thredbo told to shorten track !
- Thread starter alpasue
- Start date
Just thought i'd throw my 2 cents at this Thread, People might not agree, but these are my thoughts.
To do with the track length..... I personally dont care if a track is 2 minutes long or 10 minutes long, if it's fun to ride and flows good, then that's all im looking for. I think the track would be better at 5 minutes in length for the fastest times, but cutting out the fire road isn't the way to do this. Ive always enjoyed all parts of the track at Thredbo with two exceptions... (sorry I don't know the names of the sections)
1- near the top, after the first fireroad crossing and dropping into the super tight left hander...all the tight switchbacks after that are just rubbish, and if your looking for a UCI standard course, then cut that section out and build something straight down the slope.
2 - the 2 massive long flat straights under the chair lift after you come out of the main tree section....why not cut that massive flat traverse and keep the flow going?
I know there are lots of limitations with where they can build trails at Thredbo, but those are the 2 areas where I would be looking to change things up. It couldn't be difficult to make those sections environmentally sustainable either. That way It would make the track a whole lot better and get it under 5 minutes.
While these races are a good opportunity to gain UCI points for guys planning to travel OS and race some races, this is only for a few guys, most Pro riders couldn't care less about chasing UCI points in the offseason. the full Thredbo run has never been is issue before for making it a UCI race with points, so why the issue now? The only thing to consider when designing/building a track is how good is this going to be to ride? Not what will the UCI think of it. If we want racing to continue growing we need to think of what riders are looking for, and not anything to do with the UCI or their points.
The only reason I ever do national rounds is to see some friends that I don't get to see very often, and have some fun. And the top fire road is always tons of fun. The DH track at Thredbo in its current state is pretty played out and stale, and while the 4X track was fun at last year at Oceanias, being presented with a 1995/ pull lever/manual gate for the 4X Oceania Champs (a race which is meant to be run under strict UCI guidelines, to which that gate setup was far from adhering to) was a bit of a slap in the face.
So UCI/thredbo, work towards freshening up the DH track for all to enjoy, and stick to your rules, and I'll be back. But for this year, im staying at home.
To do with the track length..... I personally dont care if a track is 2 minutes long or 10 minutes long, if it's fun to ride and flows good, then that's all im looking for. I think the track would be better at 5 minutes in length for the fastest times, but cutting out the fire road isn't the way to do this. Ive always enjoyed all parts of the track at Thredbo with two exceptions... (sorry I don't know the names of the sections)
1- near the top, after the first fireroad crossing and dropping into the super tight left hander...all the tight switchbacks after that are just rubbish, and if your looking for a UCI standard course, then cut that section out and build something straight down the slope.
2 - the 2 massive long flat straights under the chair lift after you come out of the main tree section....why not cut that massive flat traverse and keep the flow going?
I know there are lots of limitations with where they can build trails at Thredbo, but those are the 2 areas where I would be looking to change things up. It couldn't be difficult to make those sections environmentally sustainable either. That way It would make the track a whole lot better and get it under 5 minutes.
While these races are a good opportunity to gain UCI points for guys planning to travel OS and race some races, this is only for a few guys, most Pro riders couldn't care less about chasing UCI points in the offseason. the full Thredbo run has never been is issue before for making it a UCI race with points, so why the issue now? The only thing to consider when designing/building a track is how good is this going to be to ride? Not what will the UCI think of it. If we want racing to continue growing we need to think of what riders are looking for, and not anything to do with the UCI or their points.
The only reason I ever do national rounds is to see some friends that I don't get to see very often, and have some fun. And the top fire road is always tons of fun. The DH track at Thredbo in its current state is pretty played out and stale, and while the 4X track was fun at last year at Oceanias, being presented with a 1995/ pull lever/manual gate for the 4X Oceania Champs (a race which is meant to be run under strict UCI guidelines, to which that gate setup was far from adhering to) was a bit of a slap in the face.
So UCI/thredbo, work towards freshening up the DH track for all to enjoy, and stick to your rules, and I'll be back. But for this year, im staying at home.
