The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.

[Haakon]

http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/articl...nergy-portfolio-burning-environment-portfolio

 

[pink poodle]

Yes, it's reasonably well known. Estimates I saw were greater than the 10x quoted, and that was a few years ago. If you feel like a bit of chuck in your mouth google earth Collinsville Qld, or the hunter area in NSW. Back in the day 100m used to get you something, now it's a nice house in Sydney, but alas it won't rehab a mine site. Those voids will never be filled so don't bother stressing about it, it simply will not happen, they'll be repurposed. Down in the Hunter, there will probably be a great big visual bund so punters veering from one vineyard to the next won't notice it and ruin their day.

Much of the issues with rehab have been covered by Michael West http://www.michaelwest.com.au/half-a-dozen-ways-out-of-rehab-for-coal-companies/ FWIW #2 & #5 were (&prob still are) the most popular. Of the mines that I saw that were supposed to close, not a single one did and AFAIK none have yet, and they were supposed to close a LONG time ago. What do you know, the production curve just kept pushing out year after year, then what do you know, we need to put the mine on care and maintenance because there are reserves, but they just aren't economic to exploit right now so the mine will just take a little nap. Despite carrying provisions for the rehab work on the books, nobody wants to close these mines and commence formal rehabilitation of them.

You also might/might not be surprised how often the rehab work which has annual targets was dug up & destroyed (regardless of it's maturity) to chase more coal that had suddenly become economic to pursue again. So year on year, rehab #'s looked good/on track for that year, but net rehab for a site, let alone an expanding site could be total horsesh1t. Houses and holes gentlemen, that's all we're good for.

Could you perhaps be thinking of the giant fences that shield the moonscape from passing motorists? Very similar to the noise barriers you would see where housing is close to busy roads...What lies beyond is a disgrace. The last thing I saw about it all was that the giant holes might be turned into dams/lakes, and people can enjoy water sports on them.

 

[schred]

Similar things have been done OS, even converting them to productive areas like trout fishing etc, but as mentioned above the acid mine drainage (AMD) common to Aussie coal mines makes that unlikely. I'm of course speaking out of my ass as I'm not in this business, but I imagine a giant great pit (pits!) could be worth a great deal to anybody who had something, or a lot of things, to bury.

A visual bund can be anything, but typically for mines a giant berm of earth as theres plenty around, as tall as it needs to be to prevent people seeing whats behind. Cover it with weeds that stay knee length and people will fall in love with all the lovely rolling green hills.

 

[pharmaboy]

It's curious that a state that has the biggest freaking holes in the ground is also the one that charges $290 a tonne to put stuff in landfill.

Unbelievably, you can dump at private dumps that sort for recyclables by hand, then put the waste on a train to dump it in Queensland, and 30km up the road you have holes that desperately need filling in with something.

 

[John U]

Why do you think that is, possibly because the government issues large fines and the miners just go about their business of digging large holes again.

The fines aren't large enough, the rehab requirements are too low, or there's too many ways to avoid doing it.

It's curious that a state that has the biggest freaking holes in the ground is also the one that charges $290 a tonne to put stuff in landfill.

Unbelievably, you can dump at private dumps that sort for recyclables by hand, then put the waste on a train to dump it in Queensland, and 30km up the road you have holes that desperately need filling in with something.

And by charging those stupid prices they encourage some people to do the wrong thing, like dump it in the bush.

 

[pink poodle]

It's curious that a state that has the biggest freaking holes in the ground is also the one that charges $290 a tonne to put stuff in landfill.

Unbelievably, you can dump at private dumps that sort for recyclables by hand, then put the waste on a train to dump it in Queensland, and 30km up the road you have holes that desperately need filling in with something.

Fuck that's a lot of work! Why not just drop it on the side of the road? We have so much bush land around that is perfect...

 

[fimpBIKES]

Could you perhaps be thinking of the giant fences that shield the moonscape from passing motorists? Very similar to the noise barriers you would see where housing is close to busy roads...What lies beyond is a disgrace. The last thing I saw about it all was that the giant holes might be turned into dams/lakes, and people can enjoy water sports on them.

The company I work for leases the office buildings and workshop around a dis-used underground mine. The rent is cheap because if no-one is using it they have to close down properly, there is just a big ol' concrete slab over the mine shaft.
From what I understand mines can lay dormant like this indefinitely just in case it becomes financially viable to open the gates again.

I recall some years ago in the hills of Wollongong we were putting some equipment in for a mine that was reopening. Over the decade or so since they locked the gates the suburbs had crept up the hill and all of a sudden a bunch of poor bastards were living next door to very busy coalmine LOL


anyway, Pauline on QandA.... she hasnt changed a bit, still having no policies of her own and twisting peoples words into hate-speak :lalala:

 

[Flow-Rider]

The company I work for leases the office buildings and workshop around a dis-used underground mine. The rent is cheap because if no-one is using it they have to close down properly, there is just a big ol' concrete slab over the mine shaft.
From what I understand mines can lay dormant like this indefinitely just in case it becomes financially viable to open the gates again.

