Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

I accept that demonising Islam is no strategic solution, but to intellectualise about the (almost endemic) violence requires leaving all doors open.

It's a religion from another time (this it has in common with most others), a time of slavery, abuse, no valuing of women apart from being objects of ownership to men. Anyone can come up with hundreds of grotesquely violent unforgiving quotes from the Quran that border on sadism, as they can with the Old Testament .

All this wouldn't matter if it were seen in its historical context, ie as different and less enlightened than today. Yet, that is not what we see, because fundamentally Islam is a fundamentalist religion and it sees the past as enlightened and the Quran as without error.

It's so easy to say that xyz sadistic action is just a regional/cultural/tribal thing, it's even easier to see the commonality that goes across those different cultural/tribal groups - and it ain't a love of all fellow human beings.
Sounds like it has found the right place in time...more slavery now than any other time on history. Women (as just shown) valued pretty low, even here still lower than men in workplace statistics on wages and career path. And let's not overlook our own terrible record on domestic violence...isn't Australia one of the most godless (according to our census) nations around? People remain the problem. I think we need more dogs and less people.
 

Mattydv

Likes Bikes and Dirt
...isn't Australia one of the most godless (according to our census) nations around? People remain the problem. I think we need more dogs and less people.
...and this is the issue that most people are overlooking. Many of these problems aren't 'islamic problems', they're geographical.

The female genital mutilation you see in Africa, the institutionalised abuse you see in the Middle East (etc. etc.) are all problems that are often chalked up to being of islamic origin, but in fact are simply issues that the region typically tolerates as a society.
 
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pharmaboy

Eats Squid
...and this is the issue that most people are overlooking. Many of these problems aren't 'islamic problems', they're geographical.

The female genital mutilation you see in Africa, the institutionalised abuse you see in the Middle East (etc. etc.) are all problems that are often chalked up to being of islamic origin, but in fact are simply issues that the region typically tolerates as a society.
What about beheading of infidels, driving car bombs into market places, killing as many gays as you can with an automatic weapon, driving a bus into innocent people having a celebration?

These things seem to transcend regions, but also seem to have some commonality?

Just because everything is blamed on Islamism, doesn't mean some of it isn't the case
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Sounds like it has found the right place in time...more slavery now than any other time on history. Women (as just shown) valued pretty low, even here still lower than men in workplace statistics on wages and career path. And let's not overlook our own terrible record on domestic violence...isn't Australia one of the most godless (according to our census) nations around? People remain the problem. I think we need more dogs and less people.
Are you equating the average female FTE's with wives walking 2 paces behind their men, wives unable to leave the house without a man, not able to drive, not able to show their face?

People indeed do remain the problem, your thoughts, beliefs, societal norms seem to impact how you see others, accept violence and devalue other human beings though.

Media outlets do report on Indian caste system honour killings as much as they do Pakistani ones.

I do find it interesting that Monis himself said it was an Islamicist act. I've already read a couple of articles somehow de linking Islamicism from Omar Mateen, from he's a drug addict and a closet homosexual - if someone says they are killing you in the name of God, why the fuck wouldn't we believe that that's their motivation?
 

Skydome

What's invisible and smells like hay?
I think if some people believe their religion is worth killing over, they should start with themselves.
 

Mattydv

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What about beheading of infidels, driving car bombs into market places, killing as many gays as you can with an automatic weapon, driving a bus into innocent people having a celebration?

These things seem to transcend regions, but also seem to have some commonality?

Just because everything is blamed on Islamism, doesn't mean some of it isn't the case
It can't be denied that Wahabism is being used as a vehicle for radicalisation, but it's hardly the cause of such. The causes for radicalisation have been well researched, documented, and even discussed earlier in this thread.
The social/political/strategic climate around many areas of the world, but especially the Middle East, is such that it's easy for many people to be radicalised. For these same reasons there are many dysfunctional individuals in largely cohesive societies which are prime targets for the reception of such extremist messages.

The problem with the approach of treating the vehicle for radicalisation is that you're ignoring the core problem, and as Johnny has said earlier, the outcome of this is simply exacerbating the problem.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
......., because fundamentally Islam is a fundamentalist religion and it sees the past as enlightened and the Quran as without error.
Sorry, but that's just not correct.