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T-Rex
Template denier
Hi Simon,
A couple of thoughts on the above - Thredbo is closer to a 6 minute track than 7 minutes, I think 6:14ish would be about the top time in it's current configuration. If you cut out the fire road and start above Snowgums, you take out about 30 seconds, so it's still not within the guidelines, but obviously it's a bit closer. I've never seen a race started at Kareela Hut, but there's not much space off the track, and with a couple of hundred riders standing around waiting for their race run and trampling slow growing native vegitation in a national park, you might find Parks and/or KT have an issue with that. If you are going to insist on shortening it at this late stage, starting from the top of Snowgums is about the only sensible place as it is well proven.
Hi Jared,
Not wanting to be an apologist for Thredbo here, but getting track changes through KT, who hold the head lease, and The National Parks people, is a really slow and painful process. KT in particular can be very akward. I understand they (South East) have a number of submissions in play right now, but don't hold your breath, certainly not for this summer. But maybe next summer......and it will be good to see you back down south!
Yep, i've heard many times how hard it is to get new stuff built at Thredbo, but seeing how badly eroded the tight switchback section is, all parties must be keen to see something change, to let it regenerate, so hopefully it all works out.
More flow to a track = less heavy braking = less damage to the land.
I think 99% of people who have raced at Thredbo agree, that hill has more potential than any other hill in Australia
More flow to a track = less heavy braking = less damage to the land.
I think 99% of people who have raced at Thredbo agree, that hill has more potential than any other hill in Australia
What is the purpose of the national series? To start with, believe me it is not at this point in time to make a profit.
No easy answer to that but I wouldn't say it is necessarily to please the riders. The national series is really an elite level race series to provide a venue for Australia's top riders to race, improve their ability, ready themselves for international competition and be judged upon for national team selections. Yes, it should please the riders but that is not its sole purpose. Club level and many private promoter races are designed to please riders as their primary goal in most cases.
In my opinion the perfect race track length is 3-3.5 minutes, but really an awesome 2.5 minute track beats the hell out of an average 6 min track (and that is not in any way a comment on Thredbo). In terms participant numbers I wouldn't expect us to hit the highs of 2007 this year. One of the main reason Thredbo gets such high numbers is chair lift and location not necessarily the trail itself.
Out of interest, was the actual trail to be raced publicised anywhere or did people just presume what it would be?
No easy answer to that but I wouldn't say it is necessarily to please the riders. The national series is really an elite level race series to provide a venue for Australia's top riders to race, improve their ability, ready themselves for international competition and be judged upon for national team selections. Yes, it should please the riders but that is not its sole purpose. Club level and many private promoter races are designed to please riders as their primary goal in most cases.
In my opinion the perfect race track length is 3-3.5 minutes, but really an awesome 2.5 minute track beats the hell out of an average 6 min track (and that is not in any way a comment on Thredbo). In terms participant numbers I wouldn't expect us to hit the highs of 2007 this year. One of the main reason Thredbo gets such high numbers is chair lift and location not necessarily the trail itself.
Out of interest, was the actual trail to be raced publicised anywhere or did people just presume what it would be?
T-Rex
Template denier
I didn't see it published anywhere, but I think based on past history of National and State series races people (reasonably) assumed that it would be run on the full track. In recent years it's only the CORC club race and Interschools that are run on the shortened track. The CORC club race is run on the shorter track because at the time of year (November/December) the Kozi Express chair is down for maintenence. Interschools was run last year without the fire road because of concerns of lesser skilled riders axing themselves on a fast and loose part of the track. Obviously neither of these would be considerations for a National round this weekend.
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CRIK
NSWMTB
At this stage people saying the race will start at Kareela Hut, as far as I know, is just assumption.
I am still waiting on a reply to my e-mail to MTBA asking the question. However, as I said earlier, I have the program from Shepparton and it clearly says Thredbo will start at the bottom of the fire road, at the beginning of the single track. Would be really good to know for sure.
I mostly agree with you Frenchie,
It's good to know the national series isn't about making a profit, that's how it should be!
The National Series Should be an elite level race series to provide a venue for Australia's top riders to race, improve their ability and ready themselves for international competition, but it should be far from the main priority. To be honest, the Thredbo track (or any track in Australia really) isn't doing much towards getting riders ready for a modern day DH World Cup track. Many things would need to change with the courses for that to be true.
