The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[Fat_Ride]

Being that BB7 Rdier has been through the Balfa factory I would say that he has a bit of a better idea than most....
Dunk, Do you know the difference between a machine (in this sense) and a tool?? The frame builders use 'tools' such as oxy/mig welders, laser cutters, band saws, etc etc.... And the CNC Machine, being called the only 'machine' is meant as the only process not controlled by hand... Dunk, suggest a better way to do the job a CNC machine does, by hand!!! You might want to check what one is first???... and yes I know and have used one!! Doing industrial design at uni does serve a few purposes, not many, but a few!!

 

[Jordy]

my god look what i've started :?

what is the point in all this fighting about it when everyone has different opinions to what hand made is... personally i think its more that balfas are made with care, not just in some factory in taiwan and that in the end will make them last longer then most of the high production frames on the market

Balfas are sick bikes and if i had the money right now i would buy one (which i probably will do in the near future)

 

[Fat_Ride]

All i'm saying is there is an obvious difference between the claims that Balfa make compared to other mass produced bikes in terms of the judgement "handmade".
It's not that fucking hard to make the point but some people would prefer to fight on trying to justify that the Giants, Mongooses,Treks, etc etc are in the same class as RM's, Balfa's, or even Cannondales!!!

People don't just pay double the price for the frame because it looks better!!! That is also why a lot of Premium bike companies are offering lifetime warranties on their frames... because they trust that their workers are doing a damn fine job and they will stick behind them with full confidence!!!

 

[dunk]

I know what a CNC machine is, actually by definition a CNC Machine is also a tool. :lol:

I agree with 2_fast here, the emphasis shouldn't be made that it's "hand made", but made with more care, time, and more human control over the process. In the end we all hope that it provides more of a craftsmen style article than a cookie cutter bike.

 

[Ryan]

On the other hand, Giant frames, aswell as most other mass production bikes are moved from one machine to another by hand and this them gives them the right to call them 'handmade'!!

Exactly which machines are you talking about mate? With the exception of the Pacific/Merida/Specialised factory, all the frame shops in Taiwan still do everything by hand. Mitring, jigging, tacking, welding...the whole process is still done by real people, with their hands using hand tools. This isn't the car industry, no-one out there (bar the abforementioned factory) is making enough cash to set up fully automated production lines to build bike frames. Going on the attack against Socket when you obviously don't know the facts of what goes on is a little ill-advised.

 

[Fat_Ride]

ill-advised?????
I think all I said was that Socket was trying to cause more shit when we all know quite obviously what BB7 Rider was saying!!!! There is a difference between what Balfa produces and how they produce it to the 'mass produced' brands.

Lets all just settle on that and finish this pointless fucking argument!!!

If not, next frame you buy, without looking into production techniques, justify otherwise spending those extra 1000's of dollars on 'boutique' frames!!

 

[Ryan]

ill-advised?????
I think all I said was that Socket was trying to cause more shit when we all know quite obviously what BB7 Rider was saying!!!! There is a difference between what Balfa produces and how they produce it to the 'mass produced' brands.

So what are the 'differences'? The fact that Canadians do the work rather than Taiwanese? Woop-de-farkin-do! The welding that comes out of those factories in Taiwan is at the very least on a par with what small-volume builders can turn out.

If not, next frame you buy, without looking into production techniques, justify otherwise spending those extra 1000's of dollars on 'boutique' frames!!

I can't justify it, nor will I. Next frame I buy will most likely be another DMR, which will come from the same Taiwanese factory as Planet-X, Da-Bomb and who knows how many other hardtail frames...and I won't give a shit because I know the bike will be well built and will last me.

Sorry, the 'it's better quality work because there's fewer of them made' argument doesn't really hold water.

 

[bb7 rider]

the argument may not hold water but the result does i will put my minutemans welding against your dmr and then you can see why its better, seriously ryan lets put them together and see if your argument can be backed up by proof.

 

[bb7 rider]

also i think the fewer of them made argument does make sense as they are taking time to build it with quality not just pumping out a higher quota per day for another bag of rice

 

[DRUM]

slack

 

[Jordy]

the argument may not hold water but the result does i will put my minutemans welding against your dmr and then you can see why its better, seriously ryan lets put them together and see if your argument can be backed up by proof.

hahah thats a bit one sided... i wonder which would win :wink:

 

[S.]

ill-advised?????
I think all I said was that Socket was trying to cause more shit when we all know quite obviously what BB7 Rider was saying!!!! There is a difference between what Balfa produces and how they produce it to the 'mass produced' brands.