I recall some years ago in the hills of Wollongong we were putting some equipment in for a mine that was reopening. Over the decade or so since they locked the gates the suburbs had crept up the hill and all of a sudden a bunch of poor bastards were living next door to very busy coalmine LOL


anyway, Pauline on QandA.... she hasnt changed a bit, still having no policies of her own and twisting peoples words into hate-speak :lalala:

I've spent quite a number of years working in mines around Australia and the company I actually worked for, either helped restore them or construct new ones. I think a lot of the problems are from previous processes of the mining industry from yester year. You end up with large old tailing dams where you have soil that is contaminated to the point that there is very little you can do with it. As technology develops, processes of extracting precious metals have been refined and become more cost effective or the price of what every they are mining has increased so they will reinstate the mine. It then puts the onus on who ever refines the old tailings or mines to do the right thing.


During my travels of work sites, working long 12hr days for 4 weeks and having a mandatory 14th day off other than drinking beer there was bugger all to do. We had this day rostered in pairs with one other work colleague, so we would set out on some adventurous walks. On one of our outings we decided to enter an old abandoned disused mine site, this is where I truly seen the devastation to the natural habitat humans are capable of. I witnessed quite a large process water dam that was filled with bright red water, no life what so ever in it or around it and a few dead animals on the shoreline where they thought it would be great to try some of this red cocktail cordial looking water.

 

[schred]

Sounds like AMD. Not many talk about the perpetual water poisoning, the problem is bigger each year. Course it can be treated, but it's expensive and easier to stave off any action.

Check this, 3 ex-labor ministers intending to buy Rio's Blair Athol mine in central Qld for $1. It has rehabilitation expenses estimated between $150-300m, and $80m held by the Govt in financial assurance. Be nice to think they are doing it for any well intentioned reasons, but in all likelihood after they've milked it in all ways unholy that only ex-ministers can think of that the can will get kicked down the road to the next opportunist.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...ssive-queensland-coal-mine-for-dollar/7588916

 

[Flow-Rider]

Sounds like AMD. Not many talk about the perpetual water poisoning, the problem is bigger each year. Course it can be treated, but it's expensive and easier to stave off any action.

Check this, 3 ex-labor ministers intending to buy Rio's Blair Athol mine in central Qld for $1. It has rehabilitation expenses estimated between $150-300m, and $80m held by the Govt in financial assurance. Be nice to think they are doing it for any well intentioned reasons, but in all likelihood after they've milked it in all ways unholy that only ex-ministers can think of that the can will get kicked down the road to the next opportunist.

Yeah, not good to see or hear things like this.

The one I saw was out in the middle of the sticks in the Northern Territory. I did question one of the locals about it and their response was that the PH of the water was out. This caused a red algae to grow in it and that they were trying to evaporate all of the water away with the large surface area of the dam.

 

[scblack]

NBN is a Stupid idea. Stupid.

NBN is REALLY REALLY REALLY good - just ask Stephen Conroy. Fucken tool.

It is a f*cking ridiculously costly exercise, which many of us knew before Labor picked it up as a point of difference.

Hope all who wanted it in place are happy to be paying huge prices for internet in the future.






Here's the Financial Review article today:
Stephen Conroy's NBN puts red underpants on all our heads

Minister for Broadband Stephen Conroy and Prime Minister Kevin Rudd hold a press conference at Parliament House in Canberra in June 2010. Glen McCurtayne
by The Australian Financial Review

Who would have thought? It turns out that a massive government-run telecommunications monopoly that was built from scratch and which aims to push other competitors out of the market is very expensive. As things stand, the grand monument dreamt up by the Rudd government's telecommunications minister Stephen Conroy will leave Australia with close to the highest broadband prices in the developed world.
As our Chanticleer column reported yesterday, telco retailer TPG has downgraded its profit outlook to reflect a sharp hike in its access fees to the national broadband network. NBN charges, including a controversial charge based on increased movie streaming, are driving this increase. Under its business plan, the NBN has to recoup the costs of capital over time. So the $54 billion it will eventually cost to build will be passed on to retailers, whose profit margins will be squeezed, and eventually consumers who will have nowhere else to go.
By now, competition would force a normal business to write off a chunk of this as a bad investment. In February a PricewaterhouseCoopers report suggested the NBN was worth less than half of its construction cost. Well here's the rub, the previous Labor government kept the NBN off the budget books by arguing it would generate a quasi-commercial return. That allowed it to keep the project's early shortfalls from adding to the budget deficit. But writing down a massive amount of the value would expose the fantasy of the entire exercise.
So now we live in a crazy world where both sides of politics pretend that the NBN will generate a quasi-commercial return on equity while also providing its services at competitive prices. The government doesn't want a bigger deficit on its balance sheet, and Labor thinks the NBN is a great idea no matter the cost. So the NBN has to be allowed to do what monopolies naturally do: charge monopoly prices.


