The HiFi thread

[silentbutdeadly]

silentbutdeadly, whats your opinion on things like Audyssey room correction/calibration?

I'm limited to whatever Cambridge Audio uses in their Azur amps, which seems pretty simple (distance and volume) and effective.

From what I have read, some argue that room corrections just masks bad performance/amps, others argue its the bees knees.

...I would argue it's the bee's knees (especially for 2 channel). Having heard both this sub/sat system plus another absolute monster (and almost perfect) system that was managed by DEQX...both according to the same principles...they are (in their own way) spectacularly successful. I don't have such correction capacity at home because I'm not that driven to get that level of purity.

But anyone arguing that its just a way of masking bad gear...is talking out of their arse. I've heard some great gear sound quite ordinary and wondered why before realising that the room in which it sat had features (weird shapes, uniform shapes, lots of fabrics, no fabrics etc) that were probably diminishing the performance.

It's a bit of a kerfuffle to sort out but no more difficult than rebuilding a pair of suspension forks...

 

[MasterOfReality]

Ok, so got my longer cables and shifted the sub. Still need to hide cables.

View of room from entrance:

Sub shifted from here:

To here:

I got out the measuring tape manually adjusted the speaker distances as the CAMCAS system got it a bit wrong. I set the speaker levels by ear.

The improvement in sound is dramatic, however the problem I have is the sub doesn't seem to be matched to the speakers.

The crossover on the sub ranges from 35 Hz to 85 Hz. The frequency response for the Paradigm MilleniaOnes is stated as ±2 dB from 120 Hz - 20 kHz. On forums I see that most people crossover the Paradigms at 100-110 Hz.

If I set the crossover on the sub to max (85 Hz) and then the speakers at 110 Hz in the amp, the sub is very localised to the point of distraction. If I set the crossover in the amp to 80 or 90 Hz the whole system sounds fantastic and the sub blends in very well and it's hard to pick its location with your eyes closed.

My question is will I damage my Paradigms in any way by setting the crossover to 80 or 90 Hz? I played some very bass heavy music with the sub off and couldn't hear any distortion from the Paradigms.

 

[MARKL]

Looking at Paradigm's site they list 'low frequency extension' at 76Hz, on this basis I would not be too concerned about having your amp crossover set a bit lower. Given the nature of the speaker I would set it higher rather than lower so say 90Hz rather than the 80, you said 90 sounded fine. If you are worried email or Facebook Paradigm I am sure they will answer reasonably quickly.

Did you try the sub further in the corner where the side table is?

 

[MasterOfReality]

Looking at Paradigm's site they list 'low frequency extension' at 76Hz, on this basis I would not be too concerned about having your amp crossover set a bit lower. Given the nature of the speaker I would set it higher rather than lower so say 90Hz rather than the 80, you said 90 sounded fine. If you are worried email or Facebook Paradigm I am sure they will answer reasonably quickly.

Did you try the sub further in the corner where the side table is?

Cheers markl, I didn't notice that 76 Hz bit.

I haven't tried right in the corner yet, I'll give that a go tonight.

Last night before I gave up, I played with the levels and stuffed it up so I'll re-run the CAMCAS thing with the microphone to reset it and then do it by ear again.

 

[harmonix1234]

Ok, so got my longer cables and shifted the sub. Still need to hide cables.

View of room from entrance:

Sub shifted from here:

To here:

I got out the measuring tape manually adjusted the speaker distances as the CAMCAS system got it a bit wrong. I set the speaker levels by ear.

The improvement in sound is dramatic, however the problem I have is the sub doesn't seem to be matched to the speakers.

The crossover on the sub ranges from 35 Hz to 85 Hz. The frequency response for the Paradigm MilleniaOnes is stated as ±2 dB from 120 Hz - 20 kHz. On forums I see that most people crossover the Paradigms at 100-110 Hz.

If I set the crossover on the sub to max (85 Hz) and then the speakers at 110 Hz in the amp, the sub is very localised to the point of distraction. If I set the crossover in the amp to 80 or 90 Hz the whole system sounds fantastic and the sub blends in very well and it's hard to pick its location with your eyes closed.

My question is will I damage my Paradigms in any way by setting the crossover to 80 or 90 Hz? I played some very bass heavy music with the sub off and couldn't hear any distortion from the Paradigms.

Keep in mind, speaker ratings are 'recommended tolerences' only and can almost always be pushed a bit on either side of the recommended frequency range and power rating.
Just like a bike that is rated to take a 100 kilo rider, it's not going to explode as soon as a 101 kilo rider jumps on it, it's just recommended.
Speaker manufacturers always offer conservative esitimates.
I have seen scorpion 12" speakers take a full dynamic range, covering sub to inaudible highs and driven at 20-40wrms over what it was 'rated' and it took it fine. For years.

