The Handmade vs Handmade argument

[Fat_Ride]

I can't believe this is still going on... I'm so glad I pulled out!!!

 

[Grip]

I can't believe this is still going on... I'm so glad I pulled out!!!

And I can’t believe I’m jumping in!!!!!

Anyone who's taken the time to read ALL of this thread may have noticed that I've actually DELETED my earlier posts in it... Guess why.

Basically because of the type of arrogant ignorance displayed by this little exchange....

then if machine is the "worlds best welder" why isnt it better then

Read Grip's post you idiot...

yeah read through 6 pages, no,

I mean seriously.... WHY get involved in a topic you obviously know nothing about and try to present yourself as having “knowledge” as opposed to “opinion”? Also... you really do make yourself look pretty stupid when you tell the world you can’t be bothered actually reading something about the very topic you claim to know about simply because there might be too many pages to go through!

Which leads me to the overall reason for me staying well clear of this thread which is I have never seen so much "opinion", "guesswork", and "ill-informed voodoo" laid down on the table in the guise of "fact" in my life!

This is not to say that some posts haven't been spot on... but it annoys the crap out of me when DESPITE being told something that IS factual by an "industry knowledgable/involved" person... people STILL just post their misinformed crap saying the EXACT opposite.... as if it IS "fact"!

An example of this is the ORIGINAL issue over handmade etc in regards to welding... Well hands up out there how many of you could identify a robotic weld over a hand weld? I can.... so please don't crap on about what is and isn't welded by "robot" and which one is “better” unless your hand is in the air. And please don't talk about the hoardes of "bag-of-rice-a-day" welders when in actual fact the vast majority of frames that we get to see in the world have their tubes cut and mitred by CN controlled laser, or water cutting or machining centres and are then TACKED together by "HAND" before being welded by robot.

And FOX... you said.

I'm not a big fan or repairing frames, especially alu frames.

If its out side warranty, then you can go to any fabricator set up for bike frame repairs.

... which really only displays a level of "old fashioned" thinking and ignorance that, in my opinion, makes anything else you say look suspect.

You also said you're "not a big fan or (sic) repairing frames, especially alu (sic) frames." Well thank you for that quite obviously biased opinion. Now... please either back it up with some actual scientific fact OR, at the very least, establish a reputation here on Farkin that may let your words ALONE stand without being questioned. Sorry if this seems harsh, mate... but what exactly is an opinion like that designed to achieve?

And this

If its out side warranty, then you can go to any fabricator set up for bike frame repairs.

... truly confirms that on THIS topic you don't know what you're talking about and PROBABLY explains why you're "not a fan of repairing frames..." .... What happened, Fox? Did you have a frame repaired by "any fabricator" and it didn't work too well?

Well of course not, because the bottom-line is the "any fabricator" that you talk of is just NOT the same thing as a frame repair specialist. Also this "any fabricator" is just NOT going to be "set up for bike frame repairs" because the "any fabricators" of this world tend very much to be "general" fabricators... in that they do any GENERAL fabricating work without specializing in ANY ONE THING.

Of course if they WERE set up for frame repairs then they probably wouldn't be "ANY fabricator"... would they?

So excuse my rant, but this thread has become the perfect example of what happens when people talk through their arses. It started as a discussion ("arguement") on the MERITS of handmade (which everyone can give an opinion on)... it then morphed into a debate on exactly what IS and ISN'T handmade (which is getting a little harder for the average punter to contribute to simply because of the technical aspect of the subject... which means this is probably the point where people should start to sit back and LISTEN more than talk)... and from there it's become an "engineering" topic (which - and lets be honest here - is very difficult for many people to get involved in without looking like dick heads!)

Oh... and the pics of the welds are very nice.... pretty even.... but totally meaningless for the reasons given by Wombat and Socket.

 

[curtisrider]

i had skimmed through it, couldt see anything you had written went through again, couldnt find anything, so steves comment back to me was pointless, i wasnt gonna go through the whole thing in detail to find what he was refering to, because obviously it was gone, maybe you should have looked steve first before you told me too.

 

[curtisrider]

Just took some close up pictured of the welds on some of my bikes, you can tell the difference from how much care is taken and why curtis are so highly known for their great welding

Yes, the Curtis has a beautiful finish, but you're trying to compare the appearence of an aluminum weld, to the appearence of bronze welded steel (yes, I know it's not really welding). I hardly think that's fair.

On another note, have the Curtis guys welded over anodizing or something, or is that just an incredible mask job?

that is the oridginal weld, the frame got sandb;asted and the coated with a clear laquer

 

[S.]

An example of this is the ORIGINAL issue over handmade etc in regards to welding... Well hands up out there how many of you could identify a robotic weld over a hand weld? I can.... so please don't crap on about what is and isn't welded by "robot" and which one is “better” unless your hand is in the air. And please don't talk about the hoardes of "bag-of-rice-a-day" welders when in actual fact the vast majority of frames that we get to see in the world have their tubes cut and mitred by CN controlled laser, or water cutting or machining centres and are then TACKED together by "HAND" before being welded by robot.