If too much emphasis is put on preparing for international competition, the series would then be catering to about 25 riders. So what about the other 250-350 riders? If the national series is all about elite competition then the series will ultimately suffer in the long term.
If there's one answer from this thread, it's that the majority of people are against the shortening of the track, and thats who you should be listening to if the series is to grow, and im right there with them until there is a better reason for the track shortening, other than to meet UCI rules, which are EXTREMELY inconsistant, and never inforced when it comes to track length.
It's good to know the national series isn't about making a profit, that's how it should be!
The National Series Should be an elite level race series to provide a venue for Australia's top riders to race, improve their ability and ready themselves for international competition, but it should be far from the main priority. To be honest, the Thredbo track (or any track in Australia really) isn't doing much towards getting riders ready for a modern day DH World Cup track. Many things would need to change with the courses for that to be true.
If too much emphasis is put on preparing for international competition, the series would then be catering to about 25 riders. So what about the other 250-350 riders? If the national series is all about elite competition then the series will ultimately suffer in the long term.
If there's one answer from this thread, it's that the majority of people are against the shortening of the track, and thats who you should be listening to if the series is to grow, and im right there with them until there is a better reason for the track shortening, other than to meet UCI rules, which are EXTREMELY inconsistant, and never inforced when it comes to track length.
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T-Rex
Template denier
I assume you mean on the fire road between Kareela Hut and the chair lift? That's about the only practical place to do it in that area. And assuming the weather is OK, I think you will need to further shorten the track somewhere else to make it under 5 minutes, if that's your intention.
And I seriously hope it doesn't rain before my race run - it's nice to be able to be in a sheltered area at the top of the chairlift while you are waiting for your run.....
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CRIK
NSWMTB
As my son's just said, that is absolute BS, and I totally agree.
I have entered 2 riders at a cost of $360 on the understanding that they would be racing from at least the start of the single track. I hope the Chief Commissaire knows what the majority of people think about starting at Kareela Hut.
I will be e-mailing MTBA, again, to voice my disapproval. I hope other people do the same.
norcorulz
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Not trying to come across as rude Simon, but why wait until the last few days before the race. I thought it would make more sense to do it at least a month before the race.
I know for a fact that a lot of riders, along with myself are not happy with the way MTBA has gone about this. If this sport is to continue to expand, MTBA need to come across as more professional and consult the riders when doing controversial things like this.
Jared summed it up very well. MTBA, take note to the above statement by Jared.
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Well there you go folks ! this must be due to the new mtba people that are running this years series ! jared has made some great points about the track and racing and the uci rules, it would be great if there was two tracks up at thredbo as every beginner in the country has ride the same track as kovarik at the moment ! se-mtb and thredbo would not want a hardcore world cup track for people to learn on, its a hard one when there is only one way down ! Who are the downhill representitives for the mtba if simon french is in tasmania ? who walks the course and who decides this last minute change ? me and the 300 other racers want answers.
[QUOTEWho are the downhill representitives for themtba if simon french is in tasmania ? who walks the course and who decides this last minute change ? me and the 300 other racers want answers.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see why living in Tasmania Disqualifies me from being DH rep for MTBA...For those that don't understand the role, I act as an unpaid representative for you guys. I am expected to attend the majority of national races at my own expense- which I do and have done for nearly 15 years now. The role of course walking is not me- this is the MTBA tech delegate, a paid position. they walk the course long before the event. The chief commissaire only arrives in the days prior to the event, they have final say over the course.
I provide feedback during events I attend, I provide a post race report, I attend various meetings where I have some input and I act as a representative to you guys. I have put all your feedback to MTBA today, but I will say that I largely disagree with the notion that people are being 'ripped off' for having to race a shorter course...To me it is the quality of the track that counts, not necessarily its length.
I fail to see why living in Tasmania Disqualifies me from being DH rep for MTBA...For those that don't understand the role, I act as an unpaid representative for you guys. I am expected to attend the majority of national races at my own expense- which I do and have done for nearly 15 years now. The role of course walking is not me- this is the MTBA tech delegate, a paid position. they walk the course long before the event. The chief commissaire only arrives in the days prior to the event, they have final say over the course.