Wahabists read the Quran and wish to see it implemented word-for-word without any interpretation. Salafists, generally speaking wish to see society run in the same nature and character as it was in the time of Muhammad. They are both Sunnis and even within them there are different views on the importance and implications of the Hadith as opposed to Quranic verse. These guys are Sunnis, then you have the Shi'ites, who have followed a completely stream of Islam since the death of Muhammad and have hugely different traditions and views. Then you've got the Sufis who are mystics and most wouldn't even visually recognise them as Islamic. You also have Ahmadiyah, who are altogether different again. Even within Sunnism and within countries you have great differences. In Indonesia you have two different Sunni organisations, Muhammadiya and Nahdlatul Ulama. The former (whilst called modernists) have a much more conservative and traditional view of Islam but do not advocate for an Islamic state or Sharia law. NU are much more moderate, their Imams often drink and don't care about eating pork or not because they see their religion as spiritual and based in interaction, not on superficial issues such as how people eat.

That's just a tiny scratch with large generalisations within as well. However it shows the differences are huge and fundamentalism is not at all present in all aspects. They don't even fully agree on what all the fundamental issues are in Islam and which are the parts that require equal focus! You go to Iran or Turkey and try telling a young multilingual woman with a masters degree in psychology that she's a fundamentalist and that her education and freedom would be better tossed aside for the constraints of a millennia back. I'm tipping you'd be in for a robust discussion on the complexities of Islam and the dangers of ignorance.


What about beheading of infidels, driving car bombs into market places, killing as many gays as you can with an automatic weapon, driving a bus into innocent people having a celebration?

These things seem to transcend regions, but also seem to have some commonality?

Just because everything is blamed on Islamism, doesn't mean some of it isn't the case
Yes and no, though. Sure, Islam has some dumbarse crap in it, as do most religions as you've alluded to. However it's up to the person to take up any issue they choose, they are not involuntarily directed to action, it is their hand that holds the gun/trigger device/steering wheel. The book doesn't drive a truck and people have choice, it is them that take action, not the religion and it is them that are responsible for their actions.

If it were Islam, or parts of it that are responsible for atrocities then you'd expect to see each and every Muslim carrying out similar acts or at least supporting them. But we do not and that would suggest that individual choice is the independent variable here and Islam/violence as the dependent variables.


I do find it interesting that Monis himself said it was an Islamicist act. I've already read a couple of articles somehow de linking Islamicism from Omar Mateen, from he's a drug addict and a closet homosexual - if someone says they are killing you in the name of God, why the fuck wouldn't we believe that that's their motivation?
It is important though. This dude who drove the truck through the crowd, I'm hearing that he never went to Mosque, made no claims of loyalty to IS/AQ, has not been found to have acted with others, not found to have any radical material, etc. etc. Should this end up being the case, why would we believe that it is an IS/AQ inspired act? Just because of his name? That's not enough. We can suggest and suspect, and we should. However in the view of accurately understanding what has occurred assumptions with zero evidence to support them are pointless and dangerous.

With Man Monis, his actions achieved everything that an IS attack would regardless of his behaviour. So, in that respect, it's a terror attack because that's the way it all panned out. However, his path that led to him carrying out the attack will be totally and utterly different than the path that led the Charlie Hebdo attacks or the Tunisian beach massacre. And if you're going to have strong opinions on these matters and say that some views are incorrect then you have to pay close attention to these details as well as they are intrinsic to the issue.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Johnny, I'm not using fundamentalism in the militant sense, but in the religious sense. My understanding is the most common defineiTion of what it is to be Muslim is the six articles of faith. In those articles is the section about the Quran being a revelation of the word of Allah, and more specifically it is unadorned with human error unlike the Torah and bible (though I think this last bit is inferred only)

It doesn't follow that 100% of the religions adherents are therefore fundamental - is it a good sized majority though?

Now ask the educated Muslim woman your example, is the Quran revelations from God? Now see how the answer goes.

