The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[and1]

ill tell u how they ride i own 1 and they ride farkin sic they r the go bike no problems with them buy 1 2 day

Umm.. what? Is it just me or is that fragmented sentence virtually impossible to understand? Perhaps some punctuation and grammar may help.

On another note, from what I have read on the bb7 they are very good, I have heard of rare cases in which the head tube has snapped clean off the rest of the frame, but that was from some crazy ass huck-to-flats.

If you can afford it then go for it.

 

[lotec]

i understood it fine, theres only ever been one snapped in australia, it was in a crash so not under warranty but the guys at balfa gave the guy a new frame anyway, which i think is really cool...

 

[and1]

I saw pics of a canadian dude's frame who claims to have hit a 40ft to flat and pulled the head tube clean off, but thats what you get for being nucking futs on a flat landing.

 

[lotec]

hit a 40ft to flat

see where he went wrong? :roll: i think most frames would have done that and certainly most im sorry if im wrong but most frames that are as light as a bb7 would have..... plus a bb7 is a race bike not a hucking bike, if he was planning to do that he should ahve bought something like a karpiel apocolypse.....

 

[and1]

hit a 40ft to flat

see where he went wrong? :roll: i think most frames would have done that and certainly most im sorry if im wrong but most frames that are as light as a bb7 would have..... plus a bb7 is a race bike not a hucking bike, if he was planning to do that he should ahve bought something like a karpiel apocolypse.....

True, I dont think many bikes if any are designed to take that much of an ass reaming.

 

[S.]

I don't think I've dodged the difference at all... I have said my piece and have opened up the opportunity for you to justify the price difference in frames and also the reason why things such as warranties, known breakages in some brands, materials, etc etc are so different??

Lets look at the number per capita of frames produced vs. frames failed ( breaking, bending, weld cracks, etc) and then justify that the taiwanese welder is doing as good a job as the canadians!!!

I'm not the one trying to justify the price differences, YOU are. As far as I can tell (only from in-depth conversations from an actual owner/designer :roll), everything made in Taiwan is going to be cheaper than building it in Canada/USA/wherever because labour rates are cheaper, startup costs for tooling are nearly eliminated, basically everything is ready to go and the designer is only paying a small surcharge over labour costs + material cost to get things made (and given that the labour is so cheap, it's VERY cheap).

Pull up some figures on breakage rates (as a percentage of bikes sold) and bikes welded per welder. Then I'll believe you.

Lets also look at the number of Taiwanese workers who ride themselves per capita compared to the number of Canadians who ride and work in the industry!!! Do you think that by any chance that the Canadians who are building the bikes, through experience may know where the weak-spots tend to be and the stress points are too???

The designers - that is, the people who actually decide what goes where - are still in Canada/USA/wherever (cept for full catalog frames, but even some of those are designed externally I believe), the factory builds whatever they're told to. A welder is still a welder, if they're told to weld here but not there, that's what they'll do, they don't have any say in the positioning of tubing etc.

Socket, I actually dont know why you are fighting so hard to justify the quality of the taiwanese frames... it was only a few months ago you where kissing BB7 Riders arse tbecause you wanted a Balfa so badly!!!!

By the way: My last ride was a Giant, I am not saying that it was a bad bike at all, it infact was very very good for me, I can just accept, unlike others, that there are bikes better than mine that were built better than mine and with better processes and materials!! I would love to ride a Balfa or an RM, etc but I cannot justify within myself why I need to spend that extra money on the quality when at my level of riding, which again I can accet as being far from perfect, does not require that!!

Point out where I said Balfa's construction methods are in ANY way bad, or that they sucked, or ANYTHING AT ALL negative about them. Go on! I'd still love a BB7, but because I like the geometry and the design, not because it's made in Canada. I'm pretty damn happy on my made-in-Taiwan, engineered-in-America Iron Horse at the moment, thanks.

I'd also love some low-production frame, because it's more exclusive than what I (and most people) can afford... but I can't honestly see any real benefit in the construction methods (wow, handmade!) to justify the fact that a lot of US/Canadian made frames cost double what I'd pay for an equivalent Taiwanese-manufactured one.

 

[S.]

Do you think that similarly to an industrial designer that rides would design a beter bike than a non-rider a person manufacturing (not just welding.. I don't know where I wrote that!!) would manufacture a beter bike than that of a person that doesn't ride!!