And FOX... you said.

I'm not a big fan or repairing frames, especially alu frames.

If its out side warranty, then you can go to any fabricator set up for bike frame repairs.

... which really only displays a level of "old fashioned" thinking and ignorance that, in my opinion, makes anything else you say look suspect.

You also said you're "not a big fan or (sic) repairing frames, especially alu (sic) frames." Well thank you for that quite obviously biased opinion. Now... please either back it up with some actual scientific fact OR, at the very least, establish a reputation here on Farkin that may let your words ALONE stand without being questioned. Sorry if this seems harsh, mate... but what exactly is an opinion like that designed to achieve?

And this

If its out side warranty, then you can go to any fabricator set up for bike frame repairs.

... truly confirms that on THIS topic you don't know what you're talking about and PROBABLY explains why you're "not a fan of repairing frames..." .... What happened, Fox? Did you have a frame repaired by "any fabricator" and it didn't work too well?

Careful there Jon, FOX is Eric Fox, owner of .243 Racing... and given that he gets his stuff produced in Taiwan (and has apparently been to the factories there), I'd say his opinion (in regards to this thread, not frame repairs) probably has more merit than anyone else's.

The fact that he said (and I'm *fairly* sure it was Ska Todd who also said) that nearly all the frames that come out of Taiwan are welded by hand, and that you say they're welded by robot, leads me to GUESS that either you're right about hand tacking/robot welding (altho to me, that seems to be an inefficient way of doing it - setting a frame up in a jig twice would seem to me to be a waste of time/effort)... or that Taiwanese welders are incredibly skilled. Neither situation is unrealistic, IMHO.

 

[Grip]

Well thanks Steve, but I knew who Fox is and it really doesn't matter... I don't need to be careful because owning a business has never, as far as I can tell, automatically made someone an expert on every facet of that industry.

And for what it's worth I certainly don't claim to be any sort of industry expert either, but facts are facts and...

...There are a LOT of bicycle frame and component manufacturing companies in Taiwan/China...

... Some of the smaller/cheaper ones DO use manual welding entirely, but they TEND to be manufacturing in either smaller numbers AND/OR the "cheaper" quality frames (many of which BTW we NEVER get to actually see here in our nice, safe, white, anglo-saxon world)....

... Very little specialised, individual, high-end, BY-HAND manufacturing (in the bike industry) is done in these countries (they are very much set up for mass-production)...

... As costs in Taiwan have increased (you actually CAN'T get someone to work 15 hours a day for a bag of rice a month anymore), along with their reputation for quality (gained in large part from their choice many years ago to AUTOMATE) a number of Taiwanese companies now sub-contract work out to the even cheaper Chinese factories (where full hand welding on the cheaper frames is still fairly common)...

I said - "the vast majority of frames that we get to see in the world have their tubes cut and mitred by CN controlled laser, or water cutting or machining centres and are then TACKED together by "HAND" before being welded by robot" Now just think about that statement using logic for a moment. Here in our cycling backwater of the world we import close to a million bikes a year... the actual figures are 1998 = 745,800... 1999 = 842,900... 2000 = 892,600... 2001 = 848,400... 2002 = 1,128,200... and we are a SMALL market!!!!!!!!!! So have a think about just how many bikes are getting MASS produced in Taiwan FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD (because the Taiwan companies are the largest suppliers of bikes/bits/frames etc) and ask yourself just how, as some people have said, this number of bikes could be produced BY HAND..... a big "Pffft" to that, I think!

As I said above... SOME frames are hand welded... but "the vast majority of frames that we get to see in the world have their tubes cut and mitred by CN controlled laser, or water cutting or machining centres and are then TACKED together by "HAND" before being welded by robot"...

And Steve, the process of robotic welding is not the inefecient double-handling thing you imagine... a typical process might be that tubes are cut and stacked next to someone who is loading them into a conveyered jig, which moves along to someone tacking the frame and then into the robotic "cell" (still in the jig), welded (with far more accuracy, speed and repeatability than a human could ever manage) and then out the other side where they are removed from the jig. Also, it's a fairly standard thing in processes such as this to have adjustable jigs capable of handling many different models AND even the small variations to those models requested by individual customers (many of whom will be requiring small "runs")

And finally... anyone doubting the level of automation used in Taiwanese manufacturing should start exploring on the web around (and then "out from") the site http://www.bicyclesb2b.com/ Also, the Taiwanese bicycle buyers guide is a book about 4" thick and contains a myriad of very high-tech machines developed by the taiwanese specifically for the bike manufacturing market... it's all worth a look.

Curtis.... I owe you an apology. When you wrote that you weren't prepared to read through 6 pages I thought you were having a go at me by suggesting my responses were "6 pages of wasted space". It never occured to me that you actually meant you just didn't want to read back through the 6 pages of this thread. Sorry for jumping on you like that.

 

[S.]

Thanks Grip, having a look through that site now. Only found mention of one robotic welder so far tho

 

[Grip]

Steve... robotic welding is SO common that companies aren't necessarily going to be promoting it as anything special. You'd be amazed at just how many robots are at work even here in OZ.

 

[Grip]

And I have now officially spent way too much time on a subject that for some reason seems to have gotten everyone's back up. I can only imagine it's because everyone wants to be seen as being right... and guess what... I suppose I'm just as guilty so now EVERYONE can be right... because I really just don't care any more.... and am pushing the "Stop watching this topic" button now... and when it comes right down to it who gives a fat rat's clacker anyway? The bottom-line is we ALL know what's good and what isn't and knowing which frame was welded by robot and which wasn't isn't going to make the slightest difference in the world.

So don't bother posting here FOR ME... because I won't be watching this thread... I'll be in the workshop repairing frames BY HAND that MAY or MAY NOT have been originally welded by a robotic machine, for customers who really couldn't care less how ANY of it happens so long as their bike is rolling again real soon.

 

[S.]

Steve... robotic welding is SO common that companies aren't necessarily going to be promoting it as anything special. You'd be amazed at just how many robots are at work even here in OZ.

I believe you, I was just stirring you up.

 

[wombat]

Just took some close up pictured of the welds on some of my bikes, you can tell the difference from how much care is taken and why curtis are so highly known for their great welding

Yes, the Curtis has a beautiful finish, but you're trying to compare the appearence of an aluminum weld, to the appearence of bronze welded steel (yes, I know it's not really welding). I hardly think that's fair.

On another note, have the Curtis guys welded over anodizing or something, or is that just an incredible mask job?

that is the oridginal weld, the frame got sandb;asted and the coated with a clear laquer

Sorry to keep this thread going, but I still can't figure this out:
If they sandblasted it (bead or whatever) I'm pressumung it would have stripped the entire frame, not just the area over the joins. So if they just did that then clearcoated it, you'd just have the bare metal with a clearcoat over it (and damn those finished are sketchy IMO).

From those photos though, it appears as though there's paint/anodizing/some sort of coating on the body of the metal, so how did they do that? Or is that actually the appearence of the raw metal?...Papa, come back!!!

 

[FOX]

Just took some close up pictured of the welds on some of my bikes, you can tell the difference from how much care is taken and why curtis are so highly known for their great welding

Silly,

You just compared three different materials and three different types of welding.

You can't compair those.

FOX

 

[FOX]

And FOX... you said.

I'm not a big fan or repairing frames, especially alu frames.

If its out side warranty, then you can go to any fabricator set up for bike frame repairs.

... which really only displays a level of "old fashioned" thinking and ignorance that, in my opinion, makes anything else you say look suspect.

You also said you're "not a big fan or (sic) repairing frames, especially alu (sic) frames." Well thank you for that quite obviously biased opinion. Now... please either back it up with some actual scientific fact OR, at the very least, establish a reputation here on Farkin that may let your words ALONE stand without being questioned. Sorry if this seems harsh, mate... but what exactly is an opinion like that designed to achieve?

Wow,

Your a grumpy one - sorry if I upset you, but my opinion stands.

A repaired frame will never be a strong as a fresh frame.

I simply do my best to get a damaged frame out of circulation and that rider on a new frame.

My service comes before my product - that's all I meant by my statement.

One of the worst things you can do is repair a 6000S ALu and then re heat treat it - it will fail at the repair! You can get away with it on a 7000S frame, or cromo frame, but the repaired area will become a week piont in the frame.

FOX

PS: you should really change your tone - it isn't very becoming on you.

 

[Rik]

Ooooohhhhhhhh yay, I can forsee this thread taking another twist and a "repair vs replace" thread being split off it pretty damn soon :lol:

 

[Agent Orange]

I disagree FOX i think repairing the frame is fine, and I have done ita number of times, replacing it is jsut stupid.
its like most things i.e windows if they shatter do you replace them?? NO you get some contact and put all the glass back piece by pieceand put the window back up.

when your arm gets ripped off by a wood chipper do you go and get a new one?? NO you sticky tape the old one back on

INFACT im gonna go and snap my frame...just so I can weld it....cause i think its stronger cause it has had more welding than before....if i keep braking it it gets more welding time...




makes sense to me.............................

 

[Ryan]

A repaired frame will never be a strong as a fresh frame.

The mental image of Grip actually, physically shitting out a house brick and screaming "YEEAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!" upon reading that statement will keep me amused for months, if not years.

 

[FOX]

Hey guys,

Don't take my opinions as fact, they are simply my opinions that are baised on my experiences and the experiences of other compamies that I am involved with.

There are so many variables in this indusdry, it's maddening.

If your looking for hard fact - take the time do the researh yourself.

I respect all of your opinions, all I ask is that you respect mine - agree or don't agree, but don't make personal attacks.

You guys should get Pip from Banshee on this board he's a smart ass MF.

FOX

 

[naz]

IMO wouldnt a machine be able to do a more accurate job than a human?