I am currently running my Aurora speakers with a custom crossover rated to give the 6" speaker an extended bottom end by an extra 30hz than it was rated to and I have used that for my recording studio almost daily for five years. Never skipped a beat. And you can hear the lows too, it does reporduce them. Sometimes if you set your crossover lower the speaker won't actually replicate them wanyway and it makes no difference. The diaphragm's physical size will always limit how low the speaker can actually reproduce, even if the signal is being sent to it, it may not be reproduced. That's why subs are usually brought up as they always have more headroom.

 

[MasterOfReality]

Keep in mind, speaker ratings are 'recommended tolerences' only and can almost always be pushed a bit on either side of the recommended frequency range and power rating.
Just like a bike that is rated to take a 100 kilo rider, it's not going to explode as soon as a 101 kilo rider jumps on it, it's just recommended.
Speaker manufacturers always offer conservative esitimates.
I have seen scorpion 12" speakers take a full dynamic range, covering sub to inaudible highs and driven at 20-40wrms over what it was 'rated' and it took it fine. For years.

I am currently running my Aurora speakers with a custom crossover rated to give the 6" speaker an extended bottom end by an extra 30hz than it was rated to and I have used that for my recording studio almost daily for five years. Never skipped a beat. And you can hear the lows too, it does reporduce them. Sometimes if you set your crossover lower the speaker won't actually replicate them wanyway and it makes no difference. The diaphragm's physical size will always limit how low the speaker can actually reproduce, even if the signal is being sent to it, it may not be reproduced. That's why subs are usually brought up as they always have more headroom.

Excellent, thanks for that.

I turned the sub off and played the most bass heavy music I could find in my collection, turned the volume up and didn't detect any distortion so I think I may be safe. That was with the speaker crossover set at 80Hz. Those little Paradigms can produce a bit of bass without the sub but obviously not worth bothering about. Would be good as a 2ch setup for the computer I guess.

Anyway, I'm really happy with the way it turned out, everything blends in well. At least I can hold off on getting another sub for now. Amazing what half decent placement can do!

 

[harmonix1234]

Excellent, thanks for that.

I turned the sub off and played the most bass heavy music I could find in my collection, turned the volume up and didn't detect any distortion so I think I may be safe. That was with the speaker crossover set at 80Hz. Those little Paradigms can produce a bit of bass without the sub but obviously not worth bothering about. Would be good as a 2ch setup for the computer I guess.

Anyway, I'm really happy with the way it turned out, everything blends in well. At least I can hold off on getting another sub for now. Amazing what half decent placement can do!

Placement is everything.
You should check out Stavs book 'Mixing with the mind' and the section on speaker placement.

It's designed specifically for studios, but the same theories apply.
http://mixingwithyourmind.com/

 

[ajay]

Yeah stavs book is great. He's got a very "outside the square" approach.

Chase the flame!!

 

[redbruce]

In my days working in Hi-fi I came across a couple of classical music aficionados that ended up buying subwoofers so that organ pieces such as Saint Sans could be produced accurately without overworking the bass units of the main speakers, they would typically have a very low crossover to the sub though, around 60Hz and those frequencies would never reach the crossover circuit of the speaker.

The biggest benefit of a subwoofer if setup correctly is that all of the work the sub is doing, your speakers are not doing, this allows for more precision and detail in the lower mid and upper bass.

Unless a well designed transmission line speaker. I have a pair of (now slightly modded) IMF TLS80 II's I have had since the mid 80's that produce bass you feel rather than hear.

Makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up with a good quality (especially vinyl) recording.

And yes, it was organ music that was the turning point for me back then (had a series of JBL's before that).

They remain impressive albeit with an 80's signature (less forward mid range) and rather large (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=5895056) compared to contemporary stuff.

On my highish end stereo they never fail to make an impression on visitors.

Just listening to Sergio Altumura on them as we speak.

My stereo system:
IMF TLS 80 II, all drivers refurbished with OEM parts, redesigned and scratch built X overs with air inductors and low tolerance components (originals are rather fragile with under done current capacity on the PCB and iron cored conductors poorly positioned so as to interfere with each other), cabinets re braced, re - and bi wired, bi amped
Two NAD C272 amps
Nakamichi CO3 pre amp
Linn LP12 with Ittock (currently awaiting $$ for upgrade)
Koetsu Black goldline cart (2nd series)
Handmade transformer step up based on matched Peerless 4722 microphone transformers,
Handmade speaker cable and interconnects with mixture of silver and O2 free copper (depending on application).
Rotel RCD 970 BX planned an upgraded for a modded clock and DAC but waiting for $$).
Nakamichi BX-300

I'm probably a bit purist, but surround sound in a HiFi thread? Oh well I guess it is an MTB forum after all.

