrorism. True, the casualties are higher I the last couple of attacks, but of the 30 attacks since 1985, 11 are directly attributed to Islamic Jihad, and I e of those, the assailant denies it was terrorism and claims it was simply a failed robbery attempt. And another was more a carjacking than a terror attack. So a generous 10.

After this and the Australian wiki link, I'm beginning to think you're not actually reading them, or, how'd you put it, cherry picking?


Edit: you do realise Wikipedia is crowd sourced? It's hardly the definitive geopolitical Bible.

 

[pink poodle]

It's not an over representation of Islamic terrorism. True, the casualties are higher I the last couple of attacks, but of the 30 attacks since 1985, 11 are directly attributed to Islamic Jihad, and I e of those, the assailant denies it was terrorism and claims it was simply a failed robbery attempt. And another was more a carjacking than a terror attack. So a generous 10.

After this and the Australian wiki link, I'm beginning to think you're not actually reading them, or, how'd you put it, cherry picking?

The wolfs is amungst the chickens's