So what's the difference? You've posted a few times, and completely dodged the actual differences. Come on Einstein, you must be keeping something in reserve!

 

[S.]

also i think the fewer of them made argument does make sense as they are taking time to build it with quality not just pumping out a higher quota per day for another bag of rice

What you're assuming there, is that they have the same number of people working at each factory. Big assumption, hope you've got figures to back it up?

P.S. I'd have a BB7 if I could afford it, so don't think I'm just bagging them or their construction methods.

 

[Rik]

also i think the fewer of them made argument does make sense as they are taking time to build it with quality not just pumping out a higher quota per day for another bag of rice

So? You think that's really so?
What if old mate that's welding for a bag of rice slips up? Then who's going to feed his family? I think the demand for a Taiwanese welder to produce quality is pretty bloody high, especially since they've really improved their quality control over the years.

 

[roostn247]

Sounds Sweet

Been looking @ the balfas, they look like a sweet ride...

The only thing is that they look chunky as all Fark down near the rear shock & downtube...

Im goin to call the dude this week & line it up, thanks heaps all u guys!

Race Soon!

 

[Fat_Ride]

So what's the difference? You've posted a few times, and completely dodged the actual differences. Come on Einstein, you must be keeping something in reserve!

I don't think I've dodged the difference at all... I have said my piece and have opened up the opportunity for you to justify the price difference in frames and also the reason why things such as warranties, known breakages in some brands, materials, etc etc are so different??

Lets look at the number per capita of frames produced vs. frames failed ( breaking, bending, weld cracks, etc) and then justify that the taiwanese welder is doing as good a job as the canadians!!!

Lets also look at the number of Taiwanese workers who ride themselves per capita compared to the number of Canadians who ride and work in the industry!!! Do you think that by any chance that the Canadians who are building the bikes, through experience may know where the weak-spots tend to be and the stress points are too???

Socket, I actually dont know why you are fighting so hard to justify the quality of the taiwanese frames... it was only a few months ago you where kissing BB7 Riders arse tbecause you wanted a Balfa so badly!!!!

By the way: My last ride was a Giant, I am not saying that it was a bad bike at all, it infact was very very good for me, I can just accept, unlike others, that there are bikes better than mine that were built better than mine and with better processes and materials!! I would love to ride a Balfa or an RM, etc but I cannot justify within myself why I need to spend that extra money on the quality when at my level of riding, which again I can accet as being far from perfect, does not require that!!

 

[dunk]

Lets also look at the number of Taiwanese workers who ride themselves per capita compared to the number of Canadians who ride and work in the industry!!! Do you think that by any chance that the Canadians who are building the bikes, through experience may know where the weak-spots tend to be and the stress points are too???

I never knew being a bike rider made you a better welder of bike frames. I would have thought the engineers/designers would have already established weakspots and stresspoints would be and would have developed solutions to over come these problems. I pity the poor welder who has to solve these problems as well as weld the frames. I thought it was the job of an industrial designer.

 

[Fat_Ride]

Do you think that similarly to an industrial designer that rides would design a beter bike than a non-rider a person manufacturing (not just welding.. I don't know where I wrote that!!) would manufacture a beter bike than that of a person that doesn't ride!!

How much longer do we have to make this argument?? Why don't you Dunk, go an buy a Huffy, Learsport or similar frame and put an XTR groupset on it, as well as 888's, etc, etc???? According to you and all the rest on this thread the frames are built with the same craftmanship!!! They surely must stand up to the Balfa, RM's, Santa Cruz's, etc....

If you are happy and content with thinking that people are just blowing big bucks on custom frames for the fuck of it that is fine... Most people, those with half a damn brain can work out that in life the theory 'you get what you pay for' usually, not always, but mostly falls true.

 

[Fat_Ride]

And by the way, in reply to dunks last comment also... if you had any idea, that is what also makes the Balfas, etc more special and customised.
As BB7 Rider could also tell you, those designers at the Balfa factory are designing the bike up stairs and are then helping out downstairs to build the frames and prototypes with the men who are going to build the final product.

I'm sure you could always organise a factory tour with BB7 Rider.. I am living only 1 hour drive from Mongtreal at the moment and BB7 rider will be here with me in June for the Norbas so then would be a good time if you want to experience that!!

 

[dunk]

Now where getting somewhere, Balfa has a more hands on set up. The ability for the fabricators and the deisgners to sort out problems and solutions. But how is this going to change when they move into the RM factory? Will prices come down, or quality?