Once you have taken that step, it requires significant mental gymnastics to justify and reject some parts while taking advice from the other parts without breaking the connection with the revelation and perfection of the Quran .
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Johnny, I'm not using fundamentalism in the militant sense, but in the religious sense. My understanding is the most common defineiTion of what it is to be Muslim is the six articles of faith. In those articles is the section about the Quran being a revelation of the word of Allah, and more specifically it is unadorned with human error unlike the Torah and bible (though I think this last bit is inferred only)

It doesn't follow that 100% of the religions adherents are therefore fundamental - is it a good sized majority though?

Now ask the educated Muslim woman your example, is the Quran revelations from God? Now see how the answer goes.

Once you have taken that step, it requires significant mental gymnastics to justify and reject some parts while taking advice from the other parts without breaking the connection with the revelation and perfection of the Quran .
You're going to have to give your definition of fundamentalism in a religious sense then as that's what I thought I was getting at.

Is it a good sized majority? Dunno, that's getting into an area of research that I don't know has been carried out. What would be a representative sample group of a billion folk in every corner of the world?

Given the huge amount of humans who are religious and "people of the book" that absolutely do justify and reject some parts of their religion (some wear burqas, some wear the Chador, some don't veil up at all, some drink, some lend money with interest, etc. etc. Some commit adultery, some use deception, some steal, some use the Lord's name in vane, some work on the Sabbath, etc. etc.) I'd say it doesn't require such significant mental gymnastics or that religious people are significantly good mental gymnasts.

The bottom line is that there isn't even any real unified view and I don't think it's all as simple and clean cut as you're suggesting. I'm not an expert in the Quran or a theologian. But I have lived and worked in Islamic countries and I have looked pretty closely at modern terrorism and Mid East security and I've seem little to nothing that leads me to believe that fundamentalism is the standard for Muslims or that they view their faith the way you suggest. My experience leads me to believe that people are (often self servingly) flexible in the way they view and apply their religion and that there may be resentment towards the West from a considerable amount of people but random violence doesn't seem to have broad support and neither does Sharia law in Southeast Asian countries at least. That last point is a strong argument against fundamentalism in and of itself.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Are you equating the average female FTE's with wives walking 2 paces behind their men, wives unable to leave the house without a man, not able to drive, not able to show their face?
Yes...yes I am. It is on the same scale, perhaps a little more towards the positive end. I'm also including that 1 in 4 Australian women over 15 have been the victim of violence. Sexual assault figures are ridiculous as well.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
No idea of the credibility of this news source but it seems that a picture of radicalisation is beginning to surface. I find these kinds of things interesting. Man Monis was similar, clear mental problems, not a happy person, petty crime, etc. etc. and then BAM - they launch an attack an attack under the banner of radical Islam. It's almost as if they have no religious tendencies until they decide they want to carry out an attack and/or die. I wonder what comes first, the urge to lash out or the religiosity.

I also note that he was charged with a crime in March and possibly radicalised soon after that. I wonder if that was the life-changing event and/or perceived injustice that acted as a trigger of sorts.



Disturbing picture emerges of Nice killer

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2016/07/17/nice-terror-suspect/

5:53pm, Jul 17, 2016
Neil Frankland PM News Editor (EDM)

Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel was a handsome man with a violent temper and only a recent follower of radical Islam.
Bouhlel Nice

Bouhlel would 'stare at the children a lot'.

A disturbing picture is emerging of the Tunisian national killed by police after using a truck to killed 84 men, women and children during Bastille Day celebrations in Nice on Friday (AEST).

Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, 31, was getting divorced, had three children and lived in an ethnic working-class neighbourhood of the Mediterranean city.


The former deliveryman’s neighbours spoke of a sullen and angry man, prone to violent outbursts, who beat his wife and was recently convicted of a road rage attack on a fellow motorist.

While Bouhlel was not known to have any radical Islamic affiliations, he had a record of petty crime and mental instability.

Islamic State, nonetheless, is claiming responsibility for the truck attack.

“The person who carried out the operation in Nice to run down people was one of the soldiers of Islamic State,” the Amaq news agency affiliated with the militant Islamist group said on its Telegram account.