Probably reflects my thoughts on the subject:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20102207-47/hi-fi-vs-home-theater-speakers-whats-the-difference/

I'm not a complete ludite and we do have a couple of home theater setups (Harmon Kardon, Marrantz, Yamaha, Peavey, other stuff I cant remember) put together by my son and they are great for movies, not my preference for serious music though.

The HifiZine Mini Convertible speaker looks interesting though and maybe scblacks setup is also a practical compromise if you like your music.

 

[Laurie01]

hi guys, thought I'd add my system to this thread. Will post some photos when I get round to taking some decent ones haha

Rega turntable - linn troika MC phono cart - van den hul leads
naim audio CDs 1 CD player
Linn linto phono stage
Naim nac 82 preamp - napsc digital power supply
2x naim hi cap power supply for pre amp
Naim snaxo 2-4 active crossover - hi cap power supply
2x naim nap 140 power amps (soon to be 2x nap 250)
Naim sbl loudspeaker running in active mode
Musical fidelity x dac - Apple TV for streaming spotify while the wife is pottering about the house

The CD player and dac/streamer very rarely get used once you listen to vinyl cd just doesn't cut it any more

 

[pink poodle]

Bit of a grave dig...

Stereo blew up about 9 months ago. The whole bright flash, smoke, flames...my heart in my mouth about house burning down while I am only wearing boxer shots, all the usual.

Spent a long time enjoying the sounds of silence. That was cool. Now a neighbour has a band and a few others have noise kids/dogs, and there's a renno war going on, so it seemed like time to regain the ability to generate a wall of noise again. But...I didn't want to bury a lot of money in something I would hardly use. The answer seemed to be this:




So far so good. Certainly interferes with my ability to think. Just need a microphone so I can join in with my neighbours garage band!

 

[freddofrog]

Strap it to rear pannier rack, über cool haha


---------------
Sent from my iFoam

 

[pink poodle]

Strap it to rear pannier rack, über cool haha


---------------
Sent from my iFoam

it did come with a handy shoulder strap in case i wanted to walk around sharing my love of music with the world. also has mic and guitar input and an echo effect.

might be i could wear it like a jet pack? the flashing ligths would keep the police off my back at night.

 

[MasterOfReality]

I think my bogan neighbours behind us two doors down have one of these set up in their back yard. I can clearly see the flashing speakers at night when they decide its time to kick back, drink piss and then commence domestics.

http://www.sony.com.au/product/shake-5

I happened to see one outside a retravision and it sounded bloody awful. Just all poorly defined bass.

 

[k3n!f]

Hmmm I probably don't belong in a HiFi thread given that I'm very happy with a Bose SoundLink as my main sound system in our apartment.

However, I had a listen to some Bang and Olufsen H6 headphones in the Apple shop and they blew my mind.

http://www.beoplay.com/products/beoplayh6#at-a-glance

They are quite expensive but my last headphones I've had for about 9 years so they'll last a while, and I don't mind paying more for quality.

Anyone have any comments on these, preferably from someone who owns/has used some? Any better alternatives?

 

[Rider_of_Bikes]

Although I haven't seen my hifi system in some 3 years as its still in Canada. It consists of:

Source - Lexicon RT20 Player

Preamp/Processor - Bryston BP-25

Power Amp - Bryston 14b

Mains - Revel Concerta Series F12's

Sub - Revel Concerta Series B12.

All the cabling is handled by Nordost.

It is funny as your system gets better and more transparent the smaller your cd/source selection gets.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[Calvin27]

Gravedig.

Looking for advice on 2 channel amps.

Don't need anything special. Sweeteners would be phono input and sub out (or line out will do).

Currently running B&W685, 2 channel, no sub (possible in future, I dunno), don't have a turntable but might try it out, streaming through Audioengine B1 (one of the better buetooth receivers with inbuilt DAC/optical. Use is for music only (listening room - but don't worry the bike room is bigger and better and there will be a trainer in the music room as well!). Music is mostly 320kbps, some cd quality and possibly will download some lossless or greater formats to play around to see if I can tell the difference.