The NBN was of course, the brainchild of Senator Stephen Conroy, who suddenly quit the Senate last week. One of the lowest-quality federal ministers in Australian history, Senator Conroy claimed he had "unfettered legal power" to order Australian telcos to "wear red underpants on their head" if he so desired. He claimed the NBN would cut prices for consumers and futureproof access to the internet. Well, in a sense he has futureproofed the NBN, because it is illegal for anyone from Telstra to TPG to advertise other internet technologies as alternatives to the NBN.


The Turnbull government vows to crack down on businesses whose activities have the effect of diminishing competition. Yet it has inherited a government monopoly at the heart of the information economy whose business model is based on doing just that. Under Labor, Telstra struck a terrific deal for handing over key parts of its broadband infrastructure to the NBN. That windfall for Telstra shareholders loaded more monopoly costs into the NBN business model, which it now seeks to pass on to its captive customers. Turns out we're all wearing red underpants on our head thanks to Senator Conroy.


Read more: http://www.afr.com/opinion/editoria...n-all-our-heads-20160921-grkz3h#ixzz4Kw0mD0BJ
Follow us: @FinancialReview on Twitter | financialreview on Facebook

 

[Freediver]

Of course the Fin review is going to say that, it's been championing privatisation for ever. Ask anybody with half a clue about how the technology works and what it does and you will here how the Libs fucked it.

 

[oliosky]

Having recently connecting to the nbn with Tpg, it is both cheaper and faster than what was available previously. Really don't get the drama, it's faster, more capable and more future proof than the previous infrastructure.


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[floody]

It is a f*cking ridiculously costly exercise, which many of us knew before Labor picked it up as a point of difference.

So f*cking what.

Hope all who wanted it in place are happy to be paying huge prices for internet in the future.

As if the private sector would have delivered it at all, or cheaper.

 

[schred]

Could be nonsense but an engineer friend at Telstra was explaining to us that 5G will make NBN redundant in the near future.

 

[Calvin27]

Hope all who wanted it in place are happy to be paying huge prices for internet in the future.

NBN + netflix is still cheaper than ADSL + Foxtel. I'm just not happy the libs stuffed it so royally that I won't be getting it anytime soon and now every bulk news video on RB takes a while to load.

 

[scblack]

Having recently connecting to the nbn with Tpg, it is both cheaper and faster than what was available previously. Really don't get the drama, it's faster, more capable and more future proof than the previous infrastructure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then TPG is absorbing much higher costs to your connection.

And TPG share price went into free-fall the last couple of days due to the factors the Financial Review article is talking about.

The NBN access for TPG is MUCH higher than they had on their own networks (or whoever they were using) which means their profit margins on connections has fallen dramatically. TPG share price fell about 20% yesterday wiping approx. $3billion from the value of the company.

TPG is having to absorb the extra costs from NBN, as will all internet providers. This will mean less profits - and/or more expensive internet for consumers. Companies cannot long term absorb the costs, in time the internet for everyone will be more expensive. There is NO getting around that fact.

NBN is NOT a cost-effective product. It has had many laws changed to enable it to be the monopoly internet backbone. It was a dumb idea from the outset.

 

[Knuckles]

Could be nonsense but an engineer friend at Telstra was explaining to us that 5G will make NBN redundant in the near future.

Theoretically.

For high density areas.

Currently testing it at 1000x faster than 4G

But that's on top of the line gear, with zero usage. The realities are equipment, bandwidth usage, and most of all Telstra's well documented ineptitude at delivering basic services will all throttle that back to much lower performance.

#knuckleswasadrunkenchunt

 

[oliosky]

Then TPG is absorbing much higher costs to your connection.

And TPG share price went into free-fall the last couple of days due to the factors the Financial Review article is talking about.

The NBN access for TPG is MUCH higher than they had on their own networks (or whoever they were using) which means their profit margins on connections has fallen dramatically. TPG share price fell about 20% yesterday wiping approx. $3billion from the value of the company.

TPG is having to absorb the extra costs from NBN, as will all internet providers. This will mean less profits - and/or more expensive internet for consumers. Companies cannot long term absorb the costs, in time the internet for everyone will be more expensive. There is NO getting around that fact.

NBN is NOT a cost-effective product. It has had many laws changed to enable it to be the monopoly internet backbone. It was a dumb idea from the outset.

We'll see I guess. All seems a bit like private sector/newscorp style hysteria to me. As if right now, I'm better off with a much better cheaper product


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[scblack]

So f*cking what.



As if the private sector would have delivered it at all, or cheaper.

You fail to understand everything has a price attached.

The government is pumping on current estimates about $60Billion for the NBN. Labor pretended it had a commercial business case, but it never was the case, NBN is NEVER going to be cost effective. Every Australian is paying that price. If you are happily prepared for ALL Australians to pay $60Billion for faster Netflix access that's just an indication of your priorities.

The NBN is only running now, due to law changes to make it the monopoly. ISP's are not legally permitted to advertise competing technologies. There are alternatives, but Labor needed to change laws for them to be blocked. Its easy to run an NBN if you block everything else.