How much longer do we have to make this argument?? Why don't you Dunk, go an buy a Huffy, Learsport or similar frame and put an XTR groupset on it, as well as 888's, etc, etc???? According to you and all the rest on this thread the frames are built with the same craftmanship!!! They surely must stand up to the Balfa, RM's, Santa Cruz's, etc....

If you are happy and content with thinking that people are just blowing big bucks on custom frames for the fuck of it that is fine... Most people, those with half a damn brain can work out that in life the theory 'you get what you pay for' usually, not always, but mostly falls true.

Whether the manufacturer(s) ride *should* be irrelevant if their work is up to scratch (ie they can weld properly, press out monocoque properly, operate a CNC machine properly, set the jig up right, etc) because the designer is meant to take care of what's done where - the manufacturers just do what they're told.

Comparing a Huffy or Learsport to a proper DH bike is also pretty much irrelevant, because
a) they're designed for different purposes
b) they're designed SOLELY with cost in mind (ie every corner that can be cut, will be cut, until you've only got a circle)
c) they're not designed by engineers to perform - they're designed to be as cheap as possible to make

I also notice you're not comparing a Huffy or Learsport to other Taiwan-made frames like Norco, Banshee, Kona, Iron Horse, or Giant. Why is that? Because despite BEING MANUFACTURED IN THE SAME COUNTRY, they're vastly different bikes with vastly different designs, materials and purposes?

 

[MUNGUS]

i understood it fine, theres only ever been one snapped in australia, it was in a crash so not under warranty but the guys at balfa gave the guy a new frame anyway, which i think is really cool...

it didn't get snapped in a crash. it was my mates bike and he is just bloody rough on all the bikes he owns but the balfa didn't snap in a crash.

this thread has gotten way out of hand. don't you guys have better shit to do than write bullshit on the technicalitites of a handmade frame and wat is technically a tool or a machine. i reckon most ppl writing in this thread are tools.

 

[S.]

And by the way, in reply to dunks last comment also... if you had any idea, that is what also makes the Balfas, etc more special and customised.
As BB7 Rider could also tell you, those designers at the Balfa factory are designing the bike up stairs and are then helping out downstairs to build the frames and prototypes with the men who are going to build the final product.

Cool, it's not like any other designers fly to Taiwan to talk to the manufacturers in person, and help oversee the production of their products. I mean, it's not like I know for a fact that say, for example, the Iron Horse guys were over there recently. :roll:

 

[wombat]

I personally find this whole debate quite ironic, considering the apparent plans of Pro-cycle to close the Balfa factory and move production to their larger factories (no I don't know for sure, but it's been said on good authority).

If not, next frame you buy, without looking into production techniques, justify otherwise spending those extra 1000's of dollars on 'boutique' frames!!

"Image". You've mentioned you're an Industrial Designer so I'm going to assume that you would already be aware of the importance of image in this type of industry.
As for the workmanship argument, people who write off the Taiwanese shops are stupid, reminds me of the people who wouldn't believe that Japan could produce quality electrical goods; I mean who would buy a Japanese product these days? :roll:
I suggest you guys try searching the DM and NSMB forums for the write-ups on this very topic by Eric Fox of .243 racing. He explained in no uncertain terms why he chose to have his frames manufactured in Taiwan rather than on shore, and it wasn't just because of costs. The good welding shops in Taiwan are damn good, and will easily go head to head with those in other countries.
Having said that, there's good and there's bad everywhere; I know that there are a few flaws in the welds on my DMR frame, some excessive heat and a bit of pitting around the joins on some beads, but in reality it's far from enough to compromise the joint. I'll bet you can find flaws in the welds on some boutique frames too; if you try and tell me any person can lay a "perfect" weld day in day out, I'll laugh in your face.

If you want to ride something that is a work of art, then sure, pay the premium for a boutique frame, whether it be from a workshop in Canada, Germany or Asia; but as far as ride quality and durability goes, there's not a lot of real world difference; if a dodgy weld fails, you have every right to claim warranty, regardless of where's it from.

 

[Rik]

this thread has gotten way out of hand. don't you guys have better shit to do than write bullshit on the technicalitites of a handmade frame and wat is technically a tool or a machine. i reckon most ppl writing in this thread are tools.