Bouhlel drove at the crowd in on Thursday night, zig-zagging along the seafront Promenade des Anglais for two kilometres as a fireworks display marking the French national day ended, until police eventually shot him dead.

Of the 84 who died, 10 were children. A reported total of 303 people were taken to hospital following the attack, the French health department said Saturday. Of those, 121 are still in hospital – 30 of whom are children – and 26 people are still in intensive care.
Transferred large sum of money

While initially described as a “lone wolf” attacker – not working under direction from any organisation – various media have reported Bouhlel sent his family in Tunisia the equivalent of $A150,000 in the days before the Nice atrocity.

“Mohamed sent the family 240,000 Tunisian Dinars ($A150,000) in the last few days,” his brother Jaber Bouhlel told the Daily Mail.

“He used to send us small sums of money regularly like most Tunisians working abroad. But then he sent us all that money, it was a fortune.

“He sent the money illegally. He gave cash to people he knew who were returning to our village and asked them to give it to the family.”


Recent radicalisation

French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve has said it is believed that Bouhlel’s transformation to radical Islam was a recent occurrence,

“It seems that he was radicalised very quickly,” Mr Cazeneuve told reporters.

“In any case, these are the elements that have come up from the testimony of the people around him.”

One neighbour of Bouhlel’s estranged wife added told reporters: “Mohamed only started visiting a mosque in April.”

Friends told police how Bouhlel had only grown a beard and expressed extremist views in recent weeks, authorities confirmed.

“They said he had started coming out with extremist statements and had suddenly developed an interest in radical Islam,” one official source was quoted as saying in The Sunday Telegraph.

But Bouhlel’s phone records showed he was in contact with known Islamic radicals.

Seven people believed to be linked to Bouhlel are reportedly in police custody, including his estranged wife.

Two arrests were made early Sunday, three were made on Saturday and two on Friday.


Psychological problems

Speaking from Bouhlel’s home town in Tunisia, his sister said he had been having psychological problems when he left for France in 2005.

Other relatives and friends interviewed in Nice doubted he had militant Islamist leanings.

Tunisian security sources say Bouhlel had last visited his hometown of Msaken four years ago.

He was not known by the Tunisian authorities to hold radical views, and had held a French residence permit for the past 10 years without obtaining French nationality.

Described by his neighbours as a handsome but frightening man, Bouhlel had just one criminal conviction: for road rage.

He was convicted for the first time in March this year, French Justice Minister Jean-Jacques Urvoas said.

“There was an altercation between him and another driver and he hurled a wooden pallet at the man,” Mr Urvoas said.

Since it was his first conviction, Bouhlel was given a suspended sentence and had to contact police once a week, which he did.

Neighbours in the residential neighbourhood in northern Nice where Bouhlel lived said he had a tense personality and did not mingle with others.

“I would say he was someone who was pleasing to women,” said neighbour Hanan.

“But he was frightening. He didn’t have a frightening face, but … a look. He would stare at the children a lot,” he added.

His home town Msaken is close to the coastal city of Sousse, where a gunman killed 38 people, mostly British holidaymakers, on a beach a year ago.

Many residents of the town have migrated to Nice, where the Tunisian community numbers about 130,000 people, according to Tunisian state news agency TAP.

Edwin Bakker, Professor at the Centre for Terrorism and Counterterrorism at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands, said Islamic State’s claim did not necessarily point to any formal link.

“Islamic State called for such (individual) attacks to be carried out back in 2014,” Prof Bakker said.

“They are also using the public perception that an attack like this seems to fit Islamic State.”

In Nice, where the holiday season would normally be in full swing, organisers of the annual jazz festival joined singer Rihanna in cancelling their event. A five-day annual festival that has run since 1948 had been due to start on Saturday.

Tearful well-wishers were still laying flowers, candles, teddy bears and drawings at a makeshift memorial on the Promenade des Anglais.

“Enough of the carnage. Stop the massacre,” read one sign.


Australians fortunate to escape death

Canberra’s ambassador in Paris, Stephen Brady, said five young Australians were injured in Thursday night’s attack.

“It’s the equivalent of driving at high speed on the promenade of Bondi Beach on New Year’s Eve,” the ambassador said.