I provide feedback during events I attend, I provide a post race report, I attend various meetings where I have some input and I act as a representative to you guys. I have put all your feedback to MTBA today, but I will say that I largely disagree with the notion that people are being 'ripped off' for having to race a shorter course...To me it is the quality of the track that counts, not necessarily its length.
I think it's more the issue that some people had a certain expectation in their mind when they registered for the race.
Changing that expectation, regardless of whether one person thinks it is the quality of the course not the quantity, or whether another person thinks the fire road is a good or bad thing to include, raises some problems.
To take payment for a product, and then change that product after payment has been received, is not the right way to run a business. There should have been much more notice of this change, especially considering (by the sounds of it) the change isn't due to conditions outside the control of the operators (i.e. weather, change in laws etc.).
I don't really like the fire trail, but I love the top section right after it. I've just fronted up my race fee, and I would love to know whether I get to race the full track or not. But I don't want to know when I get there, I want to know now.
Either way, sounds like you have some healthy feedback to bring to MTBA!
Changing that expectation, regardless of whether one person thinks it is the quality of the course not the quantity, or whether another person thinks the fire road is a good or bad thing to include, raises some problems.
To take payment for a product, and then change that product after payment has been received, is not the right way to run a business. There should have been much more notice of this change, especially considering (by the sounds of it) the change isn't due to conditions outside the control of the operators (i.e. weather, change in laws etc.).
I don't really like the fire trail, but I love the top section right after it. I've just fronted up my race fee, and I would love to know whether I get to race the full track or not. But I don't want to know when I get there, I want to know now.
Either way, sounds like you have some healthy feedback to bring to MTBA!
cozwa
Likes Dirt
Agree'd, not sure why something the caliber of a euro WC track hasn't been built there, it beckons for an aussie version of schladming.
Because of the strict regulations and procedures set out by KT and the National Parks. Seeing as Thredbo sits in the Kosciuzko (sp?) National Park, any developments must be put through these two governing bodies. Mountain biking trails can be seen to possess a potential to distrupt, damage and destroy fragile alpine plants, and cutting a new track into the hillside would be devestating in their eyes. Their reluctance and strict procedures (and in my opinion, it is mostly justified) to allow the development of anthing (let alone an enitre new track especially of a euro WC calibre) is what limits Thredbo to only 1 track.
But yes, it most certainly has the potential to be great.
ja_har
Likes Dirt
What rankles me is that KT / NPWS wont give permission for any changes to the exisitng singletrack but it seems easy enough to get permision to dig up most of the hill putting in many kms of brand new snowmaking lines....
powermutant
Likes Dirt
UCI:
4.3.006 The length of the course and the duration of the event are determined as follows:
Minimum Maximum
Course length 1500 m 3500 m
Duration of the event 2 minutes 5 minutes
A race on a course where the time taken is below the minimum or exceeds the maximum set above
may only be held if it is the subject of an exemption issued by the UCI mountain bike commission.
Will Thredbo still make the criteria? Even at less than 5 minutes I suspect that the track is longer than 3500m? I suspect some of the WC tracks are too. Why not just apply for an exemption? Given the previous rounds failed to meet this criteria, are riders still eligible for UCI points?
More importantly for me, can the NSW State DH co-ordinator confirm that the state round will start at the top of the hill?
4.3.006 The length of the course and the duration of the event are determined as follows:
Minimum Maximum
Course length 1500 m 3500 m
Duration of the event 2 minutes 5 minutes
A race on a course where the time taken is below the minimum or exceeds the maximum set above
may only be held if it is the subject of an exemption issued by the UCI mountain bike commission.
Will Thredbo still make the criteria? Even at less than 5 minutes I suspect that the track is longer than 3500m? I suspect some of the WC tracks are too. Why not just apply for an exemption? Given the previous rounds failed to meet this criteria, are riders still eligible for UCI points?
More importantly for me, can the NSW State DH co-ordinator confirm that the state round will start at the top of the hill?
VTSS350
Likes Bikes and Dirt
I think the oveall length of the track top to bottom is 4.2k so it wouldnt take much to make the length comply.
I dont really care what length the track will be on the day. Just happy to be racing!