These people that write bullshit on technicalities of bikes are the same sort of people that you can thank for the bikes you ride.
If we all just "shuddup about technical crap and ride" like so many people say, who is going to design your bikes? I reckon people that don't appreciate the technicalities of bikes (no need to understand, just appreciate it) are tools. So there.

 

[S.]

this thread has gotten way out of hand. don't you guys have better shit to do than write bullshit on the technicalitites of a handmade frame and wat is technically a tool or a machine. i reckon most ppl writing in this thread are tools.

Calm down, if you don't care then don't read it. It's not like we're wasting away YOUR time, is it.

 

[MUNGUS]

this thread has gotten way out of hand. don't you guys have better shit to do than write bullshit on the technicalitites of a handmade frame and wat is technically a tool or a machine. i reckon most ppl writing in this thread are tools.

These people that write bullshit on technicalities of bikes are the same sort of people that you can thank for the bikes you ride.
If we all just "shuddup about technical crap and ride" like so many people say, who is going to design your bikes? I reckon people that don't appreciate the technicalities of bikes (no need to understand, just appreciate it) are tools. So there.

nobody in this thread except bb7rider has been to the balfa factory and seen how things happen yet everybody can tell everybody else about how its made and all the technicalaties about it. I have no problem with ppl designiong bikes and i never said i did but ppl coming on here and telling everybody else about some taiwanese welder being careful with his welding so he gets his rice. i don't think anybody here has met that little taiwanese man yet everybody seems to know how frames are built in the factory and wat being handmade realy means and the difference between tools and machines and wat tools one factory uses compared to another. i just don't think many of the people talking in here would really know wat is going on in the factories. correct me if i'm wrong but thats how i see it.

also Socket it does waste some of my time cos this thread was about some dude buying a balfa. not about our little taiwanese mate and his rice. i'm even wasting my time writing all this

 

[S.]

this thread has gotten way out of hand. don't you guys have better shit to do than write bullshit on the technicalitites of a handmade frame and wat is technically a tool or a machine. i reckon most ppl writing in this thread are tools.

These people that write bullshit on technicalities of bikes are the same sort of people that you can thank for the bikes you ride.
If we all just "shuddup about technical crap and ride" like so many people say, who is going to design your bikes? I reckon people that don't appreciate the technicalities of bikes (no need to understand, just appreciate it) are tools. So there.

nobody in this thread except bb7rider has been to the balfa factory and seen how things happen yet everybody can tell everybody else about how its made and all the technicalaties about it. I have no problem with ppl designiong bikes and i never said i did but ppl coming on here and telling everybody else about some taiwanese welder being careful with his welding so he gets his rice. i don't think anybody here has met that little taiwanese man yet everybody seems to know how frames are built in the factory and wat being handmade realy means and the difference between tools and machines and wat tools one factory uses compared to another. i just don't think many of the people talking in here would really know wat is going on in the factories. correct me if i'm wrong but thats how i see it.

also Socket it does waste some of my time cos this thread was about some dude buying a balfa. not about our little taiwanese mate and his rice. i'm even wasting my time writing all this

The funny thing is, that he hasn't even managed to disprove ANYTHING we've said. And you act like he's the only person who's ever said anything to anyone about what he's seen in factories.

It only wastes your time because you CHOOSE to read it. That's your fault, not mine. We're not forcing you to read it or respond.

 

[wombat]

i'm even wasting my time writing all this

Well that's your choice. As for what you're saying about experience, that's valid, but I'm basing my claims on what I've been told by someone who has had personal contact with the factories, I don't see why I should value BB7rider's input any more or any less (no offence here mate, I believe you, just debating on principle).

But still, your comments wreak of "geek bashing" a typical trait of the intellectually challenged.

 

[MUNGUS]

sooo much shit to be talked

 

[S.]

sooo much shit to be talked

Don't let us stop ya!

 

[bb7 rider]

this is just way out of control some ppl are just way to smart for me and know so much so its time for someone to shut it down before socket get another orgasm, :wink: Jokes

 

[S.]

Dude, it's all good. I don't mean any disrespect to Balfa (you know I like them!), just trying to make a point that the supposed huge differences in the quality of various frames isn't so huge (nowadays).

 

[bb7 rider]

you have your opinion i have mine,