Mr Brady said an Australian man and a woman, both in their early 20s, remained in hospital in satisfactory conditions and were “both doing OK”.

Another young woman was discharged from hospital earlier on Friday and two others suffered minor injuries.
nice attacks victims

The French Tricolour flies next to the Australian national flag on top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Photo: Getty

It was not clear exactly how the five, understood to be on a Topdeck tour, sustained their injuries as the attack unfolded and thousands of panicked revellers fled the danger.

“We were very lucky because a lot of Australians now use Nice as their point of entry into France,” Mr Brady said, noting that the death toll included three Germans, two Americans, a Swiss and a Russian.

He noted President Francois Hollande told the French people on Friday they could expect further terror attacks.

“The wantonness of it, the sheer evil has left the French public angry, a bit bewildered, but they have to take in their president’s real message and that’s that there will be other attacks.”

Next week at Fromelles and Pozieres in northern France many Australians are expected at the centenary commemorations of World War I battles in which thousands of Australians fought and died.

Mr Brady said that following the Nice attack, embassy staff had been in touch with French authorities regarding security at those events and “had been assured that the right resources required will be deployed”.

-with AAP
 

Mattydv

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Whilst not directly in the vein of terrorism, I'll be interested to see whether there are any constitutional or civil changes in Turkey resultant from this coup - especially given the conspiracist claims that it was feigned designed to consolidate governmental power.

I'm not one to jump on board conspiracies, but it does seem like the whole attempt was ill-designed at best.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Yes...yes I am. It is on the same scale, perhaps a little more towards the positive end. I'm also including that 1 in 4 Australian women over 15 have been the victim of violence. Sexual assault figures are ridiculous as well.
Gotta be careful with stats and what they actually mean pp. does that include being slapped on the bottom by your mum when you were a child? Being in a school yard bullying incident? What about males, would the average male have been the victim of violence to a higher or lesser degree?

"More than a million women had experienced physical or sexual assault by their male current or ex-partner since the age of 15 (some women may be counted twice if they experienced both physical and sexual assault). "

Source:
http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php

Then there is "assault" which is often used to increase the claim, but includes verbal assault, but the context is the receiver of the stat is they are thinking a woman with a black eye, being punched etc. the devil is in the detail and exactly what the questions that were asked and how they were asked, then reporting that detail with your stats.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Gotta be careful with stats and what they actually mean pp. does that include being slapped on the bottom by your mum when you were a child? Being in a school yard bullying incident? What about males, would the average male have been the victim of violence to a higher or lesser degree?

"More than a million women had experienced physical or sexual assault by their male current or ex-partner since the age of 15 (some women may be counted twice if they experienced both physical and sexual assault). "

Source:
http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php

Then there is "assault" which is often used to increase the claim, but includes verbal assault, but the context is the receiver of the stat is they are thinking a woman with a black eye, being punched etc. the devil is in the detail and exactly what the questions that were asked and how they were asked, then reporting that detail with your stats.
So you are a domestic violence apologist?
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
So you are a domestic violence apologist?
This was my first thought too...

Regardless of statistics, the simple fact is, any violence against anyone, for any reason is unacceptable. Debating semantics doesn't alter that in the slightest.

#hashtag
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Whilst not directly in the vein of terrorism, I'll be interested to see whether there are any constitutional or civil changes in Turkey resultant from this coup - especially given the conspiracist claims that it was feigned designed to consolidate governmental power.

I'm not one to jump on board conspiracies, but it does seem like the whole attempt was ill-designed at best.
Govt has surely stepped up to make the most of it according to the news - removed govt unfriendly judges, bring back death penalty etc etc. now starting to act just like the conspirators saw them.

There are dark sides to the Turkish govt IMO
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
So you are a domestic violence apologist?
Lol.

Rememember that old saying lies, damned lies and statistics. Only because people choose the statistics they want to overstate a case about, and the reader doesn't question the wording, because the wording is at least as important as the statistics themselves.

I am on the side of real victims - the more you include anything and everything into your definition, you devalue the victims of crime. We live in an era where we try to make as many people victims as possible
 
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