Currently looking at:

1. Onkyo 9030
2. Marantz PM5005
3. Cambridge SR10
4. Harman Kardon HK3700 stereo

Leaning towards the Onkyo for connectivity and a little more power (65wpc), Cambridge also for power but mostly because I like the look of the amp (flame suit on) and the build feels best out of the lot (hard knobs etc), Harmon because it's cheapest and Marantz because everyone says so.

Is the marantz the go to?

 

[MARKL]

Good to see this thread get a bit of life.

Calvin, my 2c...and this may piss of some of the purists but hey...

1 - they are all good brands and really the difference between amps is relatively small and makes much less of a difference than say different speakers or even setting it up correctly in your home/room. I wouldn't rule out the Marantz on the basis of 40w/channel RMS compared to say the 85w/channel of the Cambridge or 65w Onkyo but I would be leaning towards the more powerful amps at this point unless there was something else that is a decisive factor. I would suggest that based on the specs the Cambridge is the most powerful amp in the group it has by far the highest total power consumption in the group (and you need electricity to make power).

2 - think about how you want to use your system...you said you want to use lossless formats and a turntable possibly - turntables can be fun but digital formats are king because they are easy to live with and in the real day-to-day world the quality is better.

3 - Connectivity - after you have decided how you want to use your system making sure you have the connectivity to support it now and into the future. For example my main amp is a Yamaha and has a dock for Ipod, I have a 120gig Ipod classic that sits in the dock 24/7 with music in lossless format. I can fully control the system from anywhere in the house from my Iphone or Ipad (android phones work as well). I have a second set of speakers set up on the back deck as a second zone that I can listen to and control when i am out there working on the bike. I think all of those amps have an A/B speaker set up, maybe it would be nice to have some tunes in the bike room as well?

4 - If the connectivity wasn't important I would go the Cambridge, if connectivity is important I would look a bit more into that side of things - good audio gear lasts a long time (see below), enjoy it.

 

[MARKL]

I now have a CD player in my bedroom...In 1987 I bought a CD player a Yamaha CDX-400, it took all of my paper round money, some time in the 90's it stopped working and ended up in a cupboard at mum & dads. Anyway years ago I picked up from the folks place and it sat in various boxes or shelves waiting to be thrown out...I went to throw it out just before Christmas, before I did I thought I should check it out and see if it now works, it turned on OK but still didn't work:doh:...I was about to toss it when when i decided to have a look inside. After a bit of poking around I found two sets of pulleys that didn't have drive belts (glofied rubber bands) anyhow $10 bucks later working CD player :third:

The rest of the bedroom set up is...
Amp - Yamaha - RXV 890 (purchased in 94) - my original home theater amp
Speakers - Rock Solid - these were B&W's attempt at the Bose little speaker market, got them cheap in the early 90's - used to use them as rear speakers for home theater set up, nice speaker for the bedroom.

 

[Calvin27]

I wouldn't rule out the Marantz on the basis of 40w/channel RMS compared to say the 85w/channel of the Cambridge or 65w Onkyo but I would be leaning towards the more powerful amps at this point unless there was something else that is a decisive factor.

think about how you want to use your system...you said you want to use lossless formats and a turntable possibly - turntables can be fun but digital formats are king because they are easy to live with and in the real day-to-day world the quality is better.

Connectivity - after you have decided how you want to use your system making sure you have the connectivity to support it now and into the future.

The marantz is last on the list because it lacks both sub out and phono inputs. This means I can't play with vinyl for cheap (need pre amp also) not that I think it will get very far. It's mostly to play dads old records and possibly some classics like beatles. Who am I kidding, it's mostly for show and nostaglia! The sub out is important to me because there is some music I'd like a little more bass - mostly pop, for classical and guitar instrumentals, I'd not bother with it and leave it turned off. I could use line out/rec out, but then it would be a pita for volume control.

99% of the music will be streamed through the audioengine B1 which does up to 24bit (and upsamples, not that it should make a huge difference in quality). Even cds will be played through laptop as the receiver supports lossless and the DAC is pretty decent.

I have no plans for connectivity. This will be a dedicated audio setup for basically the rest of its life. There is other AVR stuff that might happen but will be independent of this.

Anyway I am leaning towards the Onkyo 9030 at this stage but kicking myself after overthinking it and missing the 15% off ebay sale! this model however has no digital input or DAC. Not sure how I feel about that. I've run media from my ps3 through hdmi and optical and imo the optical, which uses the AVR dac, sucks like nothing else. apparently the ps3 has good dac in it though. The reason why I'm not going ps3 is because networking is slow and needs a monitor - this room